<p>Fair warning-
When my dad was back in the hospital, we continued to pay the caretakers to keep them on board.</p>
<p>I suppose you could have told her the money would last a year, that by her next birthday or next Thanksgiving (some meaningful marker,) she would be moving. Didn’t you or someone (or me?) suggest treating AL as interim- they are discharging you to “this facility.” She may explode if you call it AL or when she realizes, but you can answer various questions or criticisms with “I don’t know.”</p>
<p>'My grandmother loved her IL (if I sometimes call it AL, it’s bec she had more services than usual IL.) But I was raised on stories of “bad” kids who put their relatives in “a home.” </p>
<p>She could be transported by ambulance to AL, from the nursing home. You may need to get a doc to sign off on that, so it’s not considered optional. Maybe Medicare would pay a chunk.</p>
<p>Also, not sure I’d pull out the paperwork, if she refuses AL. I think I might say, I did do some looking, have some notes, but I want this decision to be about what’s best for her, where she truly needs to be. I don’t think I’d want anyone there to hedge, say “Oh gosh, look at those AL costs.” If I could control for that.</p>
<p>Btw, my mother did the same things about the groceries- but added size, coupons, discounts from sales flyers and other addl instructions like get the butcher to cut it in two and repack it, but not xxx paper, have him use yyy. Later it could be, you didn’t get this! Or you got too much that! Little circus pony. She only drinks Minute Maid oj (store A) and only likes creamer from B and the powdered milk from C. Right now, the line I drew is working.</p>
<p>Adding to #3481. I love the line from Dangerous Liaisons: “it’s…beyond…my…control.”</p>
<p>
Then it is her responsibility. Let her find the aides, figure out the transportation, do the RM work, make the phone calls, have the meetings. And figure out how to pay for it.</p>
<p>Dharma, you are under no obligation – legal, moral or familial – to assist someone in harming herself. NO obligation. </p>
<p>I don’t want to encourage you to let this go this time, but if/when she ends up back in the hospital can you be absolutely stone cold ready to say “No” to at home care after that? (And if so what is the difference?)</p>
<p>You need to have the doctors be the bad guys. As long as you don’t set up everything at home as you’re planning, they will tell her that she has no choice but to go to AL. Now is the time to do it. If you get her back into her house and then find it’s not working it will then be nearly impossible to move her. You are the one making it difficult to get her into AL by telling her she has a choice. Pick the one that works best for BOTH of you and then make it happen. I think you are just prolonging the misery by waffling. Use your gut, take one option off the table and make it happen. You know full well the pros and cons of each. When we moved mom to AL from rehab, we made sure that she was told by nurse and doctor, etc. that they would only dismiss her to there. Hard, hard, hard. But you are realistically looking at a full time job managing her care at home. No matter how you crunch those numbers. IMHO, less cruel one hard move and adjustment than a series of them that is surely coming down the line. My heart goes out to you. You are a good daughter and deserve to give yourself a break. AL can be a wonderful thing, especially for the social. There is also the issue of oversight - constant in AL, but you will never know what is truly going on at her house.</p>
<p>I think maybe those caretakers you set up have all found other jobs, HINT HINT. And you can’t find any other caretakers, so sorry. But luckily you do know of several assisted living facilities.</p>
<p>Also I think that you may have discovered that because you need to help your daughters with their college search and parent them in other ways, you are unable to be an unpaid taxi service, bookkeeper and shopper. Unfortunately, it’s just not possible, so sorry, you just can’t make the time to do all those jobs with your busy life. And you may have found that even in the face of rudeness, drama, screaming, tipping things over and other acting out, it’s still impossible. </p>
<p>I’m just sayin’.</p>
<p>I AGREE WITH THE LAST HALF DOZEN POSTS, yes, Dharma, I am shouting. STOP, just stop. She is a lifelong manipulator. You are a kind generous person, but you are too close. She is twisting you. I know my FIL can manipulate me if I am around too much or in a vulnerable mind state.</p>
<p>One thing to consider, remember in all things you do for your Mom, nothing will ever be enough. Therefore, get some guidance and do the right things, which may not be what she wants. Do NOT sacrifice your family to the hope of her approval.</p>
<p>I made the mistake of going to my in laws for several months (it was not planned, just the way things turned out) when they had a health emergency and their caregiver had walked out just before (with good reason). It turned out that was a turning point in them needing more care. Worst of all, my sacrifice & my family’s sacrifice made no difference in our relationships, they had no ongoing appreciation. There were some positives that came out of it, but I can never again have that senior year of DD’s of which I missed a huge chunk.</p>
<p>Do NOTHING, don’t find caregivers, don’t do her shopping, don’t take her to the doctor or the hairdresser, don’t give the aides a ride. Tell the hospital/ nursing home team that Mom has nothing in place and nothing available. Ask them to discharge her ‘temporarily’ to the best choice AL place, see if she can learn to like it if she sees it as temporary. My friend did that with her Mom and Mom never went home & Mom is happy now, but no way they could have gotten Mom voluntarily out of her condo.</p>
<p>somemom and others, thanks for the suggestions above. We have this situation looming ahead of us, and the suggestion of making it impossible to go home from a post-hospital rehab is likely to come in very handy. Good luck to all who are dealing with these issues.</p>
<p>Back home and its all over. Before I left to go to the NH I had one last talk with the super social worker and we worked out a way to “trick” my mother. First, at the NH, my mother and I interviewed Polish woman #3 (I’ll describe later). Then we had the caregiver meeting at 1. I had spoken my prepared “speech” in my head so many times I was going crazy. First the SW asked my mother to comment on her physical therapy progress and her general health progress. The she asked the PT director and the nurse to comment on how “on target” my mother’s remarks were. Both defined her progress as very good and said that the MD had said she should be discharged early or mid-week next week. Then the Social Worker began the trick. She asked my mother, What are your plans for the future? She explained that she would have a 24/7 caregiver. The SW replied, your daughter and I don’t think that’s the best plan for you. Your daughter tells me you will not listen to her about the advantages of Assisted Living. We want to give your daughter an opportunity to talk about what she has learned and why Assisted Living is in your best interest.So I started out very sweetly, saying how successful my mother had been at living alone for 8 years since my father’s death. I explained that she and I agreed that the time had come that she can no longer live in the house alone. I reminded her that she had asked me to consult the elder care lawyer, and that both the lawyer and I had studied my mother’s assets in great detail, and based on that study and my mother’s health, we agreed that Assisted Living was in her best interest. I told her I had called AL in xx and they had a room that would be a good budget choice with many services available. The SW said thank you and asked my mother to reply. My mother said, this is about my HEART and what is in my HEART and you are ignoring that I am your mother and what is best for my HEART. Then she said something insulting which I will not repeat. It will not affect her at all that she made the remark; she will call me from the NH tomorrow PM as usual. This is like the routine where she hangs up on me with an angry remark then calls me the next day with a shopping list. I then asked the Social Worker if I could ask a couple of questions. I asked, Did I explain the differences, and the advantages of Assisted Living over caregivers, financially and health wise, in a clear way? The SW said, yes. Then I asked, Do you think my mother understands everything I explained? She gave me a meaningful look and said, Yes. </p>
<p>Before I wrap this up, I will talk about the Polish caregiver. I liked her and so did my mother. She is very extroverted and warm. She wants the job and evidently we will hire her. There is a big plus in that she worked as a physical therapist and nurse’s aide in a hospital in Poland for 15 years. She told me to buy a blood pressure cuff and a stethoscope, both of which she knows how to use. Her four reference letters (11 years of service) were excellent and show she has worked with hospice people, Altzheimer’s people, very sick people. She wants internet service and will pay for it herself. I told her the money would last 2-3 years. Also (since she would be 7 days) I told her I was worried about what would happen when she needs to take a day off to go to the MD or whatever. She said she knows other women with whom she would make arrangements to cover the absence.</p>
<p>After, with the lawyer’s help, I set up the reverse mortgage and the payroll arrangement, I am determined to stay as far away as possible, make sure she gets her MD rides from the Resource Center, and do grocery shopping and CVS only once a week.Since Barbara will be there, the evening calls and dog-walk drop-ins will stop. Since Barbara will be in 7 days there isn’t much of a taxi issue. I can also just tell her to walk; it is just under a mile. </p>
<p>As I was leaving the NS I looked into the faces of some of the old people and they seemed so “normal.” The gestalt is a little more complicated than being my being "manipulated."I cannot escape or control her.If I simply walked away, whom would she call? The police? The priest? Swallow all her pills? I have never answered her back,(I am actually afraid she would hit me) and my attempts to draw her into the real world, as this drama serves as an example, always fail and result in her getting what she wants. She was often in the psych hospital during my elementary yrs (children alone at home till dad got off the train); she was an alcoholic (scotch) during my HS school years and consequently quite absent (to her credit she quit cold turkey when she fell in the middle of the night and hurt herself quite badly.). Then college, moved out…12 years ago a house down the street from me went on the market and everyone, me, her shrink, her coworkers, told her it was a bad idea for her to move so close to me. She did what she wanted. One day while driving her to the grocery store or somewhere she said, It was a good thing we moved so close, wasn’t it?</p>
<p>In the interest of full disclosure, my in laws have paid caregivers all day not AL. But they are still competent and have made all their own arrangements and refuse any and all suggestions. MIL wishes she could still drive (physically impossible) and I remind FIL to take the same tactic we are discussing. Don’t argue with MIL about driving, tell her to go do it, but don’t help her. It would be literally impossible for her to even get to the car.</p>
<p>Same with home caregivers, if the parent needs you to make it work then you have that much power, the power to step back and let them handle it. I do have to remind DH not to take ownership, that this is the way his parents choose to live and we need to respect it.</p>
<p>Dharma, my heart goes out to you. </p>
<p>Quick recap since it’s been several pages since my last post. Dad passed away in February, mom - 89 - wants to continue living in the house. Their much beloved cargiver - 3 days a week/ 5 hrs - was injured shortly after dad’s funeral. Mom has been unhappy with the replacement options. </p>
<p>But…oh…happy…day!!! I navigated to a wonderful agency and had such a good feeling about their work from the moment I met the owner. So, mom now has a new caregiver whom she LIKES! And, found mom a housekeeper - whom she LIKES. </p>
<p>We are making progress with all the trust stuff which needs to be handled after the first trustee departs. As it stands…only one more piece of paper outstanding. Once this arrives it is all in the lawyer’s hands. Of course, once he finishes I’ll be taking mom to all the financial institutions to re-title accounts as needed.</p>
<p>One funny story to pass along. Several days ago we closed all accounts at one particular bank. Checks were issued and we said ‘Thanks’.</p>
<p>I get an email stating ‘Your Account is Overdrawn by XXXX’ (rather goodly sum which is exactly the balance at time of account closure). You have been assessed at $35 fee. Okay I thought, I’ll let it ride for a day or so until computer system A and computer system B figure it all out. Nope, same email for two more days. Finally I call…
Okay…are you ready…</p>
<ol>
<li>The bank miscalculated the interest by .05
2 The .05 was DUE to mom</li>
<li>So…since the account wasn’t officially closed (and showed a balance of .05) mom was assessed a $35 penalty.</li>
</ol>
<p>Supposedly the issue is now resolved and account is close and fee has been reversed. I am eagerly awaiting my .05 check!!!</p>
<p>As is so often the case in this phase of life…ya just can’t make this stuff up.</p>
<p>dietz - what do you have to do when the first trustee dies?</p>
<p>^^^ My parents have a revocable living trust. At the death of the first trustee the trust is split. Half the assets go into the deceased split trust, the other half into the remaining trustees split trust. You need to give the valuation of each asset on the date of death. This has required real estate appraisals as well as detailed valuations for brokerage accounts. It was all more important when the estate tax exemption was much lower. I think it’s around 5M/pp now so unless one is hitting those limits the valuations are somewhat less critical. (But as per our lawyer, it’s always best to have the appropriate and verifiable paper trail).</p>
<p>Then, depending on how the original trust was written, some accounts/assets may need to be retitled to reflect the new split trust.</p>
<p>When the last trustee dies, the split trusts are dissolved and assets go to the inheritors - based on the instructions in the trust.</p>
<p>Oh Dharma. :(</p>
<p>Questions that occur off the top. First, did I miss something? What was the trick? It looks to me like your mom got exactly what she wants.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Sweetie, you have ALL of the control. She cannot get one day into her little scheme without your help. And if you said No to her, that’s the end of the scheme. As far as walking away, she’d call… you. And she would have to listen to you, knowing that you were capable of walking right away again. </p>
<p>Try a little experiment for me. When she calls tomorrow evening, don’t answer the phone. Turn off the ringer and put the phone in the car if you have to, but don’t answer. Sure, she’ll be mad. So what? Take back some of your power.</p>
<p>Another question, the one we started with. What happens when the money runs out? It will probably be under two years, perhaps well under.</p>
<p>And another, perhaps the biggest one. As you break your back to do this, as you continue to sacrifice yourself and your family and your peace of mind and your life for her unhealthy desires (and don’t kid yourself, she will NOT allow you to step away after the RM is settled), what will be the outcome? Will she become a gracious, grateful mother to you? You know the answer. She will remain the same abusive bully she’s always been. </p>
<p>I’m sure you taught your daughters that the only way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them. It’s terrifying, because every fiber of your being screams your fear, and the urgent need to give them what they want so they’ll leave you alone. But does appeasing a bully ever work? Never. They only come back worse than before. Take back your power!</p>
<p>I’m sorry if I seem harsh. I have tears in my eyes as I type this. I see your mom pulling you back into a toxic relationship, and I don’t want that! You don’t deserve this, and you don’t have to take it. It’s not too late. Take back that power!!! </p>
<p>The posts today are good.
Codependency.</p>
<p>Amen, Lasma.</p>
<p>dharma: I second or third LasMa and others. PLUS I have to ask why is it OK to sacrifice your daughter and your husband on the alter of this selfish woman? Just because they won’t hit you or cry they don’t deserve your time and attention? And Don’t you have to have some SELF care, too? It is OK to take it you know. You have to put on your own oxygen mask before you can help others. </p>
<p>My husband pounded that into my head that HE was being sacrificed to my mother’s needs. If he hadn’t been so forceful, I would have gone too far in taking care of her and her stuff. And my mother was never the bully that your mom is.</p>
<p>We also did the “bait and switch”, got Mom into the Independent living side of the aid place and then moved her to the assisted side. A year and a half later, she is mostly glad she is there and not having to worry so much about keeping everything together. Your mom seems somewhat more mentally there, although unless suicide threats are just manipulation, her mental state really isn’t all that great either!</p>
<p>Best wishes to everyone. There are many paths to good solutions and you have to live with your choices. Every family is a little different and will get to where they are working as well as they can. I don’t judge people and their choices with elders. I think I learned THAT lesson when I had different ways to raise my kids than my brother did and all that generation turned out just fine. </p>
<p>
With my Mom I tried to get to a story that had the real truth embedded in it.</p>
<p>Mom I’ve been trying to find caretakers what will make it so being home is the best and safest option for you and I have not been find caretakers that will make this happen so you’re going to this facility temporary … as soon as I can find caretakers that make home the best and safest place for you then we’ll walk about getting you home.</p>
<p>Big caveat … my Mom already had dimentia … so when we moved her into assisted living she pretty much forgot about home about 95% of the time … so the questions about returning home were very infrequent. If your Mom will will be asking about home all the time then the pseudo lie diversion story might not be a great idea.</p>