@VikkiG5 When you say AP Sem, do you mean AP Lit and Comp? There are only two AP English courses. AP Lit and AP Lang (English Language). At our high school, the honors kids would take English 1 honors, English 2 honors, then AP Lang and then either AP Lit or this honors writing seminar course that they have to compete to get into and only has 16 kids. It’s run like a college writing seminar. S19 went that route. Didn’t take AP Lit.
As for course load, first off, I would ask around. Have your D ask current juniors if taking all of those APs or if it’s just too hard to get all As in all of them. AP classes move more quickly because kids have to be ready for the test. That being said, I see a lot of kids on CC who get As and then don’t get 4s or 5s on the test so the class is dumbed down and grades inflated. I really think kids who get an A should at least be getting a 4 on the exam. So, ask around. See if kids are able to handle AP Lang as well as all of the rest of the classes on your D’s list. Each school is different when it comes to work load and grades. Ask the GC too.
At our school, junior year is the year kids really start loading up on APs and it’s brutal. Many of S19’s friends took BC Calc, Physics 1, AP Lang, APUSH, and then foreign language (with AP foreign lang waiting until senior year). That was rough. Many kids ended up with at least one B. S19 had heard that was a rough go and decided to take Earth Science Honors instead of AP Physics 1 and that worked better. I will say, though, that it was still an incredibly difficult year when it came to homework. APUSH is a bear at most schools. Tons of reading. He was able to pull out all As but I think AP Physics would have pushed him into the territory where he would have ended up with a B. He’s taking AP Physics 1 this year and flying through. At our school, at 80% is an A in that class and, still, only 1/2 of the class gets an A. It’s truly run like a college class with many tests having a mean around 65%. Colleges still got to see that he took the class and had his first semester A since he only applied RD to schools.
I have heard and read on some blogs that AOs expect to see AP Lang and APUSH for top schools even for the math and science kids out there. T20 schools want all subjects to top out at an AP class.
I don’t think “dropping down” to honors English is a big deal as long as she takes AP Lang next year. One reports their senior schedule on the applications. I’m sure our GC thought that taking Earth Science instead of AP Physics was a weird choice but we know two other kids that chose that path. One is going to Cornell and the other to Wash U. It obviously didn’t matter.
The trick is to always challenge without overwhelming the kids but each school is different so the best answer to your question will be found at your school. But be sure that these are small decisions and won’t sway an AO one way or the other. Apps have lots of pieces and most schools now are holistic.
One thing we’ve been discussing on our 2019 thread is how your student’s school matters in admissions. If your school has a relationship with a college and sends kids there regularly. Some high schools seem to do well with certain colleges and not with others. Our top 10% of kids have a decent shot at places like Vanderbilt, Chicago, Cornell, Brown, Duke, Wash U, ND and some others. But no one gets into other Ivies unless they are a recruited athlete or legacy. It’s just the deal. Our GCs have no connections there. Another public school ten miles from us gets more kids into Ivies but they are almost all URM. So, set your sights accordingly and be realistic.
@homerdog, An aside about APUSH. D21 has a ton on her plate already, so we opted for Am Hist Honors instead of APUSH this year. She will do AP Govt and AP Euro History before graduating though, so I trust that shows enough rigor for the social sciences. I didn’t see the point in forcing her to take a 5th AP course in 10th grade (and the 4 APs she is taking now are the next logical choices in her subject areas given her progress in those subjects to date). So I wouldn’t think a STEM kid HAS to take APUSH as long as there is significant rigor/APs in other social science courses.
@JanieWalker Honestly, her rigor is there at this point no matter what your decision is. AO’s glance at the transcript and will look at hers and say “yep, tons of rigor”. Don’t let the GC push her around. Do what’s best for her. It’s not going to change her decisions. S19 had six Bs and is still doing well in admissions. Like I keep saying, it’s the whole package.
@homerdog My teens are homeschooled so I am her GC. ? She takes her AP courses through reputable online providers that have good reputations among the adcoms, and for 11th and 12th she’ll take some more APs plus in-person college courses.
For this year, I had thought about having her take APUSH because I had heard that course was expected for the “toppy tops” (nod to the threadnado). Then when I realized no sane parent should encourage that specific AP when the kid is already signed up for 4 other APs and will only be in tenth grade (unless the kid really really really wanted to take it, which she emphatically did not because history is not her thing), I thought screw it, to heck with colleges insisting on APUSH no matter what. Of course, now I fully understand that colleges DO NOT insist on APUSH “no matter what.”
@JanieWalker I think there are homeschooler’s threads on CC. I would be busy on those looking to see how college admissions works with homeschooling. I’m guessing grades aren’t important because they will most likely be all As. I bet those AP test scores are important though!
I definitely do not know it all but I have learned a lot this year about college admissions. When kids are applying to schools with less than a 15% acceptance rate, it’s a crap shoot. I mean, let’s think about that as a fraction. Even at 15%, that’s only 15 out of 100 kids getting an acceptance. For RD, most of the T30 schools are now below 10% acceptance rate. What makes a student the 8 or 9 out of 100 that gets them accepted? There’s no way to plan for that. Let your kids be who they are, take the hardest classes they can without too much stress and let them get involved in what they like outside school.
When I checked the kids’ threads who got the full ride at Vanderbilt, they all had some pretty major obstacles they overcame and then ended up being big leaders - most of them at a state level but some nationally. That was never in S19’s cards. He’s had no adversity. He’s just a strong all-around student who writes well and whose teachers probably think he’s one of the best students they’ve had in a while. He’s a three season athlete who runs 50 miles a week so that probably looks good because he can pull that off and still get good grades. And he happens to be a talented painter. But that’s who he is - we didn’t try for him to be something he’s not.
He got the no from Williams on Monday. Their class is just 37% white so let’s divide that in half for boys and girls and now we are down to 18% white boys. Seven percent are legacies so let’s take 3% out of the 18% (assuming half are boys and most legacies are white). and we are down to 15% of the class are white boys. I’m guessing most of these were recruited athletes or went ED. So…small schools building a class. When looking at schools, you have to consider their priorities in admissions as well in order to estimate your student’s chance. We knew it was a long shot and we never visited so he’s fine. Just a cautionary tale for you guys to look at class profile so you know what you’re up against.
No, most homeschooled kids do NOT have all As. I don’t know why you would think that, unless you are implying that homeschooling parents are dishonest and give out As to inflate GPAs. None of the parents I know would do that - and almost none of the parents I know are giving their kids grades anyway. Many college-bound homeschoolers (almost all the ones we know) take high school/college courses through a variety of providers/institutions (both online and in-person) and do not have “mom grades.” The courses are taught by teachers or professors (depending on where the class is taken). The grades are earned and they are just as valid as the grades your children earn from their teachers. So of course adcoms look closely at homeschoolers’ grades. Some (but not all) adcoms also want SAT2s and APs in case they aren’t familiar with the institutions the homeschoolers use (or if the homeschooler does have some “mom grades” in with the mix).
I am already very familiar with how colleges in general work with homeschoolers and the specific requirements certain colleges (the ones D21 is interested in so far) have from homeschoolers.
Our situation is more similar than different to that of the others on this thread. Traditional core subjects and many electives taught by teachers/professors with lots of APs and, soon, dual credit thrown into the mix. Extreme involvement in specific ECs. Regional awards in academic pursuits and ECs. Volunteer work and part-time jobs, etc. Our specific situation differs from yours only in that my kids don’t take all their classes in one building, and I am their GC.
as @homerdog mentioned there is no real silver bullet when you are talking about the elite schools like Vandy, UNC and UVA OOS etc. Not to mention Ivies. My D18 had 35ACT, 4.5 W, 4.0UW plus 8AP classes, varsity sport, musical, led/started a project to get backpacks and supplies for inter city kids. Reject Princeton. Brown, UVA, UNC and wait listed at Vandy. Why … who the hell knows. Don’t allow the plotting of high stats staggergrams on Naviance or other wise give you and your child a sense of likely hood of admission.
I think @homerdog has the best advise. Let your kid be the person they are. Make sure they challenge themselves to be the best student and person they can be…and let the chips fall where they may. Apply to a variety of safety schools because the elite schools are a total crap shoot/lottery win even with the best stats. And if you get rejected to all of them like my daughter did you want your child to have a few choices.
@JanieWalker I apologize. I meant no offense. Sounds like your kids aren’t “homeschooled” in the way I meant. If your kids are actually going to classes and taking online courses, that’s different. The homeschooled kids I know around here are mostly with their parents except for maybe some AP science courses which they would take online. Your situation sounds more like a patchwork way of doing high school and I like it!
@homerdog - thanks, and I apologize if my response above came off as gruff. Homeschoolers in general have to deal with a lot of misconceptions and generalizations, and it’s important that a clearer picture be presented.
There are definitely homeschoolers out there who are not, IMO, getting the education they deserve. I can say the exact same thing for certain public/private schools though - some schools, for whatever reason, do not give kids the education they deserve. Just as an unethical parent could give a child an A in a mom-graded class, so could an unethical public/private school parent get a good grade for their own kid (by doing the homework and papers for them, leaving only in-class tests as an honest measure of the kid’s grade…which may only count for a small portion of the overall grade). This is why this particular homeschool parent absolutely supports accountability for ALL kids. Standardized tests definitely have their limitations, but I am all for them being used in college admissions. My kids will end up with scores from at least 3 SAT2s, the SAT, and umpteen APs, plus college grades from their dual credit classes. School kids should also, IMO, take a few SAT2s etc. These scores are the only way adcoms can really compare the quality of education across a massive variety of backgrounds.
I always call us “buffet schoolers” instead of homeschoolers. I like your “patchwork” term better though.
@JanieWalker If one has a way to make time for SAT2s, I agree it helps. S19 just could not get it done. It was impossible for him to find time to study and our curriculum didn’t match up to SAT2 concepts except for maybe Math 2. Sending AP scores helps as well even though schools don’t put those as “needed” on applications. There is a spot on the CA to report them. Taking and sending SAT2s for schools that don’t require them also puts the student in bonus territory I believe so, if kids have time to take them and do well, I would report those on every app.
@VikkiG5 I would try to hold the line on APs. Common wisdom circulated on this site and on admissions sites of some elite schools is that after 6-8 judiciously chosen AP classes, the point of diminishing returns sets in. Four sounds like plenty along with whatever other APs she might have this year beyond AP seminar.
Also, as @homerdog has written on this thread and elsewhere, given the capriciousness of elite admissions, think if the extra stress is worth it for an elusive, perhaps nonexistent return.
Also as @JanieWalker mentioned - which Calc and which Physics? My kid took Calc BC this year and it has been very demanding. As she is hoping to take Physics C and multivariable next year, we strongly urged her NOT to take APUSH as well, as I have heard that it is very time consuming. I would ask around about how those APs are taught at your child’s school and if they play to your child’s strengths (heavy on memorization of data/writing/quantitative skills/analytical skills, etc).
@homerdog Thanks for the reminder on SAT IIs. We were advised that they should be taken when the child has completed the related coursework at school (so Math II after Precalc, etc.). Will check in with D’s teachers to see if any are recommended at this point. They were very hard to schedule for our D17 during her junior year.
@mamaedefamilia We could not get our act together on SAT2s. S19 took Bio after freshman year Bio Honors but just got a 700. Didn’t study extra but I guess he should have. Planned to take Math 2 after pre-calc sophomore year but was so stressed out after finals and APs that he just decided he would do that in the fall…but then he spent all summer studying for the SAT and got an 800 on SAT Math and then XC started and he was bogged down with four APs so it didn’t happen. And then he got a 5 on the BC Calc exam and we just thought why would a school care is he can master pre calc (Math 2) when he proved his calc knowledge with that 5? Took SAT History after APUSH but that test is yucky. S19 got a 5 on APUSH and another 700 on the SAT History test. That test is like Jeopardy. Random questions about knowledge about history. All about dates and stats and he just didn’t know some of it. So, we let the APUSH 5 speak for his history knowledge.
@homerdog I hear you! D17 took the SAT 2 for US History and she got lucky and pulled out a decent score. I also agree that the AP tests show more than the SAT II, because an hour-long multiple choice test can’t demonstrate analytical writing skill or problem solving ability. However, for that increasingly small subset of schools that want the subject tests, it’s another hoop to jump through. FWIW, prep didn’t seem to make much difference for either of my kids for any major standardized tests they have taken thus far. Practice tests fell within a pretty narrow range as did the real thing. So I wouldn’t have any regrets about how much your son did or did not prep for subject tests.
Hi all, I haven’t posted in awhile. S21 is doing pretty well. He’s in one AP class this year (World Hist) and plans on 4 next year (Calc AB, Env Science, APUSH, and Lang). He’ll also have Spanish 3 and an art class required by the art program he’s in at his school.
He has a new batch of ideas for college majors: environmental science, wildlife biology, and/or anthropology.
Not that he has taken any of those as courses, but he is in a 4-year program at our natural history museum, where he gets to interact with the museum’s curators in those areas. He also participates in an outdoor education program (like scouts but no badges or baggage). He wants colleges near wilderness areas–no urban campuses. If he has time this summer, he wants to volunteer with the local wildlife rescue group or do a research project with them that would tie in with his natural history museum program.
He took the Pre-ACT with no prep this year and got 27. I think he can bring it up if he preps this summer. But, we may end up wanting colleges where sending scores is optional. His grades are good so far, and grading at his school is easier than at the high school S17 attended (same district).
We probably won’t tour any colleges until next year, but his list will probably include:
– Whitman
– Lewis & Clark
– someone suggested Willamette
– he says UMontana or Montana State, but that makes me nervous with him being trans
– he says Humboldt State, but I don’t like the pothead rep
– I want him to add UC Santa Cruz and UC Davis since they are in-state
I don’t think he needs any SAT2s for that list of colleges. (S17 took Math 2 and Physics in 9th. Looking back I maybe should have suggested he try the Literature SAT2, because he probably could have aced that also, and he was so pointy in STEM.)
Suggestions for colleges he should look at adding to his list are welcome.
Thanks all, really to many to name. It was physics 1 and AB calc. And yes like many others she’ll work work work to try and get the all A’s. The physics and calc won’t be as natural as the humanities, so she decided and we supported dropping to Honors physics, picking up AP Lit or Lang and keeping the fun elective. 4 AP plus 3 season varsity athlete who makes time to sing in 3 choir groups, plus various other EC’s is enough. Plus the poor kid wants time for a social life?. Re.the question on AP Seminar, it can be focused differently at different schools. Ours is English and it is recognized as such.
@Ynotgo Take a look at Western Washington in Bellingham - we liked this campus a lot. Medium-sized, very nice town, fantastic scenic location sandwiched between mountains and the sea and equidistant to Seattle and Vancouver. Tour guides had preferred pronouns on their name tags and it felt very inclusive. No football team and I think that the frat scene was pretty low key, but don’t remember 100% on that point. Strong in environmental science and there’s an alternative college called Fairhaven that might be of interest:
There’s WUE money if you’re in a western state (sounds like you might be) but apply early for best consideration, as well as some merit for OOS students beyond the WUE consortium. Also an Honors Program. My kid applied and the WUE cost was extremely reasonable. I really liked this one.
