<p>haha well opie, i'm a spoiled brat whose parents have said they would take out a 2nd mortgage or whatever to send me to the best college i got into (yale hopefully lol) // end brag about parents from heaven</p>
<p>At my freshman orientation at MIT (fall '72), the question was asked: "how many of you were valedictorian?" Hands go up. "Top 10%?" More hands go up. "Top 25%?" Almost all the hands are up now. "Top half?" and everyone's hands are up.</p>
<p>"Well," comes the next sentence from the dean, "Half of you will be in the bottom half of your class here."</p>
<p>And a chorus comes from the freshman class: "Not me."</p>
<p>While I agree that parents should support their children's choices, I also note the OP's statement that MIT has a procedure in place for when parents DON'T support their children's choices. There is no legal or even moral requirement that parents pay for college, and certainly no requirement that they pay for a major of which they disapprove. (I will note that EE probably pays BETTER than CS and that the parents were misinformed, in that case.)</p>
<p>One of my good friends went to a respected LAC. His parents required him to take the maximum allowable number of credit hours every single semester so they would "get their money's worth." Needless to say, taking 50% more course hours than everyone else took a toll, and he got a C-minus in calculus freshman year. This was a passing grade, and both of his major departments (econ and comp sci) accepted it and allowed him to progress to more advanced math required for those majors. But his parents were so mad about the C-minus, they made him re-take calculus over the summer at a community college, even though it wouldn't change the grade on his transcript.</p>
<p>I thought that was ridiculous. It was nothing but a summer-long punishment.</p>
<p>Yeah I don't think it's fair for parents to agree to pay for one major and then withdraw payment if a child chooses another. They either support the child's education or don't. They can't have their way...that's blackmail--"either you do what we say or we will not support you." Rather, parents who don't want to pay should not, regardless of what major the child chooses. Anyone disagree with me?</p>
<p>A junior at my D's high school stabbed her mom to death this fall- she was Asian- the Mom was riding her to be more perfect than she was (only 800's, perfect scores on piano, etc) She now is an adult facility and will be out when she's 25 (not life since abuse was there too). check out <a href="http://www.esmie.com%5B/url%5D">www.esmie.com</a> if you want the details</p>
<p>my gosh that esmie story is SO sad.</p>
<p>it just feels so terrible, because there are parents in every race/culture who are emotionally abusive. what esmie's mom did to her is clearly emotional abuse. but i know when i complain about my parents at school, people just assume that my parents are normal, pushy asian parents...they don't even think that there is a possibility that those parents can be abusive. poor poor girl! she needed help. asian parents suck so much. they have this stupid family honor that keeps kids from going to others for help.</p>
<p>Jimbob, </p>
<p>My point is if you're going to take the money, you've got to listen to the speech. The simplest way to end that conversation with the parents is to not accept the money anymore. I did not say I would cut them off...go back and reread. I did say if they want to make their own decisions without parental imput, then you must be willing to cut off the money flow from the parents. That's the best way to show your parents that you are a big enough boy to step away from mom and dad's "free" money and use your own. </p>
<p>That's not a pushy parent, that's a kid who has enough belief in what he/she is doing that they are willing to go it alone financially. That's a level of maturity. That's when the relationship changes, there's still a level of respect for the parents but a confidence in your choice to show you're ready.</p>
<p>Opie:</p>
<p>Most students do not really know that they are not suited to the major they had decided on before college until they have been there for a year or so; this is why students are not asked to declare a major until sophomore year. If a student is, with the blessings of parents, attending a $45k college, that student cannot just hope to make up for the lost financial support. Nor is the student likely to be able to finance even a state uni education ($15k per year for UMass for residents). So effectively, parents are using financial blackmail.</p>
<p>MIT may be willing to bail out students whose parents suddenly refuse to support them, but most colleges do not. When the financial crisis erupted in the late 1990s and people went bankrupt, their children dropped out of college like flies.</p>
<p>Of course, it's the parents' money. But it's an ugly way to force compliance and it is totally misguided if the goal is to achieve one's children's happiness. So there may be students out there desperately unhappy in their studies but not able to walk away. And let's be clear, It's not just the money they'd be walking away. It's the parents as well.</p>
<p>Opie: I talk about someone who tried to kill herself, and someone who was harassed about her (good) grades while she was ill and in the hospital, and you think I'm whining?</p>
<p>I agree that your parents are less able to blackmail you if you don't need their money. This is hard to pull off at a school that costs $40K/year. MIT is actually quite anal about expecting parents to pay tuition - when they calculate financial aid, they include the "expected parental contribution" based on parents' income. If your parents cut off tuition, your choices, other than dropping out, are to:</p>
<p>1) Pay the extra money. If you are from a poor family and the expected parental contribution was not much in the first place, this may be the best bet. I have an alum friend who did it successfully (and also didn't speak to his parents for 5-6 years afterward). I'm not on financial aid - if my tution was cut off, which was a real possibility in the near past but thankfully averted, I'd have to somehow come up with 20K each semester. I work part-time during term, but I don't make anywhere near that kind of money.</p>
<p>2) Declare yourself financially independent so that your aid package in MIT grants and federal loans is recalculated based on your income and not your parents'. This is what the girl who switched from CS to EE did (and she still had to work multiple jobs after she did it). This is an incredibly grueling process that often ends up getting denied anyway. It requires documented evidence of parental abuse and supporting statements from counseling deans and non-relatives who know you.</p>
<p>You might say that in that case they should go to a state school, where tuition is cheaper. First of all, most kids don't forsee that kind of conflict with their parents - none of the ones I mentioned did. Second, arguably they are going to be more employable once they get out by having gone to the school they did.</p>
<p>I should mention that neither of the cases I described of parents pulling tuition are spoiled brats who aren't willing to make any sort of sacrifice in order to major in what they want. Both of them worked multiple jobs to support themselves, both during term and in the summer, even while taking a full load of classes during term. At least one went several months without health insurance so that she could save the money. Both took out loans to help themselves more. Both still struggled financially to the point of having to get financial help from their boyfriends in order to stay in school, eat, and not be homeless.</p>
<p>marite,</p>
<p>"Most students do not really know that they are not suited to the major they had decided on before college until they have been there for a year or so; this is why students are not asked to declare a major until sophomore year."</p>
<p>Totally understand this concept. </p>
<p>"If a student is, with the blessings of parents, attending a $45k college, that student cannot just hope to make up for the lost financial support. Nor is the student likely to be able to finance even a state uni education ($15k per year for UMass for residents). So effectively, parents are using financial blackmail." </p>
<p>There are many, many ways to pay for college, not just the parents. Some people even take longer than 4 years to get there. Blackmail only exists IF you allow it to occur. My point for a student has been and simply is this fact... if you truly believe in what you are doing or want to do, be willing to do it alone, if necessary. It doesn't mean you'll have too, it means you're willing to. This negates any "blackmail" by a parent, as it limits their influence as their money is no good here. </p>
<p>There are those of us out there who found a way to pay for college without mom or dad. </p>
<p>"Of course, it's the parents' money. But it's an ugly way to force compliance and it is totally misguided if the goal is to achieve one's children's happiness."</p>
<p>So wouldn't the willingness to fund your own education to back your beliefs eliminate this ugly method a parent might use? </p>
<p>"So there may be students out there desperately unhappy in their studies but not able to walk away. And let's be clear, It's not just the money they'd be walking away. It's the parents as well."</p>
<p>You know, if the family situation is such, if it wasn't a selection of a major, it would be something else.. wouldn't it. There never was a family dianamic to begin with, was there? </p>
<p>I don't think I'm being too unrealistic to offer the suggestion I have. Is it the easiest method? No. However it is the method that provides an individual the most freedom. My kids know upfront the day they don't want to hear my advice (funny thing, the advice is not that extreme or controlling) on something, just pay for it themselves. fair enough?</p>
<p>jesshl,</p>
<p>I feel empathy for your friends, I do. However, life throws us curves all the time and you have to make choices. Will you always have a best choice vs. a worse choice? No sometimes both choices are crappy and it's just a matter of how far you want to be buried in the cow poop.</p>
<p>You're absolutely right it would be hard to pull off at MIT. It would be hard to pull off anywhere, but because of the situation presented you might either have to be willing to go it alone or live in your parents shadow (for a long time).</p>
<p>It's funny that in some ways I'm getting painted as this uncarring bad guy for what I've posted... however, I think I'm just the opposite. My answer however is a scarier one to accept than complaining about parents who want input for their money. </p>
<p>"I believe in what I am doing and am willing to find my OWN way to do it." </p>
<p>Every decision has a cost.. EVERY ONE. </p>
<p>I own a small business, five years ago I fired my biggest account (50% of my income) because he wanted me to basically break the law (think Martha Stewart) I refused. By refusing, I essentially lost the account. Within a week, he found someone who would do what he wanted, it's not hard to find people without ethics. I made a choice.. it had a cost. </p>
<p>I could have gone along, probably not got caught by the SEC and had a fair amount of money in my pocket for it. However, ethics matter to me, I have children to look at everyday who believe in me. My choice cost me finanically, but allowed me to follow my ethics. Was this a bad choice? depends on how you look at life and what you believe in. </p>
<p>There's days I certainly miss the money, yes I do. However, I was able to keep true to myself. Which am I going to have longer?</p>
<p>Opie: I agree that if your kid's choices are unreasonable, then you shouldn't pay for it. For example, if your kid decides that he's going to drop out of school and become a rock star, I wouldn't expect you to give him start-up money just because it is his dream. However, I think that the OP and others are talking about parents who are standing in the way of more reasonable aspirations. </p>
<p>Although it is legitimate for you or other parents to be concerned about the "change your major, leave your options open" philosophy of many colleges, there are ways for parents to compromise with kids without taking drastic and alienating measures. For instance, if your child wants to be a music major, it might be appropriate for you to ask that he or she do so in conjunction with a teacher's preparation program so that he would have a stable job to fall back on if he couldn't find something he liked better. However, whether or not it is technically fair, it would be neither kind nor wise, I think, to try to get that child to be a business major.</p>
<p>My own parents tried to push me into an accounting major, the results of which were disastrous. I then majored in business to appease them somewhat, but still only enjoyed it marginally. I ended up a Spanish major, which they still financed, under the condition that I complete the secondary education certification to back it as a "legitimate major with job possibilities."</p>
<p>I have thoroughly enjoyed my years as a h.s. foreign language teacher and especially love the schedule that has allowed me summers and major holidays with my family. No, the money's not great, but the job satisfaction far outweighs the financial gain. </p>
<p>With my own D in college now, her dad and I are placing no restrictions on her choice of majors. We have told her that we will only pay for undergrad and that she is on her own for grad school. So far, she has amazed us with her stellar GPA and impressive college ECs, and she should be in line for a fellowship for grad school when she graduates.</p>
<p>Opie:</p>
<p>I understand your line of reasoning but I think it's unrealistic. Borrowing to finance your education is probably not feasible for an 18-year old. Working long enough hours to fund your education when you have no special skills is also not realistic, especially if you want to do well.</p>
<p>As for money, although I said it's the parents' money, I don't quite believe it. I believe in a generational compact. Kids do not have a choice whether to be born or not; parents have a choice to have kids. With that choice comes responsibility. I know that legally, parents are responsible only until the kids reach the age of 18. But that is a convenient convention that is not based on economic reality. If colleges truly believed that parents bear no responsibility for financing their kids' education, they would not expect parents to pay (until fairly recently Harvard expected parents to spring for their children's graduate studies as well unless they received fellowships!)</p>
<p>Thanks to a generous scholarship, I was financially independent of my parents since I was 17. This made it possible for me to avoid going into a premed track as my mother insisted (I would have hated it!). My children have benefitted from our earning capabilities, but this has removed the possibility of their receiving the kind of financial aid I received. Still, I want them to enjoy the freedom to explore majors and to carve careers that will suit them best, whether or not these will lead to high incomes (I'm with Memie here).</p>
<p>jesshl: I thought you and others would get a kick out of this 2005 commencement speech at Caltech, by Sandra Tsing Loh, a writer and radio commentator. </p>
<p>My favorite line: "Look at me, I went into liberal arts which, to a Chinese father, is like pole dancing."</p>
<p>Here is the link: <a href="http://caltech.edu/commencement/05/loh_speech.html%5B/url%5D">http://caltech.edu/commencement/05/loh_speech.html</a> </p>
<p>I got timed out when I tried to check the link, but you can google it. The punchline of the speech, essentially, is "Forget 'dare to dream.' I suggest you 'dare to disappoint your father.' " (Keep in mind she is talking to graduates.) "And Asian students, that goes double for you."</p>
<p>Opie: you may find this piece amusing as well, but you will most likely identify with the father figure. I understand what you're saying about wanting to have input, or at least, to be given the respect of having your student listen to your advice and opinion while you are footing the college bill. But I wonder if you would really go so far as to pull the plug on your kid's college education if he or she chooses a major you don't agree with. What choice would really spur you to do that?</p>
<p>wow that Loh woman is 43 years old...and her Dad is still telling her how to make a speech?</p>
<p>marite,</p>
<p>"I understand your line of reasoning but I think it's unrealistic. Borrowing to finance your education is probably not feasible for an 18-year old. Working long enough hours to fund your education when you have no special skills is also not realistic, especially if you want to do well."</p>
<p>It's been done... I did it. It just takes alittle longer and you have less free time. If you want school bad enough (as I did) you find a way. What's the difference between graduation at 21..25..30 when you have another 60 years. </p>
<p>"As for money, although I said it's the parents' money, I don't quite believe it. I believe in a generational compact. Kids do not have a choice whether to be born or not; parents have a choice to have kids. With that choice comes responsibility. I know that legally, parents are responsible only until the kids reach the age of 18. But that is a convenient convention that is not based on economic reality. If colleges truly believed that parents bear no responsibility for financing their kids' education, they would not expect parents to pay (until fairly recently Harvard expected parents to spring for their children's graduate studies as well unless they received fellowships!)"</p>
<p>This sounds alot like "I didn't ask to be born.. pay for the rest of my life.." At what age does your generational compact cease to exist? Should your parent also be required to fund your home and retirement? Colleges don't care where the money comes from as long as the check clears. They'll take a students dollars just as easily as a parents. There is no "expectation", that parents pay anything, that's just a formula for aid. </p>
<p>"Thanks to a generous scholarship, I was financially independent of my parents since I was 17. This made it possible for me to avoid going into a premed track as my mother insisted (I would have hated it!). My children have benefitted from our earning capabilities, but this has removed the possibility of their receiving the kind of financial aid I received. Still, I want them to enjoy the freedom to explore majors and to carve careers that will suit them best, whether or not these will lead to high incomes (I'm with Memie here)."</p>
<p>At 18 I moved out and worked my way through college. At what point in all of these posts did I say I control their choice of majors?</p>
<p>I have said "If your going to use me for a bank, you'll have to listen to the speech." As far as career choices here's the speech " find something you'll love doing, make enough to feed yourselves and choose a career that can't be outsourced in your middleages. I would venture to guess that would give someone a vast number of career choices. no? </p>
<p>The option of doing it yourself (yes, you can put yourself through college) is always there IF your parents are overbearing or limiting your career choices. </p>
<p>Some responses to that simple concept have been met with it's not realistic.. sure it is.... people put themselves through college everyday.</p>
<p>Opie,
how many years ago have you finished college? Would YOU consider cutting your children off if their choice of major doesn't satisfy the expence from your point of view?</p>
<p>jazzymom.</p>
<p>"Opie: you may find this piece amusing as well, but you will most likely identify with the father figure. I understand what you're saying about wanting to have input, or at least, to be given the respect of having your student listen to your advice and opinion while you are footing the college bill. But I wonder if you would really go so far as to pull the plug on your kid's college education if he or she chooses a major you don't agree with. What choice would really spur you to do that? "</p>
<p>Your link wouldn't open.. I'll try it later. </p>
<p>First off, where did I say I would cut off anybody's funds? If you look at the last post you saw my spiel about college majors. Honest to god, that's it...find something you enjoy, make enough money to feed yourself and avoid a career that can be outsourced 20 years from now. If one of my kids enjoys "pole dancing", can feed themselves "pole dancing" and "pole dancing" can't be outsourced when they hit middle age..fine a "pole dancer" it is. :) </p>
<p>If "pole dancing" means they'll live in my house and eat my food till they're 50 years old... we'll have a talk about career choices..:)</p>
<p>All I have done is given the simplest solution to an overbearing parent... offer to pay for it yourself. That eliminates the parent from the matter. </p>
<p>At some point most of us are going to have to pay our own way in life. For some it comes very early in life. Why not pay for college yourself if you can't agree with your parents or they are holding your education hostage? </p>
<p>I've helped my kids with thousands of dollars year after year.. However, at some point I do expect all my gas cards back, them to pick up their own auto insurance, buy their next car (first came from me), find their own apartment or house, buy their own clothes, fund their retirement, buy their own furniture and appliances.... don't you? </p>
<p>Has nobody esle on this site had to go it alone if they wanted something? Why does the idea of doing yourself seem so "bizzar" here?</p>
<p>Opie:</p>
<p>I am not accusing you of trying to control your own kids through money or imposing your choice of majors on them. So please don't take it personally. I am responding to your suggestions for young people with controlling parents to adopt. What makes you think that the students mentioned by Jessie did not listen to the speech? What happens after they've listened not once but umpteen times? Is that all you require? The parents in question sound like they did not listen to the kids; just cut them off without a penny.</p>
<p>When did you put yourself through college? I worked one summer as a waitress. I believe I earned enough to pay one semester's tuition. If my kid were to work as a waiter today, he probably would earn enough to cover 20% of his tuition bill at most. If he went to our state U, it would cover 1/3. What was a possibility 40 years ago is no longer practical. </p>
<p>I tell my kids they're my old age pension (j/k). I do expect to support them financially to the best of my abilities until they are capable of earning their own way, that is through college.</p>