<p>My son wants to be a professor (Art History). After doing a LOT of research it looks as though they are graduating about 200 PhD's per year & there are NOT enough jobs for these graduating students. </p>
<p>At what point do you decide that grad school may be a bad deal? He will probably have to pay for his masters which would be pretty expensive (maybe 50,000 in loans or worse) & then hopefully he would be mostly funded for his PhD. </p>
<p>Any thoughts - anyone else going through this decision process? TIA</p>
<p>After having a discussion with your son about realistic expectations and consequences of taking on long-term debt, I recommend stepping back. No matter what we parents think is best, at a certain point they must take responsibility (and credit) and make their own choices.</p>
<p>Mom2
My D is now in her 4th year of a PhD in Musicology.Same stats are quoted about amount of grads per year vs jobs. Remember that not everyone who begins a program finishes, in fact , the attrition rate in Humanities PhD's are about 50%.Also, her experience is that "life gets in the way" for some candidates/grads.They follow spouses,take different kinds of jobs,etc.There are some who are deemed not capable of proceeding to the PhD and are graduated with the Masters after two years,but those two years were with assistanceship aid(she has seen this happen to 2 people so far since she's there).
Everyone in D's program gets funded. Nobody self pays.They take classes, and act as TA's starting in the 2nd year(1 class per semester).
Why is your son looking at a Masters, not a PhD program if his ultimate goal is a faculty position? I'm assuming Art History works in a similar vein to Musicology..which is Music History.Are there direct admit PhD programs?
Your Son should look more intensly for a program that provides fellowships/assistanceships and question each grad dept about their success rate in placing their newly minted PhD's.He needs to find the combination of faculty whose interests mirror his own,successful placements and funding availability.</p>
<p>Thanks, of course I would never tell him what to do! It is definately his choice. As far as direct admit PhD programs, there are some but most require a Masters before you get your PhD. He did apply for a Masters with the intent of pursuing his PhD (but you still have to get the Masters at the uni & then still apply for the PhD program). There are so many different areas of specialization in the Art History world that researching where to apply is almost a full time job. You have to check each professor out to see what they are interested in & go from there so it is not so simple. </p>
<p>Mom2,
As with Cathymee, my first question was why Masters and not PhD? Tenure track Asst Profs need to have doctorates in hand...otherwise, they are just appointed Actg...and usually only for a yr or 2 at best.</p>
<p>Having gone through this recently with D1, there are other expenses to consider. Location and the amount of support the student will be receiving from the grad program. And, it is different from one college to another. D1 is TA-ing her first yr...and is expecting to do the same in yr #2. It is a tiresome job for minimal pay. Yes, tuition is covered, as well as health insurance, but she definitely earns her stipend teaching. D1 is in Boston, so the cost of living is above average. Naturally, relocating her to the east coast into an apartment was an added expense...especially when first and last months rent are required. So far, only 1 student has dropped out of her program.</p>
<p>Luckily, she is in the field of chemistry. She has yet to develop her research thesis but hopefully that will come to pass and she will apply for NSF funding to increase her annual stipend. Good luck to your son...</p>
<p>Be careful of direct admit Ph.D. programs. All I'm aware of require the same amount of course work as if you had done the masters, but you don't have the master's degree. For example, if it requires 30 hours for a Master's and 30 for a Ph.D. with a Master's, the direct admit will require 60 hours.</p>
<p>My kids went directly from undergrad to fully funded PhD programs. We would not have supported the idea of an MA program. We don’t think it is the end of the world if they don’t find employment in the field; they aren’t accruing debt and their universities are paying them to study what they love while the economy gets worse and worse. One caution and others will have more insight: I am hearing of serious cuts in # accepted to PhD programs for next year because of budget problems.</p>
<p>In most fields in the humanities, my impression is that one is MUCH more likely to get a job if one is in one of the top 5 or 10 programs. It is not, IMHO, worth it to attend a significantly lesser program if one's intention is to be a professor in the discipline.</p>
<p>Secondly, it is wise to consider what kinds of jobs are available in peripherally associated fields and make an attempt to acquire some kind of experience and/or credential in those that are appealing. (For example, magazine writing on the subject, opportunities with arts-related non-profits, etc, etc.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
One caution and others will have more insight: I am hearing of serious cuts in # accepted to PhD programs for next year because of budget problems.
[/quote]
Sadly, yes. In my field, at least, several departments are only releasing tentative acceptances that hinge on their pending budgets.</p>
<p>
<p>At what point do you decide that grad school may be a bad deal?
That's an interesting question, and it's been a rather thorny one for academics. Many professors feel very strongly about producing PhDs with poor job prospects and are against admitting more students than can reasonably get jobs. Others feel that it is up to the students to decide, as long as they are aware of the bleak job market. The late Klaus Baer at Chicago took it upon himself to pull every first year graduate student aside to warn them about the lack of jobs in the field and to quit now.</p>
<p>I see no problem with it. You are essentially getting paid to study what you love for several years, so why not go for it? At the very least you won't end up worse than where you started. If he's also willing to look outside of academia into fields like cultural resource management (CRM), he may have many options. I do not approve of the art market, but it is a big draw for many art historians.</p>
<p>alh's point about the job prospects from top schools was a good one. At Yale, 72% of PhD graduates had a teaching position within five years, and another 26% were employed outside of academia. </p>
<p>"'my impression is that one is MUCH more likely to get a job if one is in one of the top 5 or 10 programs. It is not, IMHO, worth it to attend a significantly lesser program if one's intention is to be a professor in the discipline.'
Is this "impression" also valid for those planning on attaining phd's in the sciences? At this point [Jr in college] Son is planning on getting his PHD in Geophysics. He is at USC, due to their strong Seismology program [ that is his area of interest] as well as the great scholarship he received, but he recently asked me where the "best" pHD programs are in geophysics. Is there as strong a correlation between the "prestige" of the university and success in attaining employment for Phd's in the sciences?</p>
<p>Menloparkmom,
My impression is that the prestige and reputation of the program itself (and its faculty) should be taken into consideration when applying. Faculty mentoring is crucial to the success of any grad student.</p>
<p>Is there as strong a correlation between the "prestige" of the university and success in attaining employment for Phd's in the sciences?</p>
<p>Not exactly. The correlation is between the strength of the department (not the university as a whole) and placement of PhDs. Anyone interested in a PhD program should do the necessary research to find the top departments in that field. They are not always at the most prestigious universities. The top departments will have the best placement records, with most of their graduates getting tenure-track positions. Even within departments, there are usually a handful of faculty members who have much better track records than others of placing their advisees. Especially in the humanities, where there are very few positions open in any given year, it is critically important to pick your program and dissertation advisor carefully. Far too many students go blindly into PhD programs without a realistic sense of the competitiveness of the job market or how they stack up in that market.</p>
<p>"The top departments will have the best placement records, with most of their graduates getting tenure-track positions. Even within departments, there are usually a handful of faculty members who have much better track records than others of placing their advisees."
So how exactly does one find this type of information?I want to be able to pass this on to my S, but it would be helpful to others as well.</p>
<p>Menoparkmom: my own very unprofessional take on this, based on what I observed as my kids and their friends thought about grad school is that your son should be getting this advice from his professors in his area of interest at his undergrad institution. They will be the ones who write his letters of recommendation and will have the most influence on where he is accepted --jmho. Also, he will know from his reading in his fields’ journals where the sort of work is going on in which he would like to be involved.</p>
<p>The place to start is with the professors at his current college, especially those who regularly advise students interested in grad school in that discipline. If admissions in his field are competitive, the single most important factor in getting into a solid PhD program (aside from having adequate grades and GRE scores) is a stellar letter of recommendation from a faculty member known to the grad program. Graduate admissions committees sifting through the applications want to see something like this "I've sent 15 students to top 20 programs in the past 20 years, and this applicant ranks among the top 5." Obviously, not every applicant can get a letter like that, but it's very important to find an advisor who really understands the graduate admissions process and can help your student get into an appropriate program.
So your student should ask around his current department -- how many grad school placements do they make, and to which programs? Which department members regularly work with students considering grad school? Which grad programs are top-ranked in the discipline? How many students coming from those programs end up with tenure-track academic positions?<br>
In addition to asking around his current department, there are a number of websites and fora just like this one for every conceivable discipline. If his current department has a grad program, those students will be able to point him to some of the Internet sources. There is a ton of information out there (some more reliable than others).</p>
<p>Here's one site to start with. TestMagic</a> Forums
This forum seems to attract a lot of Asian students, especially those interested in the fields such as economics and business. But it's a good starting place for getting a sense of the kind of information available to students considering grad school.</p>