Happy to give an extra Yadda.
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I would suggest that the conventional wisdom on these sorts of things is almost certainly unreliable.
Now, there may be a specific teacher whoâs an easier or a harder grader, sure, but thatâs very different than the class being easier or harder.
(Also, recognizing that there are course sequencing effects: AP Calc BC is going to be âharderâ, at some real level, than AP Calc AB because it contains more advanced topics by design, and an AP Physics C course is going to be harder than AP Physics 1 or 2 because it effectively has additional prerequisites. But I donât think thatâs whatâs under discussion here.)
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I think AOs look at the perceived rigor as well. Iâll give you my son and his friendsâ admittedly small sample sized example. S23 was 4th in his class, but maxed out rigor. He actually received a different diploma than his peers for taking the most rigorous classes in foreign language, math, and science. The three students above him are all undoubtedly excellent but all shirked rigor in some way, taking music theory or environmental science instead of physics, taking stats instead of calculus, taking honors anatomy instead of bio or chem. They all applied to the same schools, UCs, some privates, etc⊠My son applied under physics, his friends under business, and one under pre veterinary science. My son had a much more favorable admissions cycle than his peers. None of the others got into a UC they were willing to attend. Val is going to excellent private school for 90k a year, his parents would have much preferred a UC and itâs price tag. Sal is going to community college with plans to transfer because she didnât get in anywhere she is willing to attend, and number 3 is attending an out of state safety sheâs not thrilled with. I think the demonstrated rigor went a long way to getting S23 into Berkeley and many other fine schools. Obviously there are intangibles like essays we cannot quantify, but these are all high achieving students with excellent writing skills and top notch ECs.
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Receiving a different diploma type is not really what weâre talking about here, though, is it? Bringing that into the discussion is kind of a goalpost move.
I agree, course rigor usually trumps gpa alone, in elite college admissionsâkudos to your kid for taking the hard path and finishing so high! In our HS only about half of the time is the Valedictorian the kid with the hardest 4-yr courseloadâfortunately for mine she was able to do both (but val wasnt ever her primary goalâjust worked out that way). Only one or two other kids in the top10% took close to her courseload. The other handful who did finished much lowerâmore like top 15-25%âbut still got into highly-selective schools. Most of the time, colleges seem to be able to figure out who takes the easier path to a high gpa versus who loves the intellectual challenge of the hardest courses.
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This is my point. Colleges can tell whoâs gone after rigor. My kid was perfectly happy with fourth.
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The problem, again, is that for rigor to really mean anything it has to be measured at the level of the individual, and not in the aggregate.
But when weâre talking about whether the ârigorâ box gets checked on the counselor recommendation, it gets checked based on aggregates, which is a systemic problem.
A clear example: We have precisely one AP fine arts class (AP art studio) at the school district here, but the does have a robust fine arts program, even though zero fine arts classes are required for graduation. (And one of the high schools does have IB music theory, which is fine arts-ish.) Therefore, an artistically talented kid who loads up intensely on fine arts classes (rather than extra science and language electives and the like) and does spectacularly at them, including getting all As, wonât get the ârigorâ checkboxâbut a lot of the kids who get all As on their AP science and language courses would struggle intensely to keep their grades up if they were taking things like Photography II and Jewelry Design and Advanced Art II.
Basically, I reject the validity of the way we (including AOs) generally define rigor for college admission purposes, and find it a meaningless concept that is altogether too easy to game.
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I would assume though that if the student is applying as a fine arts major, these classes would be valued?
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Well, sure! But the point Iâm making is that stating that the students who took, say, a bunch of AP science classes had a schedule with more ârigorâ is an indefensible claim.
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I wouldnât be so sure of that. My D18 got a lot of great merit scholarships when applying for a BFA based on her rigor in academic subjects (4.0UW and 8 5s in APs) and high test scores (35 ACT). Admission was based on her audition not any high school classes.
Many counselors/schools including ours do not even check rigor boxes anymore. They provide a school profile of what is offered and vaguely state what the average student takes and let the college AOs figure it out. They may have prose in the individual letter to describe the rigor relative to peers for the kids where the rigor is far above average, but that is it. I think the well-versed AOs who spend time getting to know High schools in their area understand the nuances and can tell from the transcript and the profile, and prior years of experience. I dont want to call them out but our state flagship dean of admissions seems to understand the details extremely well and decisions almost always favor rigor over rank for most students.
Good for them, then!
(Because itâs a stupid checkbox. At one of my kidsâ schools, it was the opposite approachâthe GC checked the ârigorâ box for everyone.)
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Our valedictorian is based on unweighted GPA. Itâs stupid. The valedictorian is a bright kid and obviously has worked hard, but the salutatorian took SIX MORE AP classes than he did. My daughter was 6th in her class and took every AP class offered. 5th in the class didnât take any APs. It is a truly silly system.
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Music Theory is just as rigorous as AP Physics C. Arguably, it also demonstrates breadth as well. But, yeah, skipping a science entirely for a year is an interesting choice.
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I read all these posts and just feel a bit sad that there are so many kids out that not taking the courses they really want to take but taking the courses they feel they have to take.
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But for some skipping a science makes sense. My oldest took honors Bio, Chem, and Physics completed by junior year. Took calc BC junior year. Didnât need an AP science. Took AP econ, AP stat, and AP Seminar senior year because they would help her with pre-reqs for college.
Our HS did away with Val and Sal because they were splitting hair. They donât even rank. To be a graduation speaker, you apply to do it and it is based in many different factorsâŠ.
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iâm throwing an empty nest party in two months! Iâll be crying tears . . . of joy 
when D23 moves in to her dorm August 13! 27 years of kids in the house; its been great and iâm ready to start a new chapter.
iâm just very cynical about education and college admission right now though.
from what weâve seen at the large urban 75% low ses school for kids #2 & #3, grading was incredibly easy. they had no fails, they wanted everyone to graduate. The kids all took AP classes, but the AP pass rate was dismal. The rigor looks good on paper, but itâs not truly rigorous - the top kids in sonâs grade had lower ACT scores (low-mid 20s) but high GPAs. 2 AP kids with honors out of 500.
none of this makes sense to me. How are AOs supposed to catch the top kids if the school grades easily, kids have top ârigorâ and test scores arenât looked at? If a kid submits AP test scores, thatâs sort of going against the ânot-looking-at-testsâ vibe, right? GPAs, rank, it can all be manipulated and looked at so many ways. A top kid coming from a non-known school could easily be missed in competitive admissions because its easy to dismiss schools like this, with no history of sending kids on to their schools. Test optional is supposed to help those who might not do well on tests because of the test bias; yet thatâs so counter-intuitive to me for those that might score well despite having a poor school system.
When we pulled our D23 from this low SES school during covid to have her go to a small in-person school, there were undertones that we were racist, afraid to leave our child in this very urban school. What?!
and then at this new school, it was insinuated that we were gaming the system as our daughter was ahead in classes coming from the public easy-grading school, and could load up on higher level classes in an earlier grade and game the GPA. What?!
not sure what to tell my kids if they ever have their own kids as Iâm just shaking my head on all the things going wrong. I miss the old days.
OK rant over. Party on August 14th!!
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Our school has a cum laude honor for which they invite the honorees to an awards night, that you donât hear about unless you are invited. It is the top 20% of the class, not otherwise ranked. They did not get any mention on the graduation program. I am torn between thinking âthis is great, no one needs to feel badâ, and âwhy is it such a secret?â No cords to wear at graduation even though DECA, debate and performing arts all wear cords, so kids wearing these look âdecoratedâ and no explanation is given in the program so it is assumed by many in attendance that they are the top students. I guess the academic honor is known to those receiving it and their families, which is what should matter. But it seems a little much to keep it so secret when the main point of school is academics, and they want to preserve everyone elseâs feelings even though the 80% who didnât get it are clearly in good company. As I mentioned, I am torn about how this should be handled!
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I was responding to the quote from the previous poster who said that the student skipped physics in the process, as opposed to someone who had already covered the core sciences.
This is one of the tragic results of the American (not just American, but weâve got it particularly bad here) upper- and upper-middle-class beliefs (a) that a meritocracy is the optimal state for a society and (b) that merit is not just measurable but quantifiable. Even if (a) is correct, which I do not contest, attempting to implement it via (b) leads to some crazy perverse incentives.
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