<p>Himom - this is someone I’ve had a 20 year relationship with. I plan on moving those accounts out of T Rowe Price but I’m kind of stuck because I can’t move them if they don’t recognize my DPOA. </p>
<p>LasMa – because they’re buttheads. It is mean, but I hope that all of the legal department staffers who caused us such trouble at BofA , Putnam, and Computershare have elderly parents of their own who become incapacitated, and then they can get a taste of their own cooking. </p>
<p>We ended up with a POA form that I modified to explicitly reference every possible type of entity/holding as well as incorporating a HIPAA release, explicit statement that it allowed for sale or retitling of real property, sale of motor vehicles, … That was accepted a lot more widely, especially when I highlighted the relevant section before handing the copy over. That worked for life insurance, selling a car, selling stock, and transferring assets from one brokerage to another, though the last took months. Social Security would never accept anything but their own form. We actually had to haul my poor mom in her wheelchair twenty miles to the SS office because she was aphasic and couldn’t respond to their verification questions on the phone. </p>
<p>Dharma, hope all’s well. </p>
<p>Just got an email from FIL wondering if we can have a powwow with all the kids to help them make some decisions, again. We all would go help, but we have done this repeatedly, he does not want help, or at least he does not want any of the help we ever offer, even when responding to specific requests. Essentially he cannot do it all by himself any longer, but refuses to relinquish any control of his life. So, instead of accepting help, he has his caregiver doing things like balancing his check book. We all went there in May & last summer & the year before all together as well as other trips with just one family or another. This year we left early he was so mean & nasty to everyone trying to help with things he had asked for. Grrr</p>
<p>And I quote:
I know that my brain is failing me. I can’t make decisions and can’t solve simple mechanical problems. Can’t discuss this with {wife}. {Caregiver} sees my lack of memory, ansd often jokes about it, but it isn’t a joking matter I’m thinking Alzheimers.I still drive ok, don’t get lost’ know wher I’m going and get there safely</p>
<p>Summarizing it as:
Can’t see. Can’t hear. Can’t drive. Can’t think. Can’t walk. Can’t care for {wife}. Can’t handle personal finances. Can’t think about anybody or anything except in relation to how it affects him. Alienates, hurts and bullies the people whom he claims to love </p>
<p>We’ve probably discussed this already, but is there any way you can take the car keys away from him and “lose” them, before he hurts somebody?</p>
<p>Thank you everyone for the support on our longish trip! I’m getting over the guilt and worry.</p>
<p>Mom really does like the two new caregivers in her life. Fingers crossed…maybe this is long term…although who can even guess what that means. I will pursue the AL option, I just have to be careful how I approach the topic.</p>
<p>esobay: H and I have run into resistance even when POA’s are signed, notarized and in hand. One bank told H the POA is of no value while his mom is still alive. Well…WTH…MIL is as daffy as they come when it concerns financial stuff. She too would sign anything put in front of her. She can’t answer some questions (what is the name of your pet…um…haven’t had one in about 15 years…so…not a clue what her deceased H would have put as an answer). H tries to help her with the questions and is told he is coaching her and they will have to ask him to leave. AND they shut down all electronic access - forever - to his mom’s accounts. BUT, his SSN is on all of her accounts so…guess what…they are accessible via his SSN but under our login ID. </p>
<p>Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid,…</p>
<p>CF- I wish we could and he even has a live in caregiver who could drive him, she rides along and she is the tattle tale that keeps us informed a bit. FIL is still not to the point where we could require guardianship and make his decisions plus we are all 1500+ miles away so even the times we talk him into not driving, he can start again any old time he pleases.</p>
<p>Dietz – they are really, really stupid – if the POA is not good when the person is alive, when do they think it IS good? POA dies when the person dies. The moment my dad passed my POA for him was invalid, and it wasn’t until I was appointed executrix that I had any authority over his estate.</p>
<p>Arabrab - that is the difference between the POA and the DPOA. The durable power of attorney last past incompetence and death. This is what is frustrating about the bank’s POA they want me to fill out. Their POA is not durable. My durable power of attorney should trump theirs. </p>
<p>I explicitly TOLD Vanguard and Schwab that I thought it was nuts that they wouldn’t label their form DURABLE POWER OF ATTORNEY and wouldn’t allow the same form to survive any incapacity of the parties, which is what those forms are for. I have no problem with trying to find and fill out whatever forms they have when everyone is fine and lucid but it makes no sense to have to have someone declare another incompetent and all the expense and bother that entails. Fidelity has the label, “DURABLE POWER OF ATTORNEY” on the top of their form. They are the only one of the three companies that does so, so that’s where we moved a LOT of our funds.</p>
<p>Why should families have to keep re-doing all of this? Why do we have attorneys draw us up great forms that are notarized and recognized in the state but allow various financial institutions and others to disregard the forms and require their OWN forms and quirks. It’s CRAZY and can cause a lot of hardship and expense (including possible guardianship and competency hearings). </p>
<p>Hmmm GTAlum – Nolo seems to think the DPOA dies at death. </p>
<p>As predicted we got the usual Roseanne Roseanna Danna email back today, “never mind” to the whole “I have to move to a home, come and help me now” tantrum. I cannot even keep track of the number of times he has pulled this stuff, but at least now we know and don’t jump every time he hollers.</p>
<p>Sorry arabab, you are correct. </p>
<p>Himom the Vanguard form I filled out 3 days ago said durable power of attorney. I don’t get T Rowe Price though. They have the regular POA (requiring a medallion signature of course) which allows me to act as POA until incapacity but to act past incapacity, I actually have to transfer the account to me! I’m having a run around with their legal team right now. It’s crazy, why would I act for my parents unless they were incompetent? </p>
<p>The issues with banks requiring their own forms (and often later changing what is required) is most annoying. Other things to note in this regard: </p>
<p>If elders have a safety deposit box, double check exactly what the bank requires for access. We thought we were all set with a bank near my in-laws, but when DH went to check it out, paper work was not done to the satisfaction of the person in charge at the bank that day. (Did exactly what another staff member had directed previously). Required a lot to get all three names re-done. Also, banks can require that the account holder/s be there at the bank, which becomes undesirable, if not impossible for some. Pro-activity on this could matter in a crisis.</p>
<p>Last time I spoke with Social Security, they informed me that to act on my father’s behalf, my DPOA was meaningless. I needed to show up at local SS office, with a letter from his Dr. documenting his incompetence and they would “consider” my request. The fact that he lives in a skilled nursing memory care unit (highest level of care), was not relevant to them. I could bring my DPOA, but it might not matter. They are so busy “protecting” the elders that you can’t easily do what you are designated to do. This is less of an issue with auto-deposit (fewer changes of address, etc), but still could matter. </p>
<p>Best to everyone. </p>
<p>I got myself added as an owner/signer of the safe deposit box when it was set up. That’s the one thing we won’t have any problem with down the road. </p>
<p>I have good news. Mom’s new caregiver is really wonderful. She called me last night to report on mom’s doctors visits. Mom was scheduled to see two physicians located in different offices. The actual geographic distance between the offices is small, but parking is a big big problem. Anyway, it was suggested that mom see a THIRD physician. The caretaker got her to all three appointments, took notes on what happened, had mom schedule her follow ups to coincide with the caregiver schedule, and then they went for coffee. They really like each other. This caregiver is just re-entering the workforce and finds mom to be just a perfect client. </p>
<p>I’m feeling rather blessed. This gives me with the ability to spend time with mom and not have every moment consumed with life management details. Fingers crossed this situation last for a while.</p>
<p>That’s a dream caretaker, dietz! Congratulations. I’ll keep my fingers crossed for you.</p>
<p>dietz, YAY, now you can take a breath! fingers crossed for sure.</p>
<p>The banks did hassle with the POA, and the insurance. But her stock account at Ed Jones were very very nice. Most of Mom’s assets were in her trust already (house and rentals) so once we got her off and us (bro and I) on as trustees, most stuff with that goes very well. I didn’t have any trouble with getting to be the representative payee for SS, but never ever for two years now have gotten the IRS to agree to any form of representation. Mom had signed that her tax lady could handle her tax questions so we left it at that, but it is about to expire. Formal guardianship doesn’t seem to have ANY clout that I can tell, except with Dr. visits, but sometimes they want the health care directive as well. The only people who really seem to know about the guardianship is the AL place. They were really glad I had it when they banned Mom from going out with her neighbor. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You’re livin the dream. Good work!</p>
<p>Congratulations dietz! Really good news.</p>
<p>Facing renewed discouraging financial realities regarding my mother’s assets and facing newed resistance on her part to even look at the facts as I uncover them. Mon, Tues, and today, I spent at the computer completing all the forms necessary for her to set up tax payments she as an employer is now responsible for.Plus a lot of misc paperwork associated with the employment agency, etc. I am using the payroll agency the lawyer recommended and the woman I am working for is so very wonderful. She stays on the phone with me as we go through each IRS doc page by page, tells me to reread and not to rush, and waits patiently while I fill in all the same info over and over. Had to scan over to her at least a dozen docs. Had to go to mother’s house to get POA to get a particular doc notarized w/POA at the bank. My kids are doing meals all on their own (popcorn, for instance…)</p>
<p>The payroll woman worked out for me that the bi-monthly “net” of $2,100 we agreed to with the caregiver will be $2,802.36 gross. But the shocker was, get ready, bi-monthly my mother’s own taxes and cost responsibilities as an employer come to $364.30. I was stunned. Yes, thats bi-monthly. I quickly called the woman and asked if the high cost was because the job was 24/7 because if so, my mother managed well enough that we could change it to 9-5. She said no, the figure was solely based on the bi-monthly salary of $2,802.36. ALSO the payroll agency gets $40.88 bi-monthly; there is a set up fee of $25, an end of yr filing fee of $40,and$5.50 to process the w-2. </p>
<p>I typed this all up and totalled it up and asked the NH to track my mother and have her call me. They did. I told her, you must listen, your costs with the caregiver are going to be very high, higher than I knew last week. Let me itemize them for you.I have it all written down for you. You know, you can start with the caregiver for a month, visit the AL “resort”, have a meal, meet the residents,even stay over night. You can shift from the caregiver after a month or two, sell the house, and have much more for nice years at the AL (which is truly like a resort…horse country…stately maples…beautiful farmhouse main bldg,laundry, nurses,entertainments, good food.) She didn’t interrupt me! But she replied in a slow, stately way," Dharma, IF you mention THE RESORT TO ME ONE MORE TIME I WILL TIE YOU UP AND SEND YOU THERE. I will live at home until I run out of money and then I’ll go back to (name of nursing home)." I thought it was funny that if she ties me up, how is she going to get anything done? In his long talk w/me last wk the shrink did that same old talk of my mother "making her own choices"and remarked that she was “fully cognizant” but she is ignoring reality.She is cognizant, but given her situation she must be truly crazy, but no one but I (and my husband) can see it, and it is quite frightening. I open her mail, and today she got a bill for $1,800 in heating oil. She would not have that in AL. </p>
<p>There is still a lot to do with the payroll process, and then the much more involved reverse mortgage. Seeing these costs pile up, I don’t know about "waiting"on the RM. The rep I talked to said it took "at least a month"from start to finish. </p>
<p>I will leave the cost breakdown–and the earlier analysis of AL–with her tomorrow when I bring her home and ask her to read them. My husband got out his calculator and said she has enough for 3 years (however, he thinks she will get more for the house than I do.)</p>
<p>I pick her up (and then the caregiver) after lunch tomorrow. Last night I got the shopping list over the phone. I stocked the fridge and cupboards today… Strawberries described EXACTLY AS THEY SHOULD LOOK,everything minutely defined.</p>
<p>My mother uses a magnifying glass to read (macular degeneration). She is doing this to spite me because I haven’t invited her to come live here. So because she can hardly read, I will be doing all the payroll,banking,tax filing, whatever else unknown, and all the work associated with the RM.BUT I haven’t given up hope that once the whole machine is “up and running” and I am good at “running things” because no one else would/could (no help with the college app process,for instance, and BOTH parents only visited the college once, on graduation day. Bard allowed freshmen to have cars and I moved in day 1 on my own) the tasks will become routine and manageable. But with caregiver in the house, my presence will become rare, and once she settles back in, I think on some level, after all this painful back and forth, she will not be surprised, or even care.</p>