We just found out that S23 got into a specialty subject cohort and the very small Honors cohort at a small college I would like to be his first choice!! Very exciting for us. It is one that is almost never mentioned on CC at all. I think the overall acceptance rate is 99% (for real) with a mid-20s ACT, but the professors are good, he has (smart) friends there, and it would be a good environment.
He has some merit money there and will compete for a larger one next month, but there are very few full tuitions given, and many high stats students do apply for them. We ran into some at Baylor who will also be applying for that one. Iâm trying not to push for the school at all so as not to spook S23, but inwardly all the adults around him are hoping!
If he is named one of the top merit winners, I think he would feel better about making that choice. It seems like it will all come down to April before we can see what the choices really are- and he only applied to six places with one rejection already, so only 5 left in play.
Interesting- having just purchased a new car, I donât feel like the admissions process is in any way like that.
Even determining a list of colleges to which to apply wasnât at all comparable in my experience, at least in terms of resulting list of desirables. Sure, I created a spreadsheet of attributes and characteristics, not unlike my daughter did for colleges. But I decided on one car that fit my needs- a Toyota, not a Maserati, but still requiring waitlists and deposits. The first dealership to come up with my car got my money. There wasnât any uncertainty as to whether my own attributes as a buyer were going to fit their âinstitutional prioritiesâ. First come/first served. Done deal.
What kind of constant maintenance do âhigh performance collegesâ require?
I have never used any dating apps or any online dating at all, but I see the application process as much more like dating apps look in movies than like buying a car.
Sure, you have some vague idea of what the other people are looking for- maybe they list what gender, age, and religion they want- but really who knows what anyone wants? You can swipe left (or right- I really have no idea which means which) to eliminate them, but most of the criteria listed officially donât clearly eliminate you or them from a âpossibleâ match. So you swipe a bunch, some never contact you, some do, but then they choose someone else for reasons you donât understand and wonât ever know, sometimes it seems like it will work out but a deal-breaker comes up, and one will a match finally, though there might be a break-up/transfer later in some cases.
So people will use different strategies to try to find a mate.
Some will swipe yes on a whole, whole lot of potentials that are really attractive in a conventional style- trying to get a good match by using a pure number game combined with some relevant characteristics of each âplayerâ to narrow the field a little to a manageable level and rule out any obvious ânos.â This is what we did when we needed/wanted a true full ride for D17 who was not NMF.
These people know that the possible matches are also making their own decisions for their own âinstitutionalâ reasons, but they also realize that no one (or college) has to disclose any of those institutional reasons for any choices at all. It is not transparent, so these âplayers/studentsâ figure swiping a bunch might result in a few matches. And often it does! Of course, it can also result in no match at all if too unrealistic. (Like my relative 5 years ago )
Some people will only swipe on a smaller number of mates that seem likely to like them back. Not picking the âway-out-of-my-leagueâ choices will likely mean less rejection or ghosting. Instead they try for those matches likely to actually like them. This means fewer rejections but also eliminates that chance to end up with a dream match.
Some will do a combination- swipe several that seem likely to like them back and a few that are a little bit of a longshot. This is what S23 did.
The uncertainty of what anyone is actually looking for or will choose (on both student and college sides) and the lack of any necessity to reveal why choices were made is what makes it more like online dating to me.
What is it the young people said about 20 years ago (when I was already not young)? Donât hate the playerâŠ
The car analogy works to a pointâthough I have bought many cars over the years and approach it completely differently than college . First, I see college as an investment where I want my money to go towards the best possible education, with excellent professors and a group of intellectual peers and majors that most suit each kidâs needs, and of course has great outcomes (connections plus jobs). In buying a car, it just needs to be the safest most reliable one for the least amount of money, which most commonly has meant used. New was the best option when all the carseat upgrades were only in new cars (and we had a new baby), and in the recession when New was actually a better deal than used. With college I will spend what I need to spend and am not looking for a deal. In fact, we hve always looked for deals and decreased spending in all other areas to be able to do the k-12 education that is best for our kids in our area. A friend pulled her kid out of the private school saying it felt like throwing away a brand new car every year: in other words she didnt see the education as an investment. From that point of view, why would one pay for private school?
From my point of view, the education was miles better compared to our local public, so it was not throwing $ away .
Obviously, different families make different decisions and weigh options in varied ways: i love hearing all the perspectives, and CC has definitely helped me find under-the radar college options which suit each kidâs list.
Curious tooâwhat is the âmaintenance â that a high performance college requires that a (more affordable âtoyotaâ one?) doesnt? I dont have high performance cars but I definitely know the upkeep costs plus fancy gas is way too much for me to deal with.
I agree with your entire post, but I disagree with the framing of this part of the analysisâyes, students and their parents are willingly and consciously doing this, but they are doing so in a situation where they arenât provided enough information to know whether it is the best move for them.
So the risk they take on that you mention later in your analysis isnât based in enough information to know whether itâs a reasonable risk to take. The problem is that the universities hold all the needed information in that scenario, and they arenât sharing it.
So like I said, I disagree with your framing that they âarenât being used as pawnsââno, they arenât, but saying it that way implies a lot more informed agency than they actually have.
p.s. Cars are a depreciating investment. A college education (hopefully) isnât, and so is more akin to buying a house, Iâd suggest.
I agree with others who point out cars are a depreciating âassetâ while an investment in education should get a ROI.
The ED situation is different, too. If a school asks my 23 to move to ED, we canât commit until we know how much money theyâll give us. We did use the net price calculators yet Iâve heard theyâre not accurateâespecially for the self-employed.
Schools tend to proclaim they want to accept a wide range of people. At the end of the day, they need a certain number of those who can pay full freight. When they ask people who canât afford full pay to become EDâand consider a ânoâ as lack of interest as opposed to lack of moneyâI will feel bummed about that.
Itâs fun to chat with you guys while taking a break from work. This also keeps my mind off of wondering what happens later this week.
Iâm glad people found something valuable with the car analogyâŠand I will be the first to admit it is not a perfect one-to-one.
Several people have asked what the âmaintenance costsâ are for a high performance college. I see several and they come up over and over on these boards:
Students unprepared for the continual competition at high performance schools. For example, the competitive process of extracurriculars, clubs and going Greek. How many times have I read parents or students complaining that they canât get into the club they want, canât build their resume through the extracurriculars they chose to college for, that the career center isnât giving them âenoughâ help finding an internship.
It seems like a lot of students and parents believe that getting into the high performance college is the finish stopâŠnot understanding the amount of time/effort/money it will take to get the full range of what their high performance college can deliver.
The amount of money it can take to run in some of the circles at high performance colleges. When most of a school is full pay, there is a discernible difference in how people spend money versus a school where there is a sizable number of Pell Grant recipients and middle class students. Yes, there are ways to get additional financial support from some colleges, but that also requires the cultural capital to understand those avenues exist and the time, energy and know how to actually access those resources.
Spending the time and money to build connections (social, academic, career, etc) is pricey. There is a difference in showing up to an interview well dressed, and showing up to an interview dressed impeccably. And the difference is going to be seen over and over at a high performance college.
Continuing with the idea of competition - many, if not most, students attending high performance colleges have always been âthe best of the best of the best (with honors)â. And many of them may be woefully unprepared for the simple fact that most of them will be average to mediocre at their high performance college by virtue of math. If they want to continue to be the best, they are going to have to work harder than they may realize. And some will find out it doesnât matter how hard they work - there are others who will always be better.
NowâŠall of these things can be worked on/doneâŠthatâs the maintenance cost Iâm talking about. And some students will thrive on the competition, the jostling, the figuring out the systems they need to crack to win. From my experience at a high performance college - most people wonât. A majority of students donât graduate with honorsâŠeven at the high performance colleges. A majority of students donât get the flashy club admissions. A majority of students donât get the jobs they thought they would, or admission to grad school/med school/law school.
Are problems with access to good career services an issue only with âhigh performanceâ schools? Is the social and economic cost of networking and interviewing well not a problem for schools of âlow performance â? Does the transition from high school to university only present an academic challenge for students attending âhigh performanceâ colleges?
IMO, the car purchase analogy is strained beyond the breaking point at each of the 3 points given.
We, too, see college as an investment in our children furthering their education. I think the only point of disagreement you and I might have is how we define âbest possible educationâ.
There were plenty of Honda/Hyundai colleges we found with âexcellent professors, a group of intellectual peers, majors that most suit each kidâs needs, and has great outcomes (connections plus jobs)â.
In addition to that, we saw high potential value in our children attending Honda college with a smaller pond. The amount of individual attention, great mentoring/support from professors, and opportunities D20 has had at her Honda school have been literally unbelievable. We thought there was potential for these things, but if you had told us 4 years ago all the things she would be able to learn, do and achieve - we would have laughed our butts off in disbelief.
We havenât seen any discernible individual educational/career outcome from a high performance college; we see a more widely acknowledged âprestigeâ, higher price tag and wealthier student body. Those werenât items we particularly valuedâŠand I know many people think you can only go the IB route or other, certain careers with certain schools, but that hasnât been D20âs experienceâŠand she wasnât looking for IB - it came looking for her.
This isnât just at âhigh performanceâ places, Iâll noteâtake a look at the intensity of the sorority system at SEC schools, as an easy starting point.
Agree that going Greek takes competitive to new level in SECâŠthe difference is you rarely hear people surprised by that on this board.
Likewise, you rarely hear people shocked by a lackluster career service department at a Honda/Hyundai school - those complaints are usually delivered by students and families who assume a prestigious, expensive school would obviously have an awesome career service department going the extra mile for all students.
Our state U, and one other I found, freeze the price for up to 5 years when you enroll (and continue full-time). Obviously, most donât do that, but itâs worth looking for if it helps your budget.
@MAmomto4 We live near Princeton, NJ, our oldest is a sophomore at Pitt. He just called me complaining about the weather. I told him that even Princeton University looks ugly and depressing today. As does every college and university in the entire Northeast. Not what he wanted to hear but he did say he loved me before hanging up.
What Iâve seen is students who are obsessed with the top tier admission because they think it is a ticket to opportunities just being handed over, and a huge salary, and âconnectionsâ. And they ruin their high school experience and mental health sometimes doing what they think they have to to get in.
So it can be very distressing to arrive on campus, only to discover that everything can be even more competitive, and at a very high price tag.
Yes, having misplaced expectations is definitely a problem. Iâd suggest itâs one that reveals a lack of student research, and can happen anywhere, regardless of school âperformanceâ.
Is it a lack of student research, really? Or is it doing the research but not knowing where the actual valid information is to be found? I mean, any number of posts on CC, including by parents and professionals who really ought to know better, would lead one to conclude that a high-prestigiosity college is a golden ticket, no further effort required.
Not to mentionâand this is a bigger issue, at least in some communitiesâthe legion of college consultants who prey on the insecurities of and lack of information held by college applicants and their families, and who have a financial incentive to tempt them toward the dark side of pushing the alleged advantages of higher-selectivity colleges.
Well said. My student also wasnât given the choice to apply ED to her dream school or any school. We canât engage in âbindingâ agreements without knowing the full cost especially when the difference over 4 years in tuition could be more than 100k, depending on merit.
ED seems to benefit wealthier students and disadvantages other students who have to wait ti apply EA/RD where as many as half the slots have already been taken and acceptance rates are much lower compared to ED. Schools aggressively using ED as a recruiting tool, testing a studentâs commitment, while simultaneously keeping families in the dark about finances/merit, really just doesnât feel all that welcoming.
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You wouldnât think so, right? But their plug-in hybrids are high demand/low inventory. Waitlists everywhere, though demand might be softening now.