<p>Bookie mom, I hate to say it, but you are looking at a freaking disaster! No will? Enough $$ to pay for care?
I suggest a spine implant for your H and a you do it to his brother with access to the money. Your H owes his father something, but not his life. And some one needs to swing the clue bat.
Hope you manage but what you present is not reasonable nor workable even for " a feww weeks" if hospice says needs care, get care! The when it goes downhill also, a TRAINED person might be able to identify and to save a lot of trouble that an untrained son might have no way of coping…</p>
<p>Welcome to the thread, bookiemom. That is unfair, and understandably upsetting. </p>
<p>How about having the hospice nurse call the stepbrother? Somehow speaking directly to a medical professional has a lot more power than the voice of a sibling. It’s going to be harder for the stepbrother to say no to the nurse.</p>
<p>I think your H should have a meeting with all the siblings, either by teleconference if they’re willing, or an email sent to all if they’re not. (We’ve found emails to be really helpful; no one can claim he didn’t get the message, and everyone gets the same message at the same time.) Your H needs to tell them that he cannot continue carrying the lion’s share of this burden, that he needs to get back to work, and that he is going to have to step down his involvement. He needs to be firm about it. Then it’s not a matter of him pleading for help. It’s a matter of forcing them to figure out how to replace the services he’s been performing.</p>
<p>He’ll also need to be prepared for the emotional buttons they will push. They’ve had it easy, and they don’t want that to change. If necessary, he can play the “he’s your father too” card. But he needs to hold firm.</p>
<p>Thanks for the initial comments. We know this is serious trouble. We have been talking to Dad about these issues for years. </p>
<p>The social worker called older brother today, not sure of results. Tomorrow my H is having a meeting with the nearby brother. H has done or said all the things mentioned here, and both brothers and the dad really just blow him off. It is sort of easy to say from a distance to just “get the help in,” but it is quite possible my H and I will have to pay out-of-pocket for this. We can’t force Dad to pay for the help if he refuses. And for full-time care, $10,000/month… I don’t think Dad can live more than a month though. I don’t think the out-of-state brother will reimburse us for anything. I think he will clean out the accounts the day Dad passes. This brother got all their grandmother’s funds and did not share any with the younger brothers. </p>
<p>And not fair to say my H needs to get a spine. He is the rational, devoted son here. He is a leader in any situation, and is in this one too. </p>
<p>My two stepsons are arriving on Sun. to visit and see their Grandpa for a few days. Maybe that will help my H in coping.</p>
<p>Has he tried saying – not harshly but firmly – “I am going back to work on Monday. Not sure what’s going to be done about Dad. You’ll need to figure that out. Here’s the number to hospice.” There’s a world of difference between that and “I need help with Dad.” The former puts the burden on the siblings, if they believe he really means it.</p>
<p>He should also make it crystal clear that you guys will not be laying out any more money. Step-brother can arrange payments directly with agencies.</p>
<p>You are right about the intent behind what H says. The other two brothers know that my H is the responsible one. H did come back home here on Fri. and told local brother “over to you now” but brother just went home and left Dad alone for about seven hrs. </p>
<p>That’s a good idea about direct payment to agencies. I hadn’t thought of that.</p>
<p>The local brother and his wife are not really rational or just don’t have very good values. They were opening advocating that Dad consider “Death with Dignity” plan (assisted suicide) which is legal in our state. It’s really not a good situation. </p>
<p>I don’t think it would work to tell them to make the arrangements for the caregivers to come in. They are too flakey to follow through on anything.</p>
<p>Wow bookiemom, what a mess and unfair to you and your husband. I’m sure there is a lot of issues in the family that seem long standing. For example, why is the step brother in control of the finances when your H is the responsible one? First, is your FiL of sound mind? Get a lawyer to the house and draft a will and a POA so that his father’s wishes can be followed. Second, inform hospice that there are no full time caregivers in the house so they can make arrangements for in house hospice care. </p>
<p>Countingdown, thinking of you during this difficult time. Often, the staff is less concerned with giving pain meds if they know the family agrees to pain control knowing that it may shorten life. Caregivers worry about being sued by the family. A conference with the Dr and nurse may be useful. </p>
<p>CPT, you certainly have your hands full. I’m not sure how you manage. I have trouble with my parents down the road and at a place where they can get as much care as they need.</p>
<p>Bookiemom- I have so many thoughts about your situation, they are tumbling around my head. I am so sorry for this mess and sad that you are dealing with resistant people. </p>
<h1>1 you and your DH cannot afford to just randomly take a month off work. I did that with my Dad and really took a hit, being self-employed it can take a bit of time to get back to full production!</h1>
<p>It is sad to have to force this on the brothers, but hey, if Dad won’t pay, maybe Dad has to be forced to see that he needs to pay. That generation is so incredibly frugal. I have a friend who rescued a man from the old folks home, he had had a stroke and could not live alone, he had no kids, his other family would not care for him. She did. He died in his lifelong home, he would only agree after being forced to pay her $500 a month. He just did not see the need…even after he had been in a home and cried to go home. It is a tough barrier to break through.</p>
<p>I would use the social worker and hospice people and maybe some tough love.</p>
<p>That cost does seem quite high, when I priced live in care for my in laws a few years ago, in a high priced area, it was about $120-200/day depending whether or not there was an agency involved.</p>
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<p>So, your FIL is mentally aware, and he is under hospice care so he doesn’t have much time left on this earth, and your BIL’s solutions is he should kill himself? Wow. I can see why you are taking over. I think most people who advocate “Death with Dignity” have in mind people who are experiencing horrible pain that cannot be alleviated and will never go away, or who are in a persistent vegetative state or something, not people who are inconveniently still alive and require care from their family.</p>
<p>Yes, that is just about right, CFang. I don’t think Dad will do the Death with Dignity plan anyway. You have to plan ahead for that; it takes over two weeks and you have to see two different drs. You can have the plan and the meds in place IN CASE you are in terrible pain and want to use it. You don’t have to use it just because you have it available. And it has to be the patient’s choice and own free will, not for someone who is so far gone that he can no longer make the decision. </p>
<p>I guess I should have been more forthright about Dad’s personality issues. He really is not completely rational, sort of an “old coot” personality. He went off on a tirade about the RN and social worker and said they are trying to steal his money and he doesn’t want them back. He pushes back on any legal arrangements or papers we try to get for him. He didn’t even have DNR papers at his house prior to being hospitalized, even though we tried multiple times to explain the need. He doesn’t want to spend any $ on anything, though this is long past the time to spend some on himself. </p>
<p>There are long-standing issues with the oldest brother in another state far away. He is not Dad’s bio son, it’s his stepson. He had the same mom as my H and BIL. He was the “golden boy” of the family, and Dad’s favorite and that’s why he is on the bank accts. Dad has always played the sons against each other. We just found out how much $ he actually has, and it is far more than we thought. </p>
<p>Hospice does not make arrangements for in-home care if you have funds and own your own home. You have to pay until you spend down your funds. We did check over all the agencies they gave us and the prices. $25/hr was the minimum for CNAs. So would be about $500/per day for full-time care even with family doing 4 hrs per day. We don’t want to get into supervising without an agency, and this is just a short time thing. I think…</p>
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<p>Sorry to butt in on this thread. I had not looked at it before, so I thought I’d see what was going on. I worked for hospice for almost eight years. Just so you know, in the case that dad’s safety is at risk and there are no caregivers (because he won’t allow them), some hospices will exercise the option of discontinuing care. You really need to talk to the hospice social worker and find out what their policies are. If you think about it, when a patient signs up for hospice, that agency is responsible for their care. If a patient is non-compliant, such as is the case when that patient refuses necessary caregivers, hospice can pull out of the home. The social worker will have had experience in dealing with difficult family situations and/or caregiver issues (and patients who stubbornly deny their need for a caregiver); that person needs to be brought on board now.</p>
<p>If dad is discharged from hospice, it is back to frequent doctor’s appointments, meaning he will have to leave the house. Doctors will likely order unnecessary tests if they’re responsible for his care. And someone will have to be responsible for picking up prescriptions (as opposed to them being delivered at home) that are being written for symptom relief. If he wants to stay at home, and not deal with this stuff, he will have to accept hospice.</p>
<p>There’s so much more I could say, based on my experience, but I will leave it at this. He is not the first person these hospice workers will encounter who will not welcome their presence. But if he doesn’t want to get back into the traditional health care system, he is up against a wall, and will have to accept it. Don’t worry about the nurse and/or social worker being offended; I can guarantee you they’ve seen it before!</p>
<p>My grandmother would send caregivers away and they took her word. </p>
<p>Just mentioning that guardianship/conservatorship is an option when there is no poa, nor advanced directives. But getting this done smoothly or on an emergency basis is complicated when families don’t agree. Honestly, I don’t remember the details; anyone who may need this path will need to see how the individual state handles it. But we had started looking at this option, just before my grandmother’s final decline. </p>
<p>In your case, bookiemom, I wonder if having a male speak with FIL could be more effective- doctor, social worker, etc. Best wishes.</p>
<p>It does seem like conservatorship may be the safest option at this point for your FIL. It is most unpleasant to go through, but what you are experiencing now is also difficult and never ending. If your husband were to back away, the social worker may have to file a report with your state’s elder care agency. Once a report is made, it goes through the court. An attorney will be appointed by the court for your FIL, they interview family members to see if someone would be willing to take over conservatorship of person and finances. Your husband can apply for both positions. An accounting of all finances and property, etc. is due to the court, as well as medical evaluations of FIL’s health and mental capacity. If the court rules in favor of conservatorship, accounts are then set up with your husband being named conservator for FIL, (BIL would no longer be named on any accounts). He would have authority to make medical and financial decisons for the care of FIL regardless of whether or not FIL wants to “spend the money”. If there is no will, at the time of death, the remaining assets go to probate. Depending upon your state laws, there could be equal distribution among siblings. While this seems complicated and harsh, it may be the best way to provide the proper care necessary. Keeping you in my thoughts!</p>
<p>How long does the procedure of setting up a conservatorship take? Bookiemom has said of her FIL, "We have no idea of his time frame, weeks probably but don’t know. "</p>
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<p>Bookiemom, your father-in-law probably doesn’t need a CNA. Agencies here also provide home health aides and home aides. My dad and stepmother have a live-in home aide who is wonderful, takes care of all the considerable needs of my stepmother who is pretty far down the path to dementia and requires a lot of physical care. I have to take the aide food shopping and fill the pill boxes (which she would do too although it’s not within her job description). And the agency sends someone else when she takes days off.</p>
<p>Not saying it’s the right thing to do, but if you decide to go that way, maybe you could try something less expensive.</p>
<p>I am not sure Bmom has time for this. We were looking at an emergency grant, naming my mother (the only child) and neither my brother nor I would dispute that, as Bmom’s step-sibling could. You need to google, naming the state. Maybe place a call to the right community or state advocates. </p>
<p>There is sometimes the option of a 3rd party (certified for guardianship, an agency rep) but there is usually a fee arrangement of some sort- and my grandmother didn’t have assets at a level that interested the party we started to work with. My mother was oos (we all were) and this would have meant local oversight. But, if it had been that sort of guardian, that person would be the decision-maker. Not just our hands-on person, as a CNA or homecare person would be.</p>
<p>Bookiemom, I have experience dealing with a personality like your FIL, and I sympathize. There are no easy answers. I would not want to pay for something that FIL can afford, and make no mistake, if you pay, you will not be reimbursed. You can never say how long someone will last with what sounds like congestive heart failure at age 99, but it can be more than a few weeks. </p>
<p>What your H should realize is that he is being manipulated by his father, brother and step brother. As long as he is there to hold things together, no one else will do a thing. If your FIL is mentally competent, and says no to paying for help, perhaps you should just listen to him. When he is there without food, and without someone to help him get to the bathroom, and perhaps falls and can not get up, maybe he will change his mind. These would likely be the logical consequences of his own decisions. Your husband is not a nurse, and his father should not want to make him into a nurse. </p>
<p>If your H insists on sacrificing himself because his father insists on it, there is probably little you can do about it without causing a major rift between you and your husband. If you can explore with your H why he feels that he must sacrifice himself for someone who is manipulating him (and seemingly abusing him) perhaps he will be able to understand his own feelings. Perhaps he is still waiting for some praise that will never come, or some realization that he is the more devoted son or whatever. It won’t be forthcoming in all likelihood.</p>
<p>In my own life, if my H left to stay with FIL, who is in similar shape to yours, I would be very hurt. My FIL has a similar personality to what you describe. My FIL, after various hospitalizations, finally hired a live in aide. He still complains about the expense, but has come to the realization that he needs this in order to stay in his own house (which is very important to him). </p>
<p>One additional thought, if your FIL is hospitalized again, and there is no one to stay with him, perhaps they can send him to short term skilled nursing (aka “rehab”, although they make little progress in that regard}. After a stint there, your FIL might be happy to hire someone to come to his place.</p>
<p>I’m joining this thread though I’m on the beginning part of the curve, not the end. </p>
<p>However, the story about not willing to hire help is really what we’re dealing with right now ourselves. My mom has a history of heart issues - is hospitalized once or twice a year getting stents, congestive heart failure, osteoporosis, fibromyalgia, spinal stenosis, rheumatoid arthritis and gout. She also plays fast and loose with her meds and I essentially accused her of practicing medicine without a license the way she decides what to take and not take. So you can imagine the shape she is in. She lives in a townhouse with 4 sets of stairs. So she literally can’t carry laundry or groceries, or really anything up and down the stairs. And no one floor can be converted for her. So she must move. For 5 years she’s needed to move. I’ve got neighbors approaching while I’m there asking why we aren’t moving her to assisted living, if we’ve lost our minds letting her stay there, etc. As if we haven’t been trying. </p>
<p>My niece lives there now but as a full time student, several part time jobs, a boyfriend and being 21 she’s a great companion, but in no way able to give her full time care. The suggestion was to find someone probably in their 50s who could come by twice a week, take her shopping, go out to lunch, to dr’s appointments, get her laundry done and put away, pick up the kitchen, and maybe just sit and drink a cup of tea with her just to make sure all is well. Mom will have no part in it. </p>
<p>Two siblings live in town. One does everything, but she does have a part time job, and other obligations and can’t/won’t/shouldn’t be her 24/7 caretaker. The other does nothing. Lives a mile away and hasn’t been over in months. Brings her to his house once a month for Sunday dinner.</p>
<p>I know there are no solutions right now, but if she won’t allow help, I doubt she ever will. She doesn’t want to live with old people, though she has no young friends. I feel like we’re just going from crisis to crisis.</p>
<p>My MIL ended up here because we/she could not keep help. She was off enough that she needed it, and yet not so off that anyone working for her, and, we, for that matter could just dismiss her actions in firing, refusing to pay, refusing to cooperate, etc for things that were for her own good So she paid, the hard way. Fell asleep on a chair she should not have been sitting in, fell off of it, broke her hip, and then it was “game over” for independent living for her and she suffered terribly from the injury that made her transition so abruptly from living in her own house , to nursing home and our home. That’s what her obdurence and whatever lack of mental facility cost her. Don’t know if it was caused by degeneration of thought processes or it was just her, because this had been an ongoing problem for many year. She could not keep any help and had trouble dealing with people, paying bills, doing anything she did not feel like doing. It’s just at age 50 and being healthy, you wallow in your own mess when you live that way. When you are age 80 and are hard of hearing, break your hip and have other issues, family and services have to step into your business. </p>
<p>Had she been better about these things she probably would have been able to live in her own home, pretty much the way she pleased for another 5 years or so. Maybe even till now. But, nope. Once that hip broke and then other issues came into play, she lost it all.</p>
<p>GTAlum, for now, it’s not bad at all. I have someone come in three days a week to scrub down MIL, her room and bathroom and wash her clothes, and stay with her for several hours. MIL is so slow in getting up and getting washed up and changed, using the bathroom going to bed–and she takes a nap mid day, that it really takes up the whole day for her to do these things Good thing too, as there is absolutely nothing that interests her. We spent a year, trying ot accommodate her, find things for her to do, enjoy, and nothing worked. So she spends most of the day getting up and into bed, making it for meals and cleaning her self and changing clothes She always took way to long doing those things which used to make all of us including my self burn, but now it’s an advantage as she has all of the time in the world and it gives her something to do.</p>
<p>My mother sits in front of the TV most of the day, drinking her tea and snacking. She’s barely 70 lbs. i try to get her out a couple of times a week, to do a little shopping, for her groceries, or something, anything, but she really hates to move from her chair. That friggin’ chair has everything but a built in commode, I swear. She comes out of her room for less than an hour a day, unless I really force it. </p>
<p>So neither are much trouble. That MIL is so immobile, she is in a wheel chair, uses the walker only for very short distances, and so slow, makes it so that I can duck out of the house for short periods of time. Leave my mother’s door open and if there is an emergency, she can call 911, as she is full cognisant. </p>
<p>But the next swirl of the downward spiral can mean a lot of work, trouble and money for either mother. So I am enjoying this time while I can.</p>
<p>Welcome to the thread, eyeamom. As you see, you’re not alone.</p>