I don’t think the Bama to Harvard comparisons are realistic.
Are there kids at Bama or Penn State or Colorado or Oregon or Kansas that could get in Ivy? Yes
Does an Alabama have this? Yes
UA currently enrolls a record 1,088 National Merit Scholars . The freshman class includes 322 National Merit Scholars .
College of Charleston isn’t even a flagship and my daughter’s BFF goes there over Rice, Penn, and Vandy acceptances.
But an ACT range 25/75 was 21/31. Harvard’s was 33/36.
41% of Bama kids are in the top 10% of their class. 59% are in the top quarter.
Harvard is 93% and 99% for top 10% and top quarter - and I’m sure some of those non top 10% are private / prep schools.
Bama has, for lack of a better word, soft majors like Advertising, Consumer Sciences, Hospitality Management. You won’t find soft majors at Harvard - well in my opinion these are soft.
Alabama buys in smart kids - I know it. My son is a recipient. Others pay full freight (low 50s) which is reasonable (those with the lesser ACTs/SATs).
BMWs and Mercedes-Benz are everywhere - and the campus is downright gorgeous, especially the main quad and engineering quad. It’s a fine school, very well clean and manicured, and many are getting fine outcomes.
And again, there are students there who can go toe to toe with students anywhere I’m sure.
But to compare Alabama to Harvard ? Hmmmmm - and I’ve got some prime swamp land to sell you.
The averages for a college have nothing to do with a student who might be choosing between a full ride at Alabama or similar vs paying for Harvard or some other T20 school. That student is going to have near perfect GPA and test scores. So will peers who are making the same choice.
The question is what that peer group will be like and what their expectations are vs the expectations of the student. And I think there’s some nuance here.
Thank you so much for your thoughts and ideas. I like him being at the head of the table. He’s a jazz and contemporary musician, so his ability to play in the local scene and graduate with connections will be among the most important factors, but there’s also the creative collaboration, pressure level, happiness, all that good stuff.
OK - yes, they can - but it will be more difficult. Or perhaps not if they’re in a special program like Blount or Randall Research - but that’s a small group overall vs. the quality that will run through an elite school’s student body.
I think those students can find academic peers at very many less selective universities. But their ambitions may or may not be aligned. It’s not ideal to go to say Columbia and be surrounded by a peer group of ambitious pre-professional students, if you are planning to be a high school teacher.
Yes, it can be helpful for them to “walk you through” their own thought process. As you said, they might be factoring in considerations that you can them help “weigh differently”, or they might hesitate about a certain aspect where parents can let them know that “it’ll be okay”.
As a high school teacher, I would definitely not be investing in Columbia for an education degree
However, I am also enormously relieved that neither of my kids have any interest in becoming a teacher. As awful as it sounds, I would struggle with that and probably just want them to go to an inexpensive state university.
Letter being sent tonight to ask if Hamilton will match Colgate’s offer. It is interesting to me that two very similar “meet need” SLAC’s have such different calculations. There is a $16,031/yr difference. And Hamilton’s endowment is slightly larger. Colgate pretty much matched our EFC result.
This is a sensitive topic. Let me say this one more time in a different way. One of my sons is fortunate to be in a class where amongst the math majors ( he thinks he is half math half CS) a quarter to a third are IMO gold medalists. His room mate is stellar in Classics. He is friends with someone whom is a IPho silver medalist. He knows that are nationally ranked jn debate. Ballet. Kids that are on the national youth orchestra first chairs etc. A person that held public office in a South American country who is now an undergrad that he knows etc. it is a privilege that he wouldn’t second guess and exchange it for somewhere else.
My other son who is in a large flagship finds his company lackluster. We tell him that there must be great people there that he just needs to look out for. In fact my older son is friends with kids from my younger son’s school that he thinks are very interesting / awesome.
I am sure kids are wonderful everywhere.
It is what it is.
I’m not sure there is disagreement that there are stronger and weaker students in academics, but that some of the measurements (like what college a student picks) are not perhaps the best measurement.
Much like lots of parents misjudge who the star athletes will be while watching pee-wee soccer, t-ball, Level 3 gymnastics - I think there are an awful lot of premature predictions on these threads. There’s a lot of life left after the 4 years of college.
UMD is another example. They are skilled at picking out kids who Ivy colleges would accept. They give these people full scholarships. These students don’t need to attend an Ivy to do well in life.
Branding is powerful and schools fight to have a strong position. Harvard will always be top 10 — partly because it always has been top ten.
But they accept low stats students if that “shapes” the class they want. Get media attention for something favorable and have decent grades and you will get in.
Harvard cherry picks people doing interesting things so the students are “proven.” Big schools do this and can fit in a lot more of them. Of course, they will have lower stat students to meet benchmarks set by state legislatures. UNC, Michigan, etc.
As to gold medals…my husband taught multiple Olympic gold medalists at the University of Florida.
Two of my Florida students joined the national team in their sport. Some joined the NFL and started foundations.
I am coming from the perspective of my kid’s experience, with a Columbia roommate, who was legacy and received ridiculous application consulting help, and also brought along her pattern of cheating as well as her drug habit and alcoholism. She stole money from my kid when her parents started limiting her cash, and copied in full one of my kid’s club applications when she left the room, ending in both of them being disqualified from membership.
There are plenty of students at elite schools who didn’t earn their place, don’t appreciate it, and aren’t pleasant classmates.
I think this can be more disillusioning for students at an elite school than a large public, because they are expecting better.
But to the original point, it can be harder perhaps to find ‘peers’ at some less elite schools. But I think the entitlement and lack of merit that can be really in your face at an elite can be sort of soul crushing too.
It’s definitely a privilege, and one most people would be thrilled to have. I’m sure your son earned the opportunity. A girl from my S21’s class got into Harvard and everyone (even the kids who were local state school bound) were thrilled for her. She is amazing in every way - academically and personally.
Another friend’s daughter got into USC, Michigan, and other impressive schools, but the family could not swing the finances. She is at UF and has a great “peer group” because of her major, the rigor of her classes, the clubs and activities she has pursued.
I think words like “caliber” and “peer group” can be triggering because many people will never have the opportunity to consider a T20 school. There are only so many spots and there are many capable, gold medal kids. It sounds like there is a ranking of student quality and it’s an exclusive club.
I agree that your younger son can probably find his group, but if he’s unhappy, best of luck to him. My son lucked into a fantastic roommate and that helped him find his people pretty easily. It can go the other way too, unfortunately.
I have decided that in this college decision process everyone’s situation is different.
This is not quite the Harvard/Bama discussion/comparison but it is in the same ballpark.
D23 - Great kid
Accepted to -
Boston U
Pitt (OOS)
UW Madison (OOS)
MiamiOH (Great merit offer)
Going to -
Central MI Univ (Full Ride)
I am not going to sugarcoat it as I know the overall strength per kid is better at the other schools. Here is the deal. D23 wants to teach 7-12 (History/Soc Studies) in a school for the Deaf. Not Special Ed, but just a school for the Deaf. She will have a college journey that will last for more than four years. CMU at $0 COA will help her reach her journey the best overall. CMU has a minor in ASL when not all colleges even have that. She will be in their Honors program and if she works at it she will probably do some special stuff.
Every Spring kids have to make this decision, which btw sucks because they are only 17 or 18 years old. Tons of kids pivot in college. My D19 did. There is so much that goes into making the decision. For some they value having peers that are on the same level. Some want to work the best professors in the country. Some want access to research. My D19 ended up getting published on two papers. Of course not lead author, but her name is on the papers. At some schools that are ranked higher she wouldn’t have had that opportunity. Some kids want a sports environment as well as academic. Then there is Greek life. Location is big for some kids. They don’t want to be far from home. And lastly there is cost. Some families have incomes that you might think would support some schools, but due to other issues they can’t come close to the EFC. Even the poorest of kids who get tons and tons of aid still might struggle to deal with the cost. Sometimes for families a $10K COA is no different than a $1K COA. Even that $1K is unattainable. At D19’s school one parent in town runs a food pantry for students who need some help. Toiletries can be an issue. Then there is the travel and having to be out of the dorm on breaks especially short ones. I didn’t even touch on the size of the campus and student body. My kids went to a HS with 3900 kids and there was no way they were going to go to a college with less students. Then other kids couldn’t fathom being on a campus with 40K students.
At the end of the day there are tons of colleges out there for our kids. I would say a majority of the time they end up at the place that is best for them. I always just wanted my kids to be happy and gain the skills they need to move to the next station in life. And if we could do it a little cheaper that would be great
This point about undergrad programs is also very true for Nursing.
While some people will chase prestige under any circumstances, it’s very hard to justify a 50-60K+/year traditional BSN program.
The end result is the same. The national licensing test is the same.
And…most importantly, the job opportunities nationwide are identical.
My S15 didn’t care much about school, was all about sports. My D17 was very academic and competitive. S15 went to Northern Arizona University, D17 went to Cal Poly SLO. Now Cal Poly isn’t Harvard, but my D found academically curious, hardworking students, high quality professors, etc… My S found Northern Arizona to be lacking in almost every way. He actually finished his degree remotely because he just wanted to move home. He did not find high quality peers or professors there and wouldn’t recommend it. We’ve had the conversation that he got out of his college search what he put into it. He has a degree, a career, and all is well, but I do see the difference in quality between schools. I also don’t think NAU is akin to Alabama. I think Alabama has something special and unique going on.
