Parents caring for the parent support thread (Part 1)

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<p>I know she will say no to the lawyer. Im doing iit for my own satisfaction and peace of mind that i tried the most expert voice to reach her,but even the lawyer said its her choice.As ive written, about six people have said so, including two Mds and two SWs. She is too strong willed to compel, insist or force, believe me, you would have to meet her to understand. she will run out of money and go to a traditional nh, the one she liked. I called admissions and they take medicaid and never have a waiting list.</p>

<p>Lasma, thank you for your story, i will lok at the post you cited. I did look back and read the earlier ones.</p>

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<p>Dharmawheel, what everyone is saying is that she couldn’t stay home if you didn’t work long hours to facilitate it. Now, mind you, I did the same for my dad and stepmother. But no way they could have done it without me, nor could she do it without you.</p>

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<p>Yes Dharmawheel, because of you, she can have a choice. Without you, there is no choice. I struggle with the same things. Only recently have I realized that my parents really don’t have logical reasoning abilities anymore and my choice is theirs. </p>

<p>Great Dragonmom. So wonderful your parent’s are thinking ahead. 3 years is a long time. You might want to see if there is a second choice that will have a shorter wait list just in case. </p>

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<p>We have to watch for how we enable. And how we convince ourselves the personal sacrifices are worth it, that one day, the other will see the light, give us the approval we sought for decades. “If only I keep trying.” Or, “If I can just get this right.” All the while, the other sees the power they have to keep yanking your chain. A vicious cycle. The carrot: the hope one day you will be good enough, right enough. </p>

<p>As predicted, (after D2’s massive cleaning efforts,) my mother reports the building mgt was so nice, told her how much they like her, what a good tenant she is, smart, kind, etc, and how nice her apt looks. That’s her take-away. </p>

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<p>“even the lawyer said its her choice.As i’ve written, about six people have said so, including two Mds and two SWs. She is too strong willed to compel, insist or force, believe me, you would have to meet her to understand. she will run out of money and go to a traditional nh, the one she liked. I called admissions and they take medicaid and never have a waiting list.”</p>

<p>Would a judge say it is her choice to let her money run out and go on Medicaid essentially to care for her when her money runs out? What would happen if you stopped facilitating her being at home?</p>

<p>I do understand a strong-willed mother, and mine was mentally ill (bi-polar, and later dementia). Brother enabled her for a while, then eventually he was able to work out ‘control’ due to her deteriorating situation and our outside interventions. There would be no way in h*** that any of us would allow the draining of assets and then 1/3 of house value thrown away with reverse mortgage, only to have mother in worse health care situation under medicaid.</p>

<p>Your mother has some underlying mental health issues to make the poor decision and behaving the way she does.</p>

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<p>What you mean is that she’s too strong willed to persuade. What we’re all saying is that it’s time to give up on trying to persuade her.</p>

<p>The way you “compel, insist or force” is very very very simple, Dharma. You merely stop doing what you’re doing. She cannot stay in her home without your assistance. So stop assisting.</p>

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<p>Agree with the above–this is what nearly all the posts to you have agreed upon, Dharma. Continuing to assist your mom in draining her assets is NOT helping her or yourself. Giving 1/3 of the value of her home to the reverse mortgage folks only helps THEM and your mom will be in much worse shape financially and medically by remaining in her home WITH your help. STOP helping her, period. Your sister already has stopped even responding to you or her.</p>

3728

<p>Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto.</p>

<p>Dharma, I understand your frustration with your sister who has chosen to remain completely uninvolved with her mother’s care but from what you have written, it is clear why she has made this choice. Your mother isn’t reasonable and shows no appreciation for what is done for her - unless it is exactly what she wants. In a measure of self-preservation, your sister has choen to remover herself from this most unhealthy situation. </p>

<p>You may feel that you have no choice but to help your mom, but what you are really doing is enabling her poor choices. Everyone has pointed out that your mom is being foolish. Stop letting her be foolish with your assistance. Let her be foolish on her own time and using her own resources. </p>

<p>It’s time for you to get a life and stop being so involved in your mom’s life. Let her find another person who’ll put up with her extremely detailed grocery lists. Stop talking with her every day. Just stop and do the things that you need to be doing with your family. They will appreciate you for it. And they will feel valued. Right now they may feel a bit unloved as ‘mom’s too busy to be with me/do what I need her to do because mom’s always busy with grandma.’ Of course it is fine occasionally, but when it’s this frequent, hard feelings are bound to erupt. </p>

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<p>The senior residential care industry is a dynamic one, in terms of ownership. Over the last 4.5 years, my parents’ AL has been sold once, and the NH they utilitize has been sold twice. </p>

<p>With new ownership comes new management and new policies. So when your mom becomes destitute in 18 months or so, her NH may or may not take Medicaid. I wouldn’t bet much on it.</p>

<p>Also, vacancy rates fluctuate significantly. So I also wouldn’t bet on there being a spot for her in 18 months.</p>

<p>But more to the point, when she becomes destitute in 18 months or so, I bet she’ll refuse to go to the NH after all. Right now she’s saying that’s what she wants, but she is a master manipulator. She knows very well that if she were to tell you NOW that her plan is to move in with you, you would move heaven and earth to get her into AL. But when the time comes, she will put up just as much of a fight as she’s doing now, probably more. So if you let her stay in her house, you need to be preparing yourself for the mother of all fights not too far in the future.</p>

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<p>Just Say No sounds abrupt, but it starts with taking that first small step. If you weren’t so deeply involved, would all hell break loose? Probably not, with her good and experienced aide. We all want them to love us, but we have to be able to love ourselves, separate from their approval. And separate from the risk of their disapproval and that cycle. </p>

<p>Maybe go visit the college D or take all the kids to the beach, maybe stay overnight somewhere, get yourself away from the choices and these tasks. Maybe let the lawyer or an accountant fill out future paperwork or run numbers. Try to throw off the chains you can. You will be there in a crisis, but on a daily basis, you need to allow yourself to breathe. Don’t underestimate this, don’t play “just a few more hours” or later this fall I will have time for my girls or ask everyone else to be governed by your mom’s demands. You know the damage it already cause you, over decades, think about how these things perpetuate.</p>

<p>If there is a real crisis, if all hell does break loose, then you will be there. Right now, you have to ask yourself why you are enabling her, what you personally get from this that is worth that. </p>

3731

<p>I just did the calculation, and the shrink whom she has been seeing for a remarkable 42 years told me, “It is her choice.” Her personal care physician said the same thing, exactly. And the elder lawyer–to whom I showed the cost comparison said the same thing, exactly, and she was looking at the NUMBERS. So did two Social Workers, one at each Nursing Home. All of them assumed I would be the enabler in whatever choice she made. If she did choose Assisted Living, wouldn’t I have to enable her to visit, give deposit, pay, move her furniture, sell her house, etc? Sell/auction the goods? How can I step out of my role as “enabler?” Now that I have essentially finished the paperwork and the choice has been made, I plan to do my administrative duties, but avoid personal involvement. If she were to have chosen to go to AL, “Just say No” wouldn’t have worked either because she needs someone to get her there, situated, and sell the house and goods. </p>

<p>I changed my mind slightly about the visit to the elder-care lawyer on Monday. I had said I had planned to privately show the eldercare lawyer the revised cost comparison and talk to my mother about that. I changed my mind. I will show the elder-care lawyer the cost-comparison and ask her to use her judgment as to whether she feels the differences and the elements of the situation ( I will tell her my mother has forbidden me from talking to her about it) warrant a comment from her, or whether she/we should let my mother sink her own ship. She will see the difference in cost and from her expertise, she will understand the scenario. I will put it in her professional hands and let her be the judge. </p>

<p>Oh yes, the Case Manager for my mother at my county’s Office for the Aging also said Its my mother’s choice. She knows her personally (visits the house periodically). Knowing my mother’s disabilities, she is sure that her health review in the future will approve her for a NH. Even NOW. She also said there are MANY in my county and you can get on a waiting list for one you like better. Obviously, I have been obsessive about advice and everyone I talk to just takes it for granted that I, as the only daughter involved and nearby, am clearly expected as if through a law of nature to be an “enabler.” So, as to , why am I enabling her? How can I leave a crippled, nearly blind, nearly deaf elder with digestive , heart, and blood pressure problems, fend for herself? I would have to “enable” her into the AL–the dollar cost of which is still high–and she may be assessed at needing a high (more expensive) level of care that may make the cost nearly as high OR AS HIGH as the elder-care giver. </p>

<p>LasMa, as for a confrontation in the future about moving in to my house, I will use superpowers to prevent this that she has never seen before. Along the way, everyone I have spoken to has strongly advised me NOT to let that happen, especially the shrink and the elder-care lawyer. </p>

<p>I am dreading Monday (the reason for this visit is to secure a “Promissary Note” to protect half the assets of the house from going to Medicaid which seems magic…is that possible? But the elder-care lawyer will be the guide.)</p>

<p>Daughters are doing fine, and after Monday and then a appt a week from Monday, I am free to do minimal and routine things. Mother (with caregiver) gets rides from the Community Resource Center to the many MDs and the caregiver has come just in time because now she needs elbow assistance and help guiding the walker. There is still a "stress week " ahead for me, and I feel it, but things will fall into place. The daily phone calls have already stopped since the caregiver is there. </p>

<p>Learned from the admissions depts of three colleges DD2 wanted to visit/interview with that they only want to talk with incoming Seniors, not Jrs. (This is new from when DD1 applied…) At one school I asked why? and was told, that way, the student has done more, matured more, have more to say and exhibit, which seems sound advice. So next year.</p>

<p>Sorry for being so tedious and long, but I don’t see how I have a choice but to be an enabler, and all the professionals around me certainly expect me to be one. I just wanted to talk to that point.</p>

<p>LasMa, you mentioned your mother. Does she remain at home? Are your parents separated?</p>

<p>Oldmom, thinking of you on this beautiful day and your memorial for your father. Hope it went well, and looking forward to a review.</p>

3732

<p>Apples and oranges.
Enabling one to visit a possible apt that makes financial, physical and care sense is different than the psychological use meaning enabling or facilitating them to take advantage of you or enabling them to remain a danger to themselves, etc. Your choice is to help her stay home, make up every bit of difference between what she can do for herself and not. Or to not participate. (Or to considerably back off.)</p>

<p>“How can I leave a crippled, nearly blind, nearly deaf elder with digestive , heart, and blood pressure problems, fend for herself?” Then accept that you will do everything your can, in whatever time you have, set the priority that her will trumps. Take her comments, fear her outbursts, no discussion needed. </p>

<p>I’m not sure I’d just hand the lawyer the documents and then let her speak to your mother. From each and every report you mention, all the professionals think she is competent to make her own choices. They only see part of the story and they see you as filling in the blanks. To me, of course they say, sure, she is able to “make her own choices.” What do you expect? </p>

<p>I would say, Lawyer, I will not be part of this, I am unable to facilitate this and I disagree with it as a safe and wise option. your evaluation must take that into account. </p>

<p>I go through this with my mother. She wants to move to AZ, can intelligently explain why, but doesn’t have the personal strengths to </p>

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<p>BTW, expect for the folks on CC, none of the 6 or so professionals personally involved with my mother ever offered to HELP me. Her shrink of 42 years, whom she or Medicare has paid for 42 years, could have asked me, give me your mother’s phone at the nursing home and I will talk to her.I just listened to him like a student at a wise professor’s knee, but now I think, why didn’t I ask him to call her? Or the elder-care lawyer I paid $400 could have said, give me your mother’s number. After a round-table meeting with professionals at both of the nursing homes, neither of the Social Workers said to me, I will sit down with your mother privately and discuss this. I had made my concerns very clearly known to all these people and no one offered to help me or refer me to service or counselor. I mentioned above my talk with the woman who visits my mother from the county office of the aging. She said you need to spend down your assets to $14,050 to qualify for Medicaid. I asked her, how do you GET your elder to a NH? She replied, I have faced this many times and it is painful. It is up to the family. NY State only intervenes when there is a live-alone with no family or an indigent or homeless person. Family, again.</p>

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<p>LK, posts intersected in cyber space. Everything–all the emergencies-- happened so quicky, so very very quickly, and I suppose I acted with stress, emotion, half my wits about me, and as I note above. zero professional help, really, and guidance that does not seem to be thought through carefully or really deeply.</p>

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<p>If your mom is mentally competent, and chooses to stay home, that’s her choice. My MIL refused to go to Assisted Living even though she fell regularly and 24x7 caregivers ran around $120K/year. But, she had the money and she was the one taking the risks. </p>

<p>From my vantage point, everything you can do to shuffle off work to those who are/can be paid to do it makes your life better. That is my biggest regret with my MIL. I should have insisted that she pay someone local to deal with the paperwork. As you’ve seen, it is huge – and sad to say, it will not go away just because you’ve finished the initial batch. If paying a third party to take more responsibility for this, and shopping, and other things runs out her money faster – that’s her problem, not yours. I did extricate myself from the emergency coverage issue by giving her the phone number of the local agency and having her set up an account with them, though she complained bitterly about how much she was charged per hour for those aides. And if the agency couldn’t provide an aide when she needed one, that was her issue to resolve. (And, it happens. People are late, they go on vacation, they get sick,… – don’t get sucked in.)</p>

<p>If and when she chooses the reverse mortgage, let her be the one to do it. Don’t be involved, don’t do the paperwork, let it be HER problem. If she makes bad choices, she gets to live with the consequences. She’s already shown that she doesn’t care about your advice, so quit pushing a rope uphill. </p>

<p>You’ve got your own family, and your own life. Providing daily support to a mother who treats you poorly is not healthy. Those of us who’ve been there, done that have the scars. We’re just hoping you don’t get as many.</p>

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<p>Arabrab, thank you for your helpful and consoling words about another party who chose the stay-home option. I am still in my seething mood right now recognizing how little/none help I got from the professionals involved. Neither of the MDs wanted to talk to me in a fulfiling way about a LONG TIME patient who has paid them LOTS of money. When I was an English teacher, I spent hours and hours after class and weekend time on the phone with my students and my salary was nothing of course in comparison with an MD. The NHs couldn’t WAIT to get her OUT and cared not a jot what happened to her the moment she walked out the door. My only sibling–my sister–is a BS in Nursing with 30 years of outstanding experience in every capacity and could have afforded me a few phone calls AND MUCH HELP AND GUIDANCE as I reached out to her. She is greatly knowledgeable and has dealt with elders and elder options. Her husband is also a nurse. They have no children and lavish their attention on their pets. Ten more day of this (because of appointments) and then–aside from the paperwork you cite–I am done. I dwell so much in the emotional landscape I am discovering, that I have even thought, what does the caregiver think that my children have not even come over to welcome her back and say hello to her? And introduce themselves to the caregiver? It is like a vice around my mind that I can’t take off but I am determined to do so now, tomorrow, and after the upcoming meetings, one on Mon and one the following Mon. Then our relationship can be characterized more as “associates.” I am going to curl up with my new memoir and my Standard Poodle.</p>

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<p>Hi Dharma. No, my dad passed away last fall. We moved Mom and Dad into AL 4+ years ago, and Mom still lives there.</p>

<p>I wanted to speak to enabling and choice. To me, enabling means assisting someone in doing something that is detrimental to them. That’s different from assisting them to do something that is helpful to them. Of course she would need your help to move into AL, but you would be helping her toward the best outcome, not the worst. </p>

<p>As to choice – the health workers and lawyers are correct, it is your mom’s choice to stay home. But along with choice comes responsibility. It is up to her to figure out how to carry out her choice. Her choice does not obligate you to help her carry it out. If you don’t do it, then she must find someone who will. And if she can’t, then it’s no longer a choice that’s on the table. Think about it this way: What if she said, “It’s my choice to move in with Dharma for the rest of my life.” Would you say, "I don’t like it, but she wants it, so it’s up to me to oblige? Of course not. She can “choose” all she wants, but that doesn’t mean everyone around her has to hop to, in order to make her wishes come true. </p>

<p>You have the right to say NO. And if you do, she won’t end up fending for herself in her home. She’ll end up in AL, which I think you believe is the best place for her.</p>

<p>I also wanted to let you know about another option, if/when the time comes. It’s called Board and Care, and it’s Assisted Living in another form. Whereas ALs are big apartment-like complexes, B&Cs are single-family homes, which are specially outfitted. They generally house 4 to 6 residents. They provide all the services of AL – meals, help with dressing, bathing, toileting, dispensing medication, etc. There’s an aide in place at all times. The BIG advantage is cost. In my area, B&C is about 1/3 cheaper than AL. So if at some point, your mom is willing to leave the house, that’s an alternative which could stretch her dollars.</p>

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<p>As for my sister, you did not only choose not to call me. We could have discussed options and she could in her PROFESSIONAL CAPCITY which my mother respects, urged her, over the course of several phone calls–my mother had a phone in every room eveywhere she stayed and she left mesages on my sister
s answering maching to be called. My sister would have been a far more convincing advocate than I with my pathetic cost comparisons than I and could EVEN have come to NY to help with the move.</p>

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<p>Your cost comparisons are NOT pathetic! You gave gathered mounds of information, far more than we ever did. The problem with them is that they represent a reality your mom doesn’t want to acknowledge. That doesn’t make them less valid. But it DOES make your mom’s “choice” less valid.</p>

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<p>LasMa, our post overlapped. Your words defining how “choice” as enabling or not have finally made this concept clearer to me. I am recognizing how influenced I was by the words of her shrink and the elder-care lawyer, not to mention the SWs, but mostly the shrink whom I have dealt with intimately over issues for many years. He sees my mother so frequently, and knows her health and personality in all respects, so well. I wish he had guided us with more clarity and deeper thinking about what was truly best and, particularly,spoken to her himself, because she listens to him. Likewise, my sister. My sister can talk like a Military Sergeant.</p>