Parents can't—or won't—take on children's education debt

Parent Cafe
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<p>(pharmakeus01) That was quite the post.</p>

<p>The US has always been the land of the possible and rags to riches through luck or hard work. We see it in our movies, television and books. There is something to be said for hard work creating a tougher person and maybe one that achieves more. And there are some that achieve quite a bit without the benefit of a college degree. </p>

<p>When I graduated from high school, there was much more in the way of grants available for college and college costs were much more reasonable relative to what you could earn with a part-time job. My siblings and I had relatively little help from parents (split immigrant couple) but we didn’t need much help as the environment to get a college degree was much better. In the 80s and 90s, corporations were much better at paying for college too. All of this changed and perhaps some adults, familiar with what they went through, didn’t respond to the changes.</p>

<p>I don’t see what you’ve written as being collectivist. It’s the culture that expects the community and family to chip in. That happens in the US too but the child and/or parents have to seek out scholarships from the community and family instead. My siblings are mostly upper-middle-class but even the one that is worst off paid for a better school district and eventually private school when public didn’t work out.</p>

<p>I only learned about Asian enrollment percentages in CA and was shocked at how they overperform and I guess your explanation helps to explain why.</p>

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<p>Here is another spin on things. I have watched many friends put all their savings into college funds and private schools seriously damaging there own retirement savings. We blended our familiy of 5 kids over 10 years ago, and we let them know early that they need to work hard to earn scholarships to help pay for school. We socked 15% into our 401k even when it hurt. We promised them that they would never have to worry about us financially when we got old and we would help them the best we can. We havetwo kids now with masters degrees, and one starting Columbia University in the fall. They have paid for most of their own undergraduate schooling and all of their graduate school. We have helped the two oldest with a down payment on their new homes verses all the tuition help. One advantage with the financial aid packages that all parents need to know is, retirement savings don’t count against you, college funds do. As a result of our sons hard work in school and athletics and the new financial aid, he is going to an Ivy for less than 1/2 of a state school, and he has earned some local scholarship money to help. That is a loan he can manage.</p>

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<p>While some might see not paying for a child’s college or graduate school tuition as “irresponsible”, I feel paying the money, especially if it delays retirement or could make one financially dependent on offspring in old age, is ever more irresponsible. As I noted earlier, paying a child’s way can lower self-esteem on the child’s part, and it can also make the child feel <em>obligated</em> to go in a direction they don’t really want to go. For example, I know an Asian who majored in physics and killed himself in graduate school, his father feels due to the son feeling he couldn’t chose a different field as the parents wouldn’t approve. If a child has parents paying rather than paying herself/himself, they are more likely to feel “locked in” (not that my brother did with my parents paying over $100K for his M.D. - he still left neurosurgery, but it upset my father quite a bit) and parents are also more likely to get upset with children when they feel they have “wasted” money on a child’s education when they do go in another direction (I’ve seen this happen with friends of mine). The Asian suicide rate is rather high compared to other races, and my guess is the families feeling so wrapped up in their children’s “moving up in the world” in a contributing factor.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/05/16/asian.suicides/index.htm[/url]”>http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/05/16/asian.suicides/index.htm&lt;/a&gt;
[Asian</a> Students, Depression, and Suicide: Begin with the Parents! : MENTAL HEALTH](<a href=“http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:FpM4XlPrdeIJ:www.chinspirations.com/mhsourcepage/asian-students-depression-and-suicide-begin-with-the-parents+Asian+suicide+rate&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=20&gl=us&client=firefox-a]Asian”>http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:FpM4XlPrdeIJ:www.chinspirations.com/mhsourcepage/asian-students-depression-and-suicide-begin-with-the-parents+Asian+suicide+rate&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=20&gl=us&client=firefox-a)</p>

<p>“More than 50% of Cornell’s Student Suicide Victims are Asian American
Out of 4,790 Cornell undergraduates surveyed in 2005, Asian-American/Asian students seriously considered or attempted suicide at higher-than-average rates. Also, 13 of the 21 Cornell student suicide victims since 1996 have been Asian or Asian-American - and Asian/Asian-Americans comprise only 14% of the total Cornell student body.”</p>

<p>So to me, it’s really being irresponsible to put so much pressure on your child doing well in education and putting your money where your pressure is.l</p>

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<p>“While some might see not paying for a child’s college or graduate school tuition as “irresponsible”, I feel paying the money, especially if it delays retirement or could make one financially dependent on offspring in old age, is ever more irresponsible.”</p>

<p>It appears to me that the poster was talking about a community team approach to education. As far as delaying retirement goes, that’s already happening with longer lifespans, stagnant and declining incomes and poor investment choices.</p>

<p>“As I noted earlier, paying a child’s way can lower self-esteem on the child’s part, and it can also make the child feel <em>obligated</em> to go in a direction they don’t really want to go. For example, I know an Asian who majored in physics and killed himself in graduate school, his father feels due to the son feeling he couldn’t chose a different field as the parents wouldn’t approve.”</p>

<p>Pressure can be a problem; especially where there is a history of mental illness in the family. But I think that colleges could do better in that department regardless of race. But this is just anecdotal. When you look at overall dismal graduation rates at colleges, you also have to consider the tremendous amount of waste of kids’ time and money in going to college with inadequate support.</p>

<p>“If a child has parents paying rather than paying herself/himself, they are more likely to feel “locked in” (not that my brother did with my parents paying over $100K for his M.D. - he still left neurosurgery, but it upset my father quite a bit) and parents are also more likely to get upset with children when they feel they have “wasted” money on a child’s education when they do go in another direction (I’ve seen this happen with friends of mine).”</p>

<p>That’s a matter of attitude and it isn’t universal. I’m provide free rides but I don’t have requirements on majors. I would prefer something that’s sustainable but we have the luxury of doing something fruity.</p>

<p>“The Asian suicide rate is rather high compared to other races, and my guess is the families feeling so wrapped up in their children’s “moving up in the world” in a contributing factor.”</p>

<p>I think that there are other cultural factors besides educational pressure that contribute to this.</p>

<p>“So to me, it’s really being irresponsible to put so much pressure on your child doing well in education and putting your money where your pressure is.”</p>

<p>I think that you are making light of a problem with a much larger scope and magnitude than the problems with asians in college.</p>

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<p>[WHO:</a> Suicide rates](<a href=“http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/]WHO:”>http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/)</p>

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<p>tokenadult, that link doesn’t really speak to the situation brought up here, which is the suicide rate of students. LazyBum’s link is germane.</p>

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<p>Yes, food for thought, there is a distinction between YOUTH suicide rates and overall suicide rates, and there must be a rather poorly researched distinction between suicide rates in a given country’s national population and in ethnic subpopulations in each country. Knowing as many “Asian” families as I do, I generally don’t find “Asian” to be a very informative categorization. Do we mean first-generation immigrants from China, or many-generation Japanese-Americans, or Hmong refugees, or what? And how does the base rate of suicide at a highly selective college compare to the base rate of suicide in the general population? (The college-going age group has very low death rates, but one of the highest causes of death for that age group is suicide, in or out of college.) </p>

<p>Returning to some earlier questions posted above, when a parent is really old, and perhaps incapacitated, who is taking care of and visiting the parent? Who chooses the parent’s care-givers when a parent can no longer give directions about personal care decisions? This relates to my life experience, I’m sure, but I think a lot of adults who save for their own retirement don’t sufficiently consider what they will need besides money if they become sick in old age. It was originally my multicultural background that alerted me to the idea that in many countries it would be regarded as silly for parents not to invest what they can in their children’s education, with these issues in mind.</p>

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<p>I’m still confused on why one would think paying fully for a child’s education would mean the child would necessarily take care of them in their old age. Is it a guilt thing? Is it a contract? Where is it implied that paying for a child’s education will get them to help with personal care decisions in the parents older years? I would think that if my goal was to ensure I had a good enough relationship with my children that they would care for me when I became incapacitated that quality time and caring about their hopes and dreams would be more important than just paying for anything, whether is be an education, home, or vacation. I know keeping up a good relationship is way more work than throwing $200K at the kids and insisting they pick a well paying major, but I think if the kids are going to be living in America, with the influences of American culture, that is what is required.</p>

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<p>I have observed a lot of parental control in asian families and I think that it’s more than a guilt trip. It seems to be weaker for kids in the US where Asian kids get a does of independence.</p>

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<p>I know plenty of children whose higher education was NOT helped by their parents, who nonetheless look after their parents in old age, and on the other hand I hear about (I actually don’t know, personally) children whose parents scrimped a lot to support their educations who leave their parents on their own even when the parents are medically incapacitated. So, yeah, there aren’t any guarantees of future child behavior from what a parent does or doesn’t do for the child, but based on my cross-cultural experiences, it’s just prudent planning to do what you can, when you can, for your children. The investment some parents make is a quiet, comfortable house in early childhood, and the investment other parents make is funding up to the EFC for the child’s college studies, and there are other investments parents can make for their children. The return on investment isn’t certain–and this really isn’t why most parents do this, but rather sheer parental love–but who else will look out for the child while the child is young?</p>

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<p>The “return” on my investment is that my kids grow up to be productive members of their communities and they they make a difference in others’ lives. Being self-supporting would be nice, too. :slight_smile: I would hope my kids still want to hang out with us because they like us as people, rather than out of duty for funding their college educations.</p>

<p>S1 will be contributing about 40% of his COA via scholarships, loans and work. Our expectation was the usual Staffords, 10 hours a week during the school year and working substantially FT during the summers (though an internship/special opportunity would not be out of the question). The scholarships were a welcome bonus. </p>

<p>As for our retirement and medical care, that is a big one for us due to health issues. We have always lived frugally so that we could have adequate life insurance, an affordable mortgage, etc. Turns out that was a wise choice. In retrospect, we are underfunded for college, but now on target for retirement (we had a lot of catching up to do after day care and our student loans).</p>

<p>DH put himself through an Ivy (back when they had merit $$) and I put myself through a state flagship. I supported us while DH was in grad school. Never received money from parents on either side of the family, for college, house or emergencies. We finished paying off student loans in January 1998 and bought our first house two months later; we had been married 14 years and had two kids in elementary school by then.</p>

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<p>There’s always the military. (but I can’t imagine very many on this board have served, or know anyone in the service, or even met anyone in the service) The level of whining here is amazing.</p>

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<p>I know plenty of people in the military. And the whining is mostly from the slim minority of flash-in-the-pan members.</p>

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<p>I’ve heard the argument that parents shouldn’t take on debt because they have less time to pay it off while kids have their whole life to pay it off. I’m not sure what I think about this statement, but as a student it seems a little scary to me. While my parents have less time to pay off debt, its going to be much harder for me to pay off debt when I am just starting out. What do you think?</p>

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<p>letmeinnow-</p>

<p>It will be hard to pay your debt off when you are starting out, BUT you do have the option of working out ways to extend the time on paying back your loans. </p>

<p>For example, if you start paying back your loans at age 22, and take 20 years to pay them, you will be 42 when you finish. And, presumably, you will still be working and earning money so you can pay off those loans. If your 55 year old mom starts paying back loans for your education, and spends 20 years doing so, she will finish at age 75. The chances of her still being in the workforce, and earning a decent wage 20 years from now are not the same as yours.</p>

<p>Not to mention that if you should die an untimely death, loans that are only in your name will disappear. Loans that are in your parents name will still be due. They could be stuck paying for your education long after you are in the ground.</p>

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<p>I believe higher education is a right, not a privilege. I could not as easily compare my kids’ degrees to their cars as I could to their food and clothing.</p>

<p>My husband and I have decided that, in accordance to what our means allow, we will attempt to pay off as much undergraduate debt as possible.</p>

<p>It is an investment not only for their futures, our society’s and ours, but just overall for their well-being and person.</p>

<p>For post-undergraduate studies, however, we have decided we will not be paying off any debt. I often use this metaphor (albeit a horrible one) to compare my kids’ education to necessities: </p>

<p>College = Levis Jeans/Camry/Roast beef</p>

<p>Law School/Grad School/Medical School = Dolce and Gabbana Jeans/M5/Caviar</p>

<p>College is something I feel responsible for and I think that is the most crucial education as far as higher education is concerned. However, if they want to pursue something beyond that, that is surely not a necessity but a desire. Whether a good one or not is not up to me to decide because I will not be paying for it.</p>

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<p>“Not to mention that if you should die an untimely death, loans that are only in your name will disappear. Loans that are in your parents name will still be due. They could be stuck paying for your education long after you are in the ground.”</p>

<p>It’s more likely that the parents will die first and then the loans die. So parents taking the loan could be more efficient in a probabilistic way.</p>

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<p>Sure, it is more likely, but it still happens. My younger brother died when he was 36 years old, and that was 13 years ago. My mother is still alive.</p>

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<p>It’s more likely that you won’t get hit by a meteorite tomorrow than you will. Should you take action just in case it happens?</p>

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<p>re untimely deaths -</p>

<p>My point here really is, do you want your parents to have to continually suffer this loss in such a horrible way? Do you really want them paying off an education that no one can profit from, and possibly endanger their long-term financial security without you around to help them out? I wouldn’t.</p>