Parent of Worried Daughter with Relatively Interesting Stats--Please Help!

Parents Forum
81

<p>"As one who grew up in the NE and went to college in New England, I know that the winters are long, hard and dreary." </p>

<p>I grew up in the northeast, too, and love the winters there. They are beautiful, mystical, and magical. I know Middlebury well and can think of almost nowhere else I'd rather live. I recognize that reasonable people may disagree, but it's possible that the OP's daughter truly likes that area, cold winters or not. (New England winters there aren't so very cold. Just ask any native Vermonter.)</p>

82

<p>"If your daughter doesn't want to go to UW or Reed, she really has no business applying to those schools. </p>

<p>By those standards, no one would ever apply to their safeties!"</p>

<p>I don't agree. A safety usually is not a student's top choice, but it still should be a place where the student would happily go if they had no other choice.</p>

<p>My older S's safety actually was his second choice college, and he happily went there when his first choice didn't give him the merit aid he wanted. It had many similar characteristics (regional location, size, strong athletics -- his top criteria) to his first choice college, just was easier to get into. </p>

<p>If a student really doesn't want to attend college on the West Coast, then she should not have a West Coast college as her safety no matter how much that West Coast college meets her other criteria.</p>

<p>If I had had to go to my undergrad safety, I would have happily gone there (of course I still would have been disappointed at not getting into my first choice colleges.). The college wasn't as prestigious as my other choices, but otherwise, it fitted my criteria for what I wanted out of a college environment.</p>

<p>Indeed, I ended up happily going to grad school at the place that was my undergrad safety school. It had an excellent program in my major, and was close to the top of my list for grad school. The only reason another school was more desireable to me was cost.</p>

83

<p>Everyone is hostile because this board is always hostile to what they percieve as prestige whores. The facts are good for the OP to have, but he had them many, many posts ago.</p>

<p>On a different front, I did what Calmom suggests and did not apply to a true safety. I knew a gap year and second try would be the better choice for me. I got into my schools and still decided to do the gap year. This may not be for everyone , but it should be considered.</p>

84

<p>Realize that doing a gap year after being rejected doesn't guarantee that one will be able to get into those colleges.</p>

<p>Gap years can be wonderful particularly as ways of learning more about the world and oneself before going to college, but they aren't ways of guaranteeing entrance upon reapplication to colleges where one has been rejected.</p>

<p>And everyone isn't being hostile to the OP.</p>

85

<p>
[quote]
If a student really doesn't want to attend college on the West Coast, then she should not have a West Coast college as her safety no matter how much that West Coast college meets her other criteria.

[/quote]
Are you offering to finance the educations for the 95% of kids who are attending their in-state publics simply because that's the best that they can afford? </p>

<p>The kid lives in Seattle. Like most kids, she would like to go far away to college. Like most kids, her best choice in the end may be her in-state public. She is fortunate to live in a state where the flagship university would meet her educational goals very well.</p>

86

<p>
[quote]
Everyone is hostile because this board is always hostile to what they percieve as prestige whores.

[/quote]
I don't think so. </p>

<p>I think its all about the test scores. </p>

<p>I think what sets people off is the audacity of someone with SAT score "in the 600s" of applying to an Ivy. </p>

<p>If it was about prestige, they wouldn't be jumping all over the OP's daughter for listing U of Washington as a safety -- which, last time I checked, wasn't a prestige school. </p>

<p>Everyone here is so obsessed with scores that a huge fiction has been created whereby the word "median" has been turned into "minimum"; it is assumed that the bottom range of scores are filled with URMs, athletes, and legacies; and people have pretty much created a new religion around the selection of a safety.</p>

87

<p>"If it was about prestige, they wouldn't be jumping all over the OP's daughter for listing U of Washington as a safety -- which, last time I checked, wasn't a prestige school. "</p>

<p>Not true at all. The OP says that his D doesn't want to go to college on the West Coast. Consequently, University of Washington is not a good safety for her.</p>

<p>Her test scores are low for most of the colleges on her list. Other factors that work against her are being Asian with Asian-centered ECs as well as typical Asian ECs like music, and coming from a well educated family.</p>

<p>Since none of us read tea leaves, we don't know whether she'll get into the colleges on her list. We can say, however, that her list is very top heavy and she doesn't have a true safety -- a college that she knows she'll get into, can afford and believes that she would enjoy going to. Consequently, most of us are advising that the D add more match and safety schools, and also make sure that her safeties are not only places where she knows she'll get accepted, but also are in locations that she'd like to live in during college.</p>

<p>Me: "If a student really doesn't want to attend college on the West Coast, then she should not have a West Coast college as her safety no matter how much that West Coast college meets her other criteria. "</p>

<p>Another poster's response: "Are you offering to finance the educations for the 95% of kids who are attending their in-state publics simply because that's the best that they can afford? "</p>

<p>That would be ridiculous, so of course that's not what I'm saying. It's also not the situation here in which the father says the family will manage to finance the D's education wherever she goes. </p>

<p>I have repeatedly said here and elsewhere that a safety is only a safety if one knows one will get accepted, can afford to go there, and would happily go there.</p>

<p>Students who can only afford in-state publics need to be realistic about their options. If they honestly can not be happy going to school in state, then they need to do something like move elsewhere and qualify for out of state residency (which can take years depending on the state) or they need to find a way be satisfied with their options and go to the public college in state. This may include doing a study abroad program during their undergraduate years or doing out of state internships or finding a way to go to graduate school out of state.</p>

88

<p>I would look at American University and their school of foreign relations as her safety. Their campus is right at the emd of Embassy Row, and Wednesdays are internship days for kids with many working at the various embassies just down the block. Their merit aid for someone like your D could be really good.</p>

89

<p>
[quote]
The OP says that his D doesn't want to go to college on the West Coast.

[/quote]
No, the OP never said that. He said, She wants to stay away from public schools and the west coast in general. That means that she is not looking for other west coast suggestions, beyond the in-state flagship public. He does not want us suggesting names of other public schools or other west coast schools, because IF she doesn't go to UW, then she wants to go to an out-of-state private.</p>

<p>He also said that she didn't want a women's college, but I pitched Barnard anyway because there are a lot of boys there.</p>

90

<p>In his second post, the OP says his daughter is most interested
'in prestige" and "reputation." Such a comment would make anyone a target here.</p>

91

<p>"No, the OP never said that. He said, She wants to stay away from public schools and the west coast in general."</p>

<p>To me, that means she doesn't want to go to a public school and she doesn't want to go to West Coast college. Consequently, University of Washington doesn't fit her criteria. I'd bet that she's applying to Wash U only because people have told her that she needs a "safety," but she doesn't seriously think that will be her only option. </p>

<p>I've seen lots of students who apply to their state flagship as a safety when they really want to go out of state to private colleges. When such students apply to top heavy lists and get into only their in-state public, they are very unhappy. Meanwhile, if they had applied to out of state privates that were safety and match schools, they would have likely been able to go to a college that met some of their desires: out of state and private. </p>

<p>They also may have had the bonus of getting merit aid or other perks because students who are good enough to consider applying to top colleges usually have the ability to get nice merit aid from their safety and match colleges.</p>

92

<p>Then I think you misinterpreted his statement because his first post listed UW and Reed as safeties. I am quite sure that he is aware that those 2 schools are on the west coast; that UW is public -- and he did not mean by his post to have those choices attacked because they don't meet the critiria for other schools she is looking for.</p>

<p>This kid is going to have a hard time finding a true private school safety that offers a strong Chinese language program -- and if she wants to pursue her studies of Arabic as well, its going to get even harder. I know, because I already went through all of that with trying to find Russian programs. They just don't exist for less-common languages. I doubt that the OP's duaghter is willing to sacrifice her primary academic goals in order to have the out-of-state private she prefers.</p>

93

<p>calmom- I think hostile is kind of strong
I admit my eyebrows went up with "prestige and east coast" being linked-
along with the volunteering when she was "5".</p>

<p>However- Reed has a 44% admit rate- although it has lower minority student numbers than some other schools on west coast- but I don't think a 44% admit rate, combined with someone who doesn't "love it", is what makes a safety.</p>

<p>Also since I dont know her, I don't know how she comes across-
I do know kids, who are more interested in grades, than learning,( comparing notes on highest graders for example) and in adding activities that sound good- or that your parents push you into.
Scratch that- I went back and looked at her activities and I think I might know who she is - although I haven't dug out my copy of the Pen.
I would say that she is very personable and friendly and doesn't come across as a "prestige whore"
If I were an admission rep- i would say she had a good shot at those schools but that is not saying the same as a "good bet" or a sure thing</p>

<p>Thank goodness that my D and her friends have pretty realistic expectations about aid & the breadth of choices that are available- because I hear from the counselors that they are concerned- when they see someone applying to 9 schools and they all are on a par with Swarthmore or Amherst or even Northwestern.
It isnt that the counselors or even we think your kid couldnt be great at those schools. It isn't that we are sure they would never get in to any of those schools. Its more that there are so many kids applying to the same schools, that someone , somewhere is going to be really disappointed if they only have on their list, the same schools that the top 10% of students across the country are applying to.
Especially if- they don't love them for * themselves* but because they are recognizable to their cousin in Tokyo</p>

<p>I apologize if i have seemed overly critical- but * cruel to be kind?*
I didnt think I was being harsh- but realistic, which since this is pretty much the tail end of applications to those schools- realistic is good.</p>

<p>I would rather- that someone be clear about what they think- I think too often people IRL, people say one thing and think another.
That isn't very helpful IMO</p>

<p>I think the other thing that set my antenae off was the Chinese combined with the very recent addition of Arabic- as those are now the "hot" subjects to study- just as getting an MBA or a computing engineering degree used to be.- that and the "kicks and giggles"
applying to college is serious stuff darn it! you arent supposed to be having fun!
JK :D</p>

<p><a href="http://www.casl.umd.edu/nflp/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.casl.umd.edu/nflp/&lt;/a>

[quote]
ABOUT NFLP
Working under the auspices of the University of Maryland's Center for Advanced Study of Language, the National Flagship Language Program (NFLP) awards financial support to U.S. universities recognized as leaders in the field of language education. Through major partnerships between the National Security Education Program (NSEP) and higher education, NFLP seeks to produce university graduates, across disciplines, with a "superior" level of proficiency in languages critical to U.S. national security. Currently, NFLP has awarded grants to support the teaching and learning of: Arabic, Chinese, Korean, Persian, and Russian.

[/quote]
</p>

94

<p>"Then I think you misinterpreted his statement because his first post listed UW and Reed as safeties. I am quite sure that he is aware that those 2 schools are on the west coast; that UW is public -- and he did not mean by his post to have those choices attacked because they don't meet the critiria for other schools she is looking for."</p>

<p>He asked for advice. When several of us said that UW is not a good safety for his D since she wants private schools outside of the West Coast, that isn't attacking him: That's giving him the advice he requested.</p>

<p>One of the big advantages of an anonymous board is that people are more likely to be honest than many people will be in face to face discussions. </p>

<p>I imagine that it is difficult to find private colleges offering Chinese and Arabic, but if his D definitely wants a private college, it would be worth it to look for a private college that meets her needs and also could be a safety. Far better to invest the time now in doing that than to have a daughter who's sobbing come April, not just worried in the fall.</p>

95

<p>A quick Google found that Drew University in N.J. offers Chinese and Arabic. Google probably can find other private collleges that offer those languages. Drew is one that could work as a safety and may give her merit aid.</p>

<p>Keep in mind with all of her applications this year that due to the large cohort of h.s. seniors, college admission this year will be more competitive than it was last year, which was the most competitive in history. This situation is supposed to become more competitive each year until about 2011.</p>

96

<p>NSM, Drew offers only 2 years of Chinese & Arabic, beginning & intermediate. It does not offer a major in either Chinese language or Arabic language, though there is a "Chinese studies" major. There is ONE Chinese professor on their faculty, who is not tenured; there are NO Arabic language professors on their faculty, which means that they probably rely on adjunct professors or outside lecturers to teach their Arabic langauge courses.</p>

<p>This is what I mean by checking the data. If someone who already has attained a certain level of proficiency in a language wants to consider a major and wants to develop fluency, then they need to find a college that has a strong faculty and offers opportunities for 4 years of study in the language. </p>

<p>I didn't research Chinese or Arabic. I did research Russian, so I know what the difficulties are in finding a strong program in less common languages. There probably are a few less-selective, safety or match level colleges that offers strong programs in certain languages, but there are not many. It takes funding and a critical mass of interested students to sustain a strong program, and for foreign languages that tends to happen more often at public universities with graduate departments as opposed to private colleges focused only on undergraduate education, in part because foreign graduate students are very useful to have on hand to help with teaching the introductory courses to undergraduates. </p>

<p>It is not hard to do the research, but Googling to see which colleges offer a given language is not the way to do it. I assume that this student has a very strong interest in becoming fluent in Chinese, since she is applying to Huntsman. I don't think that she has much of a chance of getting into Huntsman -- I looked into Huntsman for my daughter and knew that it was too difficult for her, because of their math proficiency requirements. I don't think a kid with low 600s on the math SAT II will make the cut. (I think that Huntsman is one of those programs where scores probably do count for a lot) </p>

<p>But then again, she can't get in if she doesn't apply -- so she might as well give it her best shot.</p>

97

<p>"NSM, Drew offers only 2 years of Chinese & Arabic, beginning & intermediate. It does not offer a major in either Chinese language or Arabic language, though there is a "Chinese studies" major. There is ONE Chinese professor on their faculty, who is not tenured; there are NO Arabic language professors on their faculty, which means that they probably rely on adjunct professors or outside lecturers to teach their Arabic langauge courses."</p>

<p>True. I only used that as an example after about 2 minutes of Googling. If I were applying or if my child were applying, clearly I'd spend more time doing the research and analying the colleges' web sites. My point is that using a search engine can give you the info that one needs.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, most students end up switching majors at least two times, so students and parents should keep that in mind when they make college decisions strictly on the basis of what a student thinks they want to study.</p>

<p>Other things for the OP to consider are whether any colleges offer study abroad programs that could help the student accomplish her linguistic goals. If one wants to become fluent, the only way to do that is through living abroad anyway. I know people who studied foreign languages for years, and did well as undergraduate majors in those languages, but didn't become fluent until living abroad after college. </p>

<p>If it ends up that except for the very top colleges only large public institutions offer the language options the D wants, then D probably would need to reconsider whether she really wants to eliminate public universities.</p>

<p>The OP hasn't said what the D has against public universities, but if it's class size, many such as University of Michigan and University of Maryland have excellent honors colleges and other learning environments that allow students to get smaller classes and other opportunities such as mentoring that are similar to what private colleges offer while having the additional benefit of having more course options and majors than private colleges have.</p>

98

<p>I think the reason that OP's daughter isn't looking at out-of-state publics is that she is already planning to apply to U of Washington, which has very strong language offerings. (That's what attracted my daughter, though unfortunately we neglected to research financial aid policies before she applied; no grant money available to out-of-state applicants, unfortunately).</p>

<p>She probably doesn't need to have more than one UW-like college to look at. </p>

<p>The OP didn't say so, but my guess is that with the mom's multiple business enterprises, the family doesn't qualify for financial aid, and they probably does not make a lot of sense for them to pay a lot more money for an out-of-state public that has all of the same drawbacks as their in-state public. Why pay a premium for the same commodity? </p>

<p>That may also be the rationale behind the look for "prestige" and "reputation". I know that it is also heresy on these boards to say so, with the big emphasis on "fit" -- but I personally would not have been willing to pay more money for my daughter to attend an out of state college, private or public, that I perceived as of being lesser quality academically than the in-state public options. I told my daughter at the outset that she had to apply to the in-state publics, and that I would pay the amount of whatever the most expensive in-state option was, with financial aid -- so if she wanted a private college, she would need sufficient financial aid to match that in-state option. In other words, if it turned out that it would cost our family $12K for her to attend Berkeley after we had an award in hand, then $12K would be the limit of my contribution to a private college as well. </p>

<p>Now, the reality was is that I was willing to pay somewhat more for a private college that was, in my mind, <em>better</em> than the in-state options, at least as far as her proposed area of study. The very same day that the package from Barnard arrived, I was on the phone to my father to see if I could scare up a financial contribution; referring to Barnard as "Columbia" seemed to be helpful in terms of obtaining donations from relatives. I am sure that "Harvard" or "Yale" would have been equally effective in the pitch for donations-- prestige tends to make people more willing to part with dollars. </p>

<p>But I told my daughter that I had that limit because I would NOT have wanted to be paying $25K for her to attend some out-of-state college that was academically weaker than her in-state options. I'm sorry, but it's a stretch for me financially as it is, and I could not have justified paying more for something that objectively is worth less. </p>

<p>Even if the parents don't feel that way, a kid who has money sense, such as one who loves economics and interns with a fair trade/business organization, might analyze things that way. My son applied to several private LACs, but refuse to apply to any larger private colleges or universities, because he felt that none could offer him anything better than he would get at Berkeley. (The LAC's at least offered small classes and strong advising, which is the one thing he valued that he did not think he could get at a UC campus). </p>

<p>So it is very likely that the OP's daughter's rationale is that she will aim for top-of-the-line, prestige programs -- and if she can get them, she will be happy and her parents will do what they have to to pay the freight. But she might not be at all willing to ask her parents to foot the bill for a 2nd tier private college that no one has ever heard of. Again, since she has worked extensively with her mom running the family businesses, she is probably intimately familiar with her family finances. My guess is that she is ambitious and clear headed, and wants "added value" along with the additional cost entailed for a private college. </p>

<p>I see no indication whatsoever that this kid would be unhappy at UW. Most of her choices are large universities (Middlebury and Reed being the exceptions). The problem with UW is that it's in her backyard, so of course she wants to expand her horizons -- but this is a kid with very strong ties and involvement to her community; if she ended up at UW I think she would stay involved in the same or similar activities, and would probably be too busy pursuing whatever opportunities came her way to give much thought to earlier dreams that didn't come to fruition.</p>

99

<p>I would still like to hear from the OP why his D picked UW for her safety. Does she feel that she could be happy there? </p>

<p>I have seen students who picked their own flagships because those were convenient, affordable safeties, but the students had never thought through whether they'd be happy going to those schools. They simply assumed that they'd have other options.</p>

<p>I'd also like the dad to say why his D doesn't want to apply to other publics and why doesn't she want to stay on the W. Coast for college. How much exposure has she had to the other parts of the country that she's considering for college? Beside Reed, has she checked out other West Coast private colleges?</p>

<p>It still seems unusual to me that a student with such strong ties to her community and to Chinese-related things would be considering some isolated colleges like Middlebury and Cornell that not only are thousands of miles away, but also aren't in communities with large Chinese populations.</p>

100

<p>Well, obviously the OP can explain things best. I too question the options of Middlebury & Cornell -- they don't seem to offer much in the way of fit. </p>

<p>But the concept of either going east for a private college or staying in-state on the west coast is pretty common, at least here in California -- I can't count the number of kids I have seen with that pattern. Typically they apply to Ivies and prestigious LACs, (Williams, Amherst, Wesleyan, Vassar), with NYU also being a big draw -- and then the UC system is their safety. There are also kids who want a west coast private and who apply to Stanford or to one of the Claremonts -- but those are a different set of kids.</p>

<p>So at least from this west coaster's perspective, it seems odd to me that anyone would question this. Maybe things are different in Washington - I don't know -- but from my experience it is a very typical pattern.</p>