Parents caring for the parent support thread (Part 1)

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4201

<p>There are no questions to ask the RM guy, hard or otherwise. Stop having that conversation; you have nothing to say to that person. The reverse mortgage does not work for your mother, and no lies the RM salesman tells you will change that fact.</p>

<p>Instead, follow LasMa’s fine advice. Find a realtor who works in your neighborhood. Have them do an appraisal, and have them tell you what you need to do, once your mother is in AL, to sell the house promptly. Seems to me the easiest thing would be get your mom settled in AL, then hire someone to clear out the house and have the estate sale to sell what you and your family don’t want. There are people who specialize in that. You don’t have to do it; just hire them.</p>

4202

<p>Dharmawheel- You are on a mission and I do not want to throw further complexities at you. Yet I feel compelled to share some additional info in case it helps. Do any of the ALs in your search areas include a nursing component? This is perhaps a slightly different level of certification than many ALs have and allows for medication management, perhaps a twice weekly shower or jacuzzi, care/monitoring if the resident has the flu or needs vaporizer for example, meals in the room if they are sick, simple wound care, PT, etc. Perhaps there is even a primary care dr. on site so that there is no need to venture out for every routine issue. I ask because this really works well on the ground and your mother is “older” and complicated. Families are not on the hook to order meds, fill pill boxes and ensure the meds are taken or the scripts updated with each dr. visit. There are no unexpected surprises on the bill and the elder can receive services as needed. Things get addressed pro-actively and relatives have the input from trained staff to help them reality-test what the elder may be reporting. Much less stressful for the family and at a similar cost point to more “hotel-like” assisted living. One fixed rate for the care monthly is also good. </p>

<p>I found such a place, with a connecting nursing home and memory care unit (in a non-profit) for my parents. It was like winning the lottery, especially since their assets were finite. Because of the status of the AL with a built-in medical component, there was access to state funding for AL when assets were depleted by illness expenses and the surviving parent was not yet ready for a nursing home. The facility makes a life long commitment to elders once they are accepted to AL and helps family’s seek state funding or Medicaid when needed. All of these options may vary by state and I am not in yours, so lack specific expertise. </p>

<p>While questions may need to be asked by phone before or after a visit, it may be worth your time to ask how many have daily help from private aids, and what variables determine when an elder becomes ineligible for this level of care. Find out what type of communication you can expect as a family member and what they will be expecting from you. If you are to be called every time a script changes or your mother has an itchy eye, you could be busier than you want to be. You may not have an option with more medical care or the features I described near you, but it would be a shame to miss the most effective option as long as you are putting in all this effort. </p>

<p>If searching further is overwhelming perhaps a call to several local councils on aging would yield answers more efficiently. Geriatric care managers usually are very helpful with knowledge of local places. I conferred with one before locking in my decision to move my parents 2 1/2 hours from their home to be near me. Literally just needed my impressions confirmed before I moved them. </p>

<p>Hang in there. You and your mother are moving towards better times. </p>

4203

<p>Dearest oldmom, you keep referring to my mother’s dream of moving into my house. The idea haunts me today because I am anxious that at AL she will run out of cash and that the house hasn’t sold yet. Then there will be no where for her to go. I asked Preironic to do the math for me, or I will ask one of my two elder daughters, but I’d rather not involve them. If she has enough cash to last a reasonable amount of months, long enough for the house to sell, it would be a dream.</p>

<p>I feel more confident here by the remarks that the house, priced well, should sell soon. I did see my therapist this afternoon and she was very enthusiastic that this would be so. She had recently gone house hunting with her daughter and saw all the bargains snapped up day by day. My husband and I bumped into each other in the village this afternoon and he said something like,“We’ll say something like we’ll take this much but no lower.” I wanted to shoot him. Next, I’ll be arguing with him?? We will sell the house asap…as far as I’m concerned, to the first bidder…may he/she appear the day the house goes on the market.</p>

<p>After I posted this morning, I had second thoughts about revealing how open and detailed the shrink was with me, thinking readers would say/think he had overextended his boundaries and was not professional. I want to thank you for the nice comments about his words. The letter I wrote him was deep from my soul, and in a way, he might have needed someone to share with, too.I mean, 30 year with my mother. It was a revelatory conversation. The therapist this afternoon asked me, Did your mother say what she complained about you and your husband EXACTLY? Well…I had to say No! And I don’t want to know. </p>

<p>Reverse mortgage. I sent the rep the Forbes articles with pointed questions and asked him to respond to each point in the essay. It was a rather pushy, but not impolite, email. Well, to his credit, he wrote write right back. One thing he said that was GOOD was that according to HUD laws you cannot be made to “pay back” more than the house gets on the market, even if interest has “racked up” HUD pays it. BUT it is entirely true that the senior must be occupying the house and he told me finagling ways of making this “sort of true”; that he has clients sign at the closing, stating they will inhabit the house, then move to AL. It was kind of shocking he was so up front about it. It is fraud. </p>

<p>We will see the elder lawyer again a week from tomorrow, this time to see if she has any strategies in case my mother needs to borrow money before the house is sold. I think a home equity loan is a possibility. And I did read somewhere on the internet about something called something like a “bridge loan” for seniors.</p>

<p>I did muse a little about having the realtor come and photo/assess the house while we are at the lawyer’s (it’s a long drive) and the caregiver will be home alone. But I think that’s dishonest and not fair, but when I talk to her about the need for an appraisal and to put the house on the market asap, there will be another flare-up.</p>

<p>Old mom, thank you for offering your therapist.What a nice gesture. I don’t give mine much of a chance because I talk so much.Since this weekend will be “pivotal” I arranged to see her again next wk. For 18 years I had a therapist (who finally retired at like age 80) who was born in Chungking whose father was a Guomindang (sp?) general! They escaped to Taiwan with Chaing Kai Sheck (sp?), she went to med school there and then in NYC. Now, how many people can say they had a shrink from MAINLAND CHINA? She had her parents living with her Chinese-style so she was completely out of it about mothers. It was mostly for fun. I would bring her my girls’ Chinese school homework and she would explain it to me so I could help the girls, and we would talk about China. You know, it was therapeutic, because as my husband pointed out all the time, she was a mother figure to me.</p>

4204

<p>Dearest oldmom, you keep referring to my mother’s dream of moving into my house. The idea haunts me today because I am anxious that at AL she will run out of cash and that the house hasn’t sold yet. Then there will be no where for her to go. I asked Preironic to do the math for me, or I will ask one of my two elder daughters, but I’d rather not involve them. If she has enough cash to last a reasonable amount of months, long enough for the house to sell, it would be a dream.</p>

<p>I feel more confident here by the remarks that the house, priced well, should sell soon. I did see my therapist this afternoon and she was very enthusiastic that this would be so. She had recently gone house hunting with her daughter and saw all the bargains snapped up day by day. My husband and I bumped into each other in the village this afternoon and he said something like,“We’ll say something like we’ll take this much but no lower.” I wanted to shoot him. Next, I’ll be arguing with him?? We will sell the house asap…as far as I’m concerned, to the first bidder…may he/she appear the day the house goes on the market.</p>

<p>After I posted this morning, I had second thoughts about revealing how open and detailed the shrink was with me, thinking readers would say/think he had overextended his boundaries and was not professional. I want to thank you for the nice comments about his words. The letter I wrote him was deep from my soul, and in a way, he might have needed someone to share with, too.I mean, 30 year with my mother. It was a revelatory conversation. The therapist this afternoon asked me, Did your mother say what she complained about you and your husband EXACTLY? Well…I had to say No! And I don’t want to know. </p>

<p>Reverse mortgage. I sent the rep the Forbes articles with pointed questions and asked him to respond to each point in the essay. It was a rather pushy, but not impolite, email. Well, to his credit, he wrote write right back. One thing he said that was GOOD was that according to HUD laws you cannot be made to “pay back” more than the house gets on the market, even if interest has “racked up” HUD pays it. BUT it is entirely true that the senior must be occupying the house and he told me finagling ways of making this “sort of true”; that he has clients sign at the closing, stating they will inhabit the house, then move to AL. It was kind of shocking he was so up front about it. It is fraud. </p>

<p>We will see the elder lawyer again a week from tomorrow, this time to see if she has any strategies in case my mother needs to borrow money before the house is sold. I think a home equity loan is a possibility. And I did read somewhere on the internet about something called something like a “bridge loan” for seniors.</p>

<p>I did muse a little about having the realtor come and photo/assess the house while we are at the lawyer’s (it’s a long drive) and the caregiver will be home alone. But I think that’s dishonest and not fair, but when I talk to her about the need for an appraisal and to put the house on the market asap, there will be another flare-up.</p>

<p>Old mom, thank you for offering your therapist.What a nice gesture. I don’t give mine much of a chance because I talk so much.Since this weekend will be “pivotal” I arranged to see her again next wk. For 18 years I had a therapist (who finally retired at like age 80) who was born in Chungking whose father was a Guomindang (sp?) general! They escaped to Taiwan with Chaing Kai Sheck (sp?), she went to med school there and then in NYC. Now, how many people can say they had a shrink from MAINLAND CHINA? She had her parents living with her Chinese-style so she was completely out of it about mothers. It was mostly for fun. I would bring her my girls’ Chinese school homework and she would explain it to me so I could help the girls, and we would talk about China. You know, it was therapeutic, because as my husband pointed out all the time, she was a mother figure to me.</p>

4205

<p>Dharma, if your mother’s house hasn’t sold, she can get a home equity loan, which would be much cheaper than a reverse mortgage. But is there any reason why the house wouldn’t sell? Are you in an exceptionally slow real estate market? What do local real estate agents say? </p>

4206

<p>Gawd. How do you get from so many reassuring you, to haunted it won’t sell? Set the right price. And quit agonizing yourself. You haven’t even talked to an agent and you’re sure Mom will run out of money and you’ll be desperate and cornered. Make this about problem solving. </p>

<p>It may also help if you read all the current posts before answering just one or two. It’s hard to follow sometimes. But it seems she’d have 40k on the day of the move? If so, after SS (minus an allowance,) we’re looking at 8 additional months (if costs = 6k.) Period. If it costs 7k, she’d have 7 months. You could have that house sold well before that.</p>

<p>Dharma, I’m like you in that I like to be assured by the details and even minute details, the What Ifs. But at a certain point, action is far more important than, eg, figuring if you save $100 or $300 by supplying the meds.</p>

4207

<p>Travelnut, I wish I could answer each point you raised so excellently in detail. I wish I had your talent. We saw two facilities in Danbury. I had printed out pages and pages from the web about questions to ask about all dimensions at the facility and I did. One was clearly more satisfactory with RNs round the clock (the other only had aids at night and a nurse “on call”), MD in-house, number of aides, fewer “add ons” (I mean, an add on for a shower???) and the Danbury hospital literally across the street. They would also drive her to her MDs in NY; the other place would not. I wish I could have gone into the depth you defined, but it is beyond my scope. </p>

<p>But what I will tell you now will be disappointing but probably not a surprise. My mother (if she sticks to her promise) has to make a choice between three (the third is nearby and we will see Friday). The points you raise are the key, important points. But the choice will be the one my mother “likes best” and it will probably be the one nearby, only 10 minutes away. If the first facility in Danbury is superior in a number of points, I will have no ability to sway her judgment. I just hope she agrees to one. </p>

<p>In respect to the extent of her unreality, an example: at one facility, she liked a one bedroom over a studio (much more costly) because as she said she could use the extra room as her “art studio.” She has written her own eulogy and had me read it and it is mostly about her career as “an artist.” Husband, children, and grandchildren come into the narrative much later. In my “manipulated days” I would buy her paints and canvases from Michaels she would never use. With all the sweets she would buy, the clothes from catalogues, and art supplies, I marveled how she balanced her checkbook, living only on Medicare. She sits in front of her easel and falls asleep. She can hardly hold a brush.</p>

4208

<p>And you could drop the price quite a bit (if necessary) before it would cost close to the fees involved in a reverse mortgage. (Not that you should have to do that.) When you talk to the realtor, you can explain it all, that the house needs to sell fast.</p>

4209

<p>“Mom, the one BR is not available.” Whatever it takes. </p>

<p>You were previously guessing the house could be worth 275. If so, in the greater NYC area, I can’t imagine it would take long to sell at a good price. Let the RE person advise you. </p>

4210

<p>Cardinal Fang - glad to know a home equity loan is possible. I thought it was.</p>

<p>LF, I just have hangover stress.And apprehension about the upcoming weeks and moving. It has been unrelenting since mid-June. I do have nice afternoons reading on the couch curled up with my amazing Standard Poodle. Friday was an explosive day and I have to drive my mother (to the shrink!) tomorrow morning.</p>

<p>The house is pristine inside and out, on a beautiful acre corner lot, steps from the town park with a pure spring-fed lake of many acres. Surely it will be a very desirable property. Surely I should get a grip and calm down!</p>

4211

<p>Dharmawheel, talk to a realtor. You don’t have to sign a contract, but surely with a house in great shape in such a wonderful setting, you will be reassured.</p>

4212

<p>Dharma, maybe ask one of your kids to take photos of the inside of Grandma’s house while you are out with her? Show your kid a typical real estate internet ad’s photos of a similar house so she’ll have the idea. Then you can take those photos to the realtor to show him/her what the house looks like on the inside.</p>

4213

<p>Yup, Dharma.<br>
Good, no toxic waste sites around the corner. No Niagara Falls inside every time it rains. Get an agent in over the weekend or Monday and learn what the real story is. </p>

<p>And practice what you will kindly and reassuringly say, when she finds her next complaint. </p>

<p>Let the agent come to you. They do. They want the listing and the commission. Let them be the experts. Simplify. They would still need to come, even if you take them photos, because they need to see firsthand what they are dealing with- some old leak stain, a crack in a wall, etc. Save time by getting them there to the house first. Enough with the DIY. Save that energy for some other task.</p>

4214

<p>Dharma, honestly, a realtor is the very very very best person for you to talk to. He/she can tell you within a pretty narrow range how much the house would sell for, and how long it would take. We simply can’t tell you that ( although if it’s priced right, it WILL sell quickly). </p>

<p>Instead of driving yourself crazy with worry and questions, and hoping that we can somehow put them to rest, PLEASE get a realtor. He/she will be able to answer these questions and a hundred more. I think you will feel much much better when you do. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by waiting, and i think it will make your path a lot clearer.</p>

4215

<p>DW- Fair enough! Then I would view the financials and what criteria is used to determine when care beyond assisted living is required, as well as any nursing home connections, as the key questions to answer. Not worth moving her to somewhere that she is about to “age” out of because of her health status. Different places may have different barometers for this. </p>

<p>You and her Dr. may be able to “help” your mother decide on the best choice, while having her think it is her idea or that it meets her irrational criteria. I also wouldn’t worry too much about involving your mother in every single aspect of every single business decision from the ground up. This is not a question of fairness in my eyes, but rather breaking a complicated world into manageable pieces for her. Narrow the fields, do your research, avoid overwhelming her and then walk her through the key elements final procedure in a simple fashion. If she could process and orchestrate the sale of her house effectively, you would not be in this situation. Avoid lots of ambiguities. At my father’s memory care unit, I learned the term “therapeutic fiblet”. No ill will involved, just keeping the challenged elder from worry and confusion by being reassuring that all is well, everything is taken care of, etc. in response to questions that they can’t fully process. It is a kindness if the motivation is true and the capacity diminished. </p>

<p>Best with it all. </p>

4216

<p>LasMa, tomorrow morning I will ask my mother if will admit a realtor into the house for photos and an assessment this weekend. I don’t think I can arrange this without her permission. Choice of AL, move-in, sale of house and contents.</p>

<p>PS travelnut, none of these places are connected to nursing homes. She would have to move facilities.</p>

4217

<p>I’m not sure this is the best strategy. If you have power of attorney, I’m not sure why you need her permission for every little step you take. She’s already agreed to AL, so I’m not sure why you need her PERMISSION to have a realtor assess the house. After the assessment is done, she may need to sign a contract with realtor, but continuing to ask her permission to hire a realtor is just prolonging her agonizing about things that are beyond her control. If she’s moving to AL, by necessity, it will require a realtor assessment and sale of her current home. I’d suggest the nice aide take her out when the realtor is going to be present, maybe a nice meal, manicure, pedicure and/or lunch (depending on mom’s endurance). Give the realtor a time limit, so mom doesn’t overtire herself in the outing, and you can do the rest at the realtor’s office.</p>

<p>When the realtor has comparables, nice photos, and is ready to list, THEN you can show mom how nice the photos are and how you are sure that the money from the sale will allow mom to live very comfortably at nice AL. If you’re not satisfied with first realtor, you can have a 2nd one come as well, but I’d ask folks in the areas who are happy with their realtors who they recommend (or eldercare attorney’s office–just call them).</p>

4218

<p>Dharma, if the house sells for $275,000, the listing agent will make $8250. I promise you, realtors will be happy to talk to you about listing the house. They want the money! Just follow HImom’s advice, have the nice aide take her out for an pleasant outing, and have the agent give you a quote.</p>

<p>In point of fact, a competent agent can give you a ballpark estimate of the price and how long the house will take to sell without even setting foot in the house. It’s their job. The agents who sell in the neighborhood know the neighborhood. They’re going to say something like, Oh, a three bedroom two bath house on Locust Street? That should go for about $300K, drop the price to $270K and it’ll sell in a weekend. Something like that. It’s their job to know.</p>

4219

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</p>

<p>This is correct. No need to agonize. As the rational and reasonable person you have the moral responsibility as well as the legal right. </p>

4220

<p>Sounds good, Dharma. Although you may want to <em>tell</em> her rather than asking her. If you ask she might very well say no. Then what?</p>