Parents of the HS Class of 2021 (Part 1)

Parents Forum Class of 20xx Community
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@nichols51 I definitely agree with everything in your post! D doesn’t use her calculator too too much but I’m a math tutor and I see kids reaching for their calculator way too often! And, for some kids including our D, it’s possible that learning algebra in seventh grade is just too soon. I think she’s finally ok with most algebra and trig concepts but it just takes her more time than for some other kids. With these tests, kids need to understand the math and do it FAST. She can get a 35 on ACT math if she has 5-6 extra minutes but can’t seem to speed up and hit anywhere close to that.

@inthegarden a tip from a highly regarded tutor who I know - if you have your D try an ACT math, make her do the test in just the 60 minutes allowed and grade it from there. I made the mistake of letting D take her initial ACT test here at home with a little more time thinking, if she could get the questions correct, then she would just practice speeding up and she’s studied so much and it’s not happening. The tutor told me that the ACT is all about time. Obviously, it doesn’t matter at all that D can get a high score with more time. She doesn’t get that time during the test and learning to speed up is very hard. Kids can either move that fast or not.

And now D is getting even more frustrated because a few friends just now got accommodations. I know these kids are legit but didn’t have IEPs until now. They’ve always had their processing issues but their parents decided they could do without the IEP and their grades have been good. But, with the ACT and SAT, they need more time so just now got an official diagnosis so they can get extra time. D is like “I just need a few more minutes!!” I told her to be thankful she doesn’t have any real problems like her friends. She just has to figure it out. Lots of kids without IEPs could use more time but that’s not the deal.

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Thanks so much, @nichols51, @homerdog, I’m really benefitting from your experience!

Whenever D’s in a more rested state of mind in the next weeks (but before Christmas, I hope!) I’ll have her try just the Math sction of the ACT. Hard to tell what the outcome will be, as she has never been a “slow-to-finish” student (that was definately ME…I could have used accomodationsx2) but I have heard it goes really fast. If that goes well, maybe I’d have her do the science/verbal sections the next day. If she does like it, I I don’t think I’d have her switch entirely without doing a full, timed practice test another day of the whole test. Unless there’s a clear sense that the ACT is better for her I don’t think I’d have her proceed with it since she has done two PSATs and one SAT (as well as a month of KHAN) and surely the familiarity helps. And doing full test prep for both tests would send her over the edge I’m afraid ;p

In D’s school the “accelerated” group that she’s in is only one year ahead (doing pre-calc/trig now). Only one boy moved ahead of that by taking Geometry in summer school one year…and he’'s a sparky kid who really enjoys math for fun (but has a lower GPA because he only applies himself consistently in the classes her likes). In my daughter’s case, she probably would have absorbed math better at a slower pace but overall I’m not sorry for her placement as the group of students she’s with are her best friends and very supportive overall. She’s kind of a shy kid so that’s important. She was eligible to do MathCounts after school in middle school but didn’t (and that might have helped) because, at the time she had a heavy ballet schedule that didn’t allow it. All of her friends find math/science easier than English/history/FL…and so she gets a little self-esteem boost by often setting the curve in her AP History classes. There are some very bright students but I’d say that probably no one in her grade is truly gifted. The one boy we know who is (a grade higher) got a scholarship to a boarding school by 10th grade).

@nichols51, I think you’re right about the acceleration today…I went to a pretty big and “cuttinge edge” high school (for the time and place) and I don’t recall anyone taking calc. I’m pretty sure the advanced students were taking trig senior year. Honestly, I don’t remember anything about APs being offered to anyone, either. On the other hand, I do think that the rest of the world introduces advanced math earlier. Maybe that’s because they sort students early-on (by middle school) into those destined for trade schools and those destined for University. Maybe efficient for society but sad for late-blooming individuals. Canada offers a 13th year of school before college. I wouldn’t mind having my D around for another year!

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Anyone know whether a TASP invitation is essentially spam?

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@inthegarden I agree with @homerdog She might want to try the ACT. The SAT hides the math problems in a lot of verbiage. The ACT math problems are more straightforward, but you have to move faster. My kids both were in an accelerated math track but one preferred the ACT and the other the SAT so I think it’s worthwhile to explore both.

@evergreen5 There has been a lot of debate on CC about what level PSAT score generates a TASP invite or if it’s predictive of NMSF. Based on my limited experience with students I know, I’d guess commended or above. You don’t need an invite to apply but I would imagine that only students at competitive high schools would know that the program exists.

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My D20 received a TASP invite but was not NMSF last year. We do live in a high cut off state though.

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Hello all! Late to the party here. My d19 just completed her first semester at tOSU and now I can pivot to d21. D19 is taking the ACT for the second time today. We have not done much with regards to college viisits/planning but will start the search once 2020 kicks off.

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Good to check in on everyone! Unfortunately, lots of aging parent issues here, so time online has been down. DD needs help with math. Discrepancy between verbal and math is large (PSAT:730/560). She’s 3rd in her class in a magnet HS, currently in DE Pre Calc/Trig and excelling in AP Chem and AP Physics- so she’s capable. I think issue relates to the fact her Alg 2 teacher had a medical emergency and was out 6 mos with a chair-warmer long term sub. She obviously doesn’t have the math knowledge. She took the SAT in Nov without prep and got 720/570. She will take the March test next. She has started Khan and I bought the PWIN book. Should I look for a tutor as well? We really need to bring math in line with verbal. I plan on having her take a sample ACT over winter break and see how that goes. Suggestions?

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@Rue4, your D’s verbal/math discrepancy is similar my D23’s (you actually have even a bit bigger of a divide as your D’s total PSAT score is the same as my D’s but with a differential of 170 vs my D’s 110). I’d guess that that Algebra 2 issue you mentioned has something to do with it (similar for my D but in regards to Algebra 1). Those fundamentals are critical. Did you get the QAS for the PSAT so that she can see which ones she got wrong ? Perhaps that would help to identify specific targeted areas where she can focus to gain points. In our case it’s also a math speed issue (as discussed in this thread above, so maybe some of that discussion would apply in your case)? I think whether to hire a tutor depends on a lot on the tutor (do you have a recommendation for a particularly good one)? and also on your D and how she’d respond to tutoring vs. how self-directed she is to work through the PWN book. My D is much more self directed when it comes to her favorite things and strengths…that’s probably not all that unusual. ?

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Thanks! I do have the QAS and I paid for that info from the Nov SAT as well. She has been looking it over. She does not have timing issues, and is typically very self motivated. I think she’s pretty shocked at how much she wasn’t taught. The results were pretty eye opening. Same issue for two good friends who were in the same class. I have started to look for recs for local tutors, or even one online- nothing solid yet. I figure we have the next 2.5 months for solid prep. I want to make the best use of that time, and am not sure what exactly that should look like.

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@Rue4 we’re in the same boat (700/570) from August. She retook it last weekend so waiting on those scores before registering for March. She did think the math was easier this time, the English harder. I just want a good superscore!
The May date is too close to AP tests, so if she needs another shot it will be March and we’ll get a math tutor. It was too hard trying to fit in prep with her school and other commitments. The tutor will force her to make the time.

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Any of your kids take the ACT today? The word on that “other” website and with D’s friends is that math and science were way hard. D thinks she did ok but really has no idea. Thought last test was easy and didn’t do well so she doesn’t think her after-test analysis is very good. Just wait and see now. We’ve decided that, if math and English don’t make it to at least 30, she’s switching to the SAT.

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@Rue4 if your daughter is comfortable on timing and with the way the SAT math questions are worded, which it sounds like she is, then she may want to focus on the underlying math concepts for the next stage of her prep before moving back to SAT problems and practice tests (as it sounds as if she has significant gaps in her Algebra 2 knowledge - that probably needs to be addressed first). In that case, while you’re waiting to line up a good tutor, she could go to the Khan Academy Algebra 2 course and take their end of course challenge which, I believe, is meant to pinpoint the areas she needs to review (or, possibly in her case, learn for the first time).

Then she could use either Khan (or another resource) to specifically learn those particular gaps in concepts before doing more SAT specific prep. (meaning use the Khan Algebra 2 material for that…not the Khan SAT prep). I personally don’t like the long winded droning video explanations on Khan, but everyone is different, and Khan is free, immediately accessible, and linked to her diagnostic results, so it’s a decent place to start, I think.

Another alternative - I know several people near me who like the Mathnasium program for general math tutoring…it starts with a diagnostic test and then future work is based on those results - I believe you sign up for a month and can go as much as you want during that month, so it’s good for a crash course kind of timeline which you have. No personal experience, but you may want to see if there’s one in your area.

And if she’s struggling to decide what to do based on the QAS results, the Khan Academy work she’s started is good while you wait for the right tutor because Khan is (or can be) linked to her test results so they can give her small problem sets that are focused on the exact types of problems that she missed. The key is to read through the explanations to those problems as she does them. I haven’t used the PWN book specifically, but I hear good things about it - depending on how it’s organized, she may be able to pick off certain sections to do based on the gaps identified through QAS and through the Khan Algebra 2 course challenge. Good luck!

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@Rue4 Jumping in from the 2022 forum. For the assistance in math, we like Thinkwell videos with Edward Burger. It’s not free, but not too expensive at around $120. At times, they have promotions and discounts.
Search for the videos on the Youtube to be sure your D likes the format. My kids prefer his friendliness and humor to those of Khan Academy.

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Yes, agree with @SilverGrass on preferring Edward Burger to Khan for video explanations. We also like the ones on AoPS (believe they have some for free if you just register for their Alcumus program)?

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Thank you @SilverGrass and @nichols51 . Much appreciated info!

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I’ve got a couple of questions for those of you who have been through this before:

How closely can you predict future ACT scores after doing/scoring practice ACT tests? I mean, do students generally tend to do better on their home practice tests than the real thing (even when timing strictly?)

Also, does anyone know how “real” the practice tests are in the book"The Official ACT Prep Guide(from the makers of the ACT)? It says on the cover, “the only guide to include real ACT tests.” I think this might be the book referred to as “The Red Book.” I’m a little suspicious…how much do these practice tests adhere to the real tests? My daughter asked our GC for actual copies old of SAT and ACT tests (and was told the school has none, and to look for online practice tests).

D will likely have no school tomorrow because of weather. If she’s home she plans to take a timed practice ACT test to see how she likes it compared to the SAT. We planned to just focus on the math section, since that is what she did so poorly on in her PSATs.

But tonight she said she’d like to go ahead and try the ER sctions tonight even though she felt too tired to tackle the math/science sections. Honestly, I was pleasantly shocked because I usually have to push her a bit on any work apart from homework. So, at 7:30 PM she did ER cold (no prep or experience with ACT at all). Did her best, but a sort of “casual” best if that makes sense (knowing it was just a first practice test).

She finished the English section with fifteen minutes to spare and checked answers for about six minutes (said she was too tired to be extra-thorough). Then finished the reading with eight minutes to spare. Came up with a 29 english score and a 36 in reading! This is consistent with the analysis of the PSAT (perfect reading and all missed questions were in grammar/usage/writing also). But overall, the ACT practice score converts higher than her PSAT verbal score, and (if she’s recalling correctly) she finished the ACT with more time to spare. Keeping my fingers crossed for Math results tomorrow as compared to the PSAT. With SAT results coming Friday, I hope it will become very clear which test to focus on.

So, am I getting excited prematurely? Please let me know ASAP if these practice scores aren’t to be trusted. Guess I’m a little cynical and hopeful in equal measure. I wouldn’t put it past the ACT creators to throw students off with too-easy practice tests :frowning: Let me know ASAP what to think because I don’t want to harbor false hopes!!

At any rate, this is suddenly becoming real for D. She learned Friday about an old friend getting into Duke ED and then started working herself into a frenzy watching ED results of total strangers on social media, bemoaning her low PSAT scores and practically whimpering “What if I don’t get into any college!!!” That’s worrying… I don’t want her comparing herself and getting anxious/depressed (I reminded her she doesn’t want to go to Duke anyway, lol!) but on the other hand the awareness is kicking her into higher gear so that I don’t have to. On Saturday she was calmer and I could see the wheels turning in her head…she came to me and said “I’ve been thinking, and what I mostly missed on verbal is just grammar-type stuff, and grammar is just rules to memorize, and the math that I missed is all stuff I DID make 'A’s in in school once , so I SHOULD be able to learn it again” … (and I’m thinking "YES! YES! YES!)

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@inthegarden - my daughter’s composite exactly matched what she had been doing in practice at home (in the two weeks prior) on the real test. On one home test she scored one point higher, but otherwise, the last few tests were the same composite. She did all the Red book tests and a couple of other actual ACTs that had been released.

I did time her and held her to only the allocated break times, etc.

That said, her individual section scores were not exactly in line with her home tests. On the real test, she scored very well on the first two sections (English and Math) and the last two sections were lower than she had been scoring at home (Reading and Science). Yet, the composite was the same.

My guess is that she was more relaxed at home throughout the test and that she was hyper focused on exam day and just didn’t have the mental stamina after the break to continue at the same level.

But, the composite was where she wanted to be and as far as I know, she’s done with standardized tests (except for the SAT required by her school in April)

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As I think you all know, D scored about four points lower in her composite than expected. Only reading was the same score as practice. She also used the Red Book tests and then actual ACT tests we took off of that other website all the kids use.

She really can’t seem to explain what happened. I do think those are the right tests to use.

@inthegarden I can’t believe how much time your D had left! She did the whole reading section in 25 minutes??!!

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@3kids2dogs, thank you! That’s extremely helpful. I know every student and every situation is different, but it does tell me that the “Red Book” tests probably aren’t terribly off, either. How wonderful for your daughter (and you!) that she has finished testing altogether (since her SAT won’t matter at all). Congratulations!

I’m sure taking all the tests together with little break will make it harder to keep the scores up. On the other hand, my D was taking these tests at night when she wasn’t well-rested so I’m cautiously optimistic. I’ll certainly have her do some complete practice tests with only the allowed break time, too. But since ACT has made the change to allow students to take single sections in repeat tests, they can avoid that marathon fatigue in the sections they find most challenging. If D gets a high-enough verbal score early on she can retest in only math, or math/science without lowering the score out of weariness. Keeping my fingers crossed that she’ll be able to cope with the speed of the math section while finding the wording straightforward. I guess we’ll have an idea of that tomorrow.

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@homerdog, yes! She has always been a natural speed-reader with good comprehension along with it. She has read faster than me since she was in fourth grade or so, though I have always considered myself to be a strong reader!

We would go to the library every few days (sometimes twice per week) when she was a child and she’d check out more chapter books at a time than I could hold in my arms and backpack and yet she’d be out of books to read in a few days. (We didn’t have TV at the time for her to watch). These weren’t just easy books either…She was reading Jane Austen (along with the more usual things) in fifth grade. I’d say to her, "you can’t possibly have read all these books…did you just skim them? I’d encourage her to slow down and savor the words and ideas. I’d ask her questions about them, and she’d answer with enough vivid detail that I knew she really had read them. Of course, she didn’t know enough about the cultural/historical context to understand everything about Pride and Predjudice and such books but she did absorb enough to find them entertaining. Unfortunately, her writing ability (and desire to write) always lagged behind the reading skill. Not enough to be a problem, but she never stood out in writing. I think she found reading so effortless that writing felt terribly laborious to her. So, she can take in information like a sponge, but expressing it back out is harder (but she’s getting there).

Her voracious appetitite for reading is why I’m so worried about the possibility of the relatively inferior math scores keeping her out of the colleges where she could shine and be challenged in the humanities/ social sciences. I’d hate for her to be surrounded by students who are less enthused about reading, because of a lower composite score keeping her out of life-of-the-mind schools (especially since she may not major in anything requiring much advanced math in college anyway).