I am looking for some advice to guide S17. S has attended small private schools with limited academic offerings. He has taken AP Chem, taking AP physics 1, AP Computer Science Principles, AP Calc AB and has taken AP English lang and taking AP English Lit. He initially wanted to do engineering but feels he is struggling to “get the material in AP chem,calc and physics” although he is getting A’s in all of them.( Got an 87 in first semester Calc AB) He is not a superstar but is a bright and hardworking student. He received a 4 on AP English Lang and a 3 on AP chem( ran out of time). He then decided he really enjoyed Comp Sci but has never coded before and feels like he is not “getting it” as well as other kids and needs help with the projects he is doing. So now he is having significant doubts about engineering and whether he should pursue this. I think that he raises valid points but also don’t know that he should give up without trying at least a semester in college. He is very conflicted as well-- he is very unsure of what path to follow. His other “loves” are philosophy, constitutional law, political science. He is now thinking of switching to liberal arts and ultimately pursuing a law degree. My concern with this is he has no exposure to any of these and he may be giving up on engineering without giving it a try for at least one semester. His GPA is 3.9 UW, 4.3 W and old SAT 2240 so a solid student. He has had no exposure to any engineering-- clubs,robotics, coding etc. Has anyone had a student like this who has been successful at engineering or comp sci or who chose another path that they are happier with.
A student cant just "try our engineering " for a semester. Most first semester classes for an engineering majors in college require MORE Math, Chem and Physics- and they are a LOT harder than what he is struggling with now.
Engineering is one of THE MOST challenging Science majors and if he is struggling with HS level AP science classes then its time to stop force feeding the idea of him becoming an engineer and let him focus on a major that is a GOOD fit for his interests AND natural talents.
Time to start backing away from being the one who determines what your son will do with the rest of his life , mom. Kids who are natural engineering types always find ways to explore their interests besides coding or robotics clubs- taking apart things by themselves and putting them back together, searching online for free coding programs, etc, etc. The fact that your son has not done any of the above but has loves NON HS subjects like philosophy, constitutional law, political science shows where his TRUE interests lie. Those interests will take him far in life.
Its time to start supporting the kid you have, instead of trying to make him into something he’s not.
As an engineer who was pushed into engineering so many years ago because I was female, strong in math and science, and graduated second in my class, please don’t push. I succeeded and earned adequate (but not great) grades. I have made a more than comfortable living in my field BUT I hate it. I cannot wait to retire. I would have been so much happier as an accountant or lawyer or who knows what else. We spend so much of our lives on the job; it really helps if we like what we are doing. I have encouraged both of my kids to find their passions. For one it is engineering. His mind works that way and he loves it. My D wanted absolutely nothing to do with engineering. She is currently a biology major with aspirations of becoming a veterinarian. Let your S find his passion. If he is a solid student he will do well in whatever that may be.
I’d recommend a LAC with distribution requirements. It is true that engineering curriculum is very rigid and it can’t be added later on… However what your son may be expressing is that he is not feeling so excited about the material and that may be part of the reason it feels challenging for him. It could be that if he took a few classes in political science or philosophy that something would really resonate with him. Or not. College offers so much more than high school, so it may be that what will click is something he hasn’t yet tried
I know people with engineering degrees who could not bring themselves to take engineering jobs because it just wasn’t their thing. I think that it would make sense for him to explore. I take it he has already applied to colleges but if he has any that have a 3 + 2 program, they might be worth considering. Or he could major in a science. …
But I would strongly counsel against doing something you don’t love because you’re good at it or shying away from something you love because you fear you might not be good enough. The real issue is finding what excites him.
My DD has an undergrad degree in engineering…dual major with biology. She will NEVER be an engineer. She has said this. She completed the degree requirements because she started them…and just wanted to.
But that degree in engineering will never be used for an engineering job.
Please…there are tons of great schools out there with core course requirements. These requirements give students a chance to see lots of areas of study…and for many…a course, or professor piques their interest…and a major comes out of that.
First of all, your son’s school does not have limited offerings- he has been able to take many AP courses. Getting A’s in AP courses is good but getting 5’s on the AP tests as well means the teaching of the course was good as well. Sometimes top students do not feel they are doing as well as they actually are because they see how much they don’t know. Can be related to being a perfectionist. It is great to be aware of more than is expected but one also needs to accept that one really does know a lot and can succeed. This comes from my own, belated, awareness of things (wish I had known better at a lot younger age…). Self confidence is needed.
Next- he is not expected to know everything or have been exposed to everything in HS. He also will have plenty of time to change his major once he is in college and discovers a much wider world than HS offers. You don’t enter college with a background in your major. You enter with ability to learn and a background of fundamentals in science, literature et al.
Engineering students typically take basic science courses their freshman year. Even with AP Calculus this can mean starting with first semester calculus since top schools’ versions will be much more comprehensive than the AP one and most students who pass the AP exam will not be ready for second semester (UW-Madison is one such school- AP courses are just at the average level college ones). Likewise general Chemistry and Physics will often be included as there is so much more to be learned.
btw- AP courses are wonderful in offering a standardized version of courses beyond what most HS’s would otherwise offer. They elevate the HS experience for many HS students and provide good knowledge as a basis for college material.
Your son also does not need computer science experiences to major in it at a top twenty CS school either. Nor does he need engineering classes in HS- most HS’s do not offer them. What he needs, and apparently has from his grades, is a solid base in sciences plus language arts skills.
Is engineering a parents’ dream or your son’s? People are multifaceted and some can do many varied things well. Interest needs to determine the career path chosen. One does not major in one’s “best” subject if it is not as appealing as another field. Likewise- if a student struggles with a subject, despite a great interest in it, it is not a good choice. Your son is NOT struggling with any subject- remember to compare him to the average, not gifted, students.
All colleges have breadth and depth (the majors) requirements. Your son can easily start his college path with those STEM classes needed for an engineering degree. Most engineering students will be taking those. He will add in other courses in nonsciences to fulfill requirements. These can be chosen to see if he really likes other majors better than focusing on sciences. Once he is in college he will figure out his major and do it- usually within the four years typical for a bachelor’s degree.
Many, even most, college students will change their major from the one they thought they would do first semester. Many will have several courses in an abandoned major- more than meet graduation breadth requirements.
Right now your son’s college task will be to choose schools that offer him good options for several potential paths. He may want to choose a large university, such as your state flagship, that offers both STEM and liberal arts majors instead of a college focusing on liberal arts alone.
btw- my son took a few summer fun computer courses then then the required entry level ones at a top tier school for that. He was undecided between math and physics so had some intermediate physics classes before deciding on the honors math major. There are several courses that are crosslisted in math and CS, btw (having a lot of math is an advantage in software development/engineering- the title depends on the company). He ultimately decided to finish the second major in CS instead of math grad school. He added the needed courses in CS in a backwards fashion (he had the theory/math ones but needed the basics unrelated to his math). He was hired at a large company then was recruited by an even bigger name in a different type of industry for computer software developing a couple of years later. He noted with his first job he was a bit worried because of his relative lack of programming skills. He caught up at work. The ability to think, not just program, is valuable.
Very long post here. It will be interesting for you to follow your son’s path and where it leads.
I never even discussed engineering. It is hands on compared to more theoretical math, sciences and liberal arts fields. Others can help with the “why engineering” option.
Your son could decide he is sick of math/science and choose the social science/liberal arts path from the beginning of college. My HS Economics teacher (eons ago, before AP) suggested I major in it but I chose Chemistry for interest. Students who are good at many diverse subjects are lucky- they get to choose for interest even if their ability is better in another field. There is nothing wrong with choosing a field even if one could do an alternate field. Lawyers who are good in sciences are valuable just as STEM field people who have language skills are valuable.
My parents,dad particularly, wanted me to become a computer programmer. The thought of it horrified me and I pursued my interests in writing,history and the humanities. In my case, because I put myself through school, I was able to tell my parents where to go when they tried to force me to follow the path they set out.
I have been a practicing lawyer for over 30 years and I have never regretted my choice. I still look forward to going to work and am only counting the days to retirement because I am sick of snow and want to live someplace without any.
My middle son is just all around smart. He did AP’s in math, science and social studies. When he went to college, everyone told him to go for engineering. However, he is the son of two humanities, liberal arts loving lawyers and it shows in him. He took pre-engineering math and computer science, not because I pushed him to it, but because his friends all told him that he would “love it.” Well, he hated it and those classes brought his GPA down because they bored the life out of him and he just couldn’t even bring himself to do the work. He’s had other issues at school, but of all the courses he’s taken, he said computer science was the one he most detested.
For the OP - if your son is struggling with AP math material, he will struggle even more in college. My son didn’t struggle in HS and got a 5 and 4 on the sub-tests of Calc BC but he barely passed in college.
I feel for the upthread writer, who became an engineer due to family pressure. I can’t imagine spending your career doing work that doesn’t excite and fulfill you. Don’t do that to your son. If he’s really unsure, let him start at a community college. He can try the math and engineering pre-reqs there and if he finds he likes them and does well, he can transfer to another program. If he struggles, the courses can be transferred as electives or gen eds to another program.
Thanks everyone for the replies. First I must clarify that I have no interest in pushing son into engineering and in fact have spent the past few years trying to talk him out of it as I thought he would do better in some of his other interests that seem to come more naturally to him and to which I think he has more passion. Son has wanted to major in science and engineering since he was young and is facing doubts now as he does not find the math and science come as easily to him but is not ready to give up his dreams. I was unsure how many kids who struggle some (still A’s and B’s) in AP math and sciences seem to get “it” in college and succeed and end up loving what they do. Part of his uncertainty at this point is not only will he be able to do it but if he succeeds will he enjoy it as a career. Son right now is planning on attending UA with the Presidential scholarship so has many options if he decides engineering is not right for him. I agree with @menloparkmom that his passions do not seem to lie in engineering but he is struggling to give up HIS dream of being an engineer and I don’t want him to feel I am pushing him to give up on engineering if he could succeed at it.
Don’t think one semester of college will give him any insight as to whether engineering is for him. As others have said, first year is primarily tough prerequisites and foundation courses. At best the curriculum includes an engineering survey class that in most cases seems to convey that engineering is boring. Tends to be a weed out year, not one that convinces kids that engineering is the right field for them. YMMV of course
Ok…my kid got A’s and B’s in high school…and I did NOT call that “struggling”. I’m not sure why you call him a struggling student with these grades…in AP courses.
In addition, she did better in the higher level engineering math courses than she did in calculus. She liked the actual application of her learned math content.
Still, when push came to shove, she decided to actually deal with a different career direction.
Second the thought that a school offering that many AP classes is not one with limited offerings.
Have you had conversations about why engineering is your son’s dream job? Has he ever had an opportunity to shadow some different engineers to see if it’s really what he wants to do? My S was convinced patent law was his future - undergrad in Chem, then law school. Then he spent a week shadowing at a patent law firm and hated everything about it. Now he’s an engineering major with no intentions of attending law school. Kids today hear engineering as the best path to a secure future - just like many years ago every kid wanted to be a doctor or a lawyer. But there’s so much more out there they haven’t even been exposed to.
It’s important to realize how high the attrition rate is for engineering majors. Many kids who seem destined to be engineers start college and realize it’s the wrong major for them. I was one - I fell in love with computer science much more than engineering and switched to a Math/CS major, then after a few years working realized coding full-time also wasn’t for me so transitioned into other computer-related careers. How might your son feel if he “tries” engineering and doesn’t do well first semester? Some kids feel like failures when really they’re just in the wrong major for them.
My D was sure she was going to be a chemistry major - then after acceptance but prior to starting college she decided she wanted to major in history, economics, or political science. She enrolled as a freshman with an undecided major. First semester she took political science and a classical history course. Much as she loved Model UN, studying political science wasn’t where her heart turned out to be leaning. She’s now set to graduate with a degree in history and classical civilizations, and is applying to graduate programs in classical archaeology.
Good luck to your S whatever he decides.
He calls it “struggling” as he puts in many hours studying and doesn’t feel he knows the material as well as he should. He also easily gets A’s with much less effort in his other classes. He is a perfectionist who until recently always excelled in those math/science classes and tutored the other kids. So to him “struggling” is how he sees things.
Where is he getting the idea to major in engineering? Just curious.
I really think that our culture seems to encourage premature thinking about career in our kids. Middle and high schoolers think in terms of well-defined career categories like engineer, doctor, nurse, lawyer- almost like a board game! The truth is that the job market and opportunities are very complex and diverse.
Granted, with the high cost of college and the burden of loans, it is easy to worry about a career path before college. But exploring a number of different areas of study in freshman and sophomore years, choosing a major which may or may not relate to eventual job, and enjoying college are not counterproductive in terms of eventual career success.
It is helpful to volunteer, intern or work during college years to do a similar kind of exploration outside of schools. Extracurriculars can help too.
Engineering does require an early focus in college due to the intense and sequential curriculum. Is it possible to talk with your son about the more general issue of premature career focus? Would he respond to the idea of freedom for the first two years, to explore and grow?
If he really is determined, he is not doing that badly. Is there a reason he feels like he is struggling? Is he a perfectionist? Does have peers who are competitive? Is he overly anxious about admissions?
I would say there are a couple of larger issues going on than just worries about engineering, and you would know best how to tease them out and deal : )
Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I am not sure why he is so fixated on engineering but it is what he has espoused wanting to do for a very long time. I will encourage him to try and do some job shadowing this summer to help him discover what path will be right for him.
Almost forgot - my brother was one of those “good at math and science” kids who went into engineering because everyone told him it was a natural fit. He hated his first semester. He didn’t struggle, just hated his classes so much he not only changed majors but also schools.
He ended up majoring in accounting, did his two years public accountancy, passed the CPA exam with flying colors in one attempt, and has had a very successful career in business.
You might also want to have him look at the course of study for engineers in college. If he “feels” like he is struggling now, he might not be so enthused after looking at what lies ahead.
I would also try to find some engineers who might be willing to have a candid talk with him about what the job entails.
Can he shadow someone during a school break? Or days off of school?
And lastly, there are a LOT of different engineering concentrations…a lot.
I will be blunt and venture to say his fixation on engineering, like a fixation on Harvard, might be a result of immaturity : ) That makes it delicate. I would suggest some exposure to different possible jobs and careers. Check out craigslist, hireculture.org, other sites so he can see the incredible variety of jobs that don’t fit in a neat category.
It is scary to start being on one’s own and thinking about supporting oneself, and engineering may feel safe and secure to him. He is not alone. Humanities majors have been decreasing in recent years. Financial concerns often drive this. I think it is sad, so I am a bit biased, but hope he can come around to either love engineering or be free of the fixation and find another area he loves.
Thanks. I think that it is a combination of things. One he truly loves science-- he loves reading science magazines, and learning about new areas of investigation in science and I think the past 2 years have been disheartening to him in his perceived struggles. But I also think that hearing about the poor prospects for liberal arts majors, lawyers, etc is scaring him into not wanting to pursue something that may not allow him financial stability. The other thing that I think concerns him is that college and what you study does not necessarily correlate to what you actually do. I saw this first hand as a physician. Hated my premed courses, wasn’t thrilled with the first 2 years of med school and actually thought of dropping out but loved my clinicals and have loved Actually being a physician. He worries that if he gives up he may find he actually loves being an engineer. It’s not easy being a teen at times.
He is in HS. He doesn’t have to choose his life career now.