<p>I am staying in for another 3 years on active duty to qualify for a full ride on the Post 9/11 GI Bill. The first 5 years do not count towards the GI Bill, I need to serve another 3 to get the 100% coverage. I can then attend medical school as a civilian with a majority of it being paid for by the Army. What it came down to was that my wife and I can not afford to take out that much more in school loans (hers are $100,000 plus, damn ivy league tutions), plus the civilian jobs I was offered were roughly in the same salary range as I am making now. Am I happy about staying in for another 3 years? Absolutly not. However, this decision will allow my family to live comfortably down the road.</p>
<p>I think we all understand your POV regarding why you are staying, but let’s be honest. You are not staying for altruistic reasons, you are staying for what is good for you fiscally.</p>
<p>The irony is you are criticizing people for leaving for altruistic reasons and what is good for them personally.</p>
<p>If you take the point even further, the SA’s accept this fact. IF THEY DIDN’T they would make them fulfill a commitment, just like you had to since you were commissioned from WP. The SA is not requiring this.</p>
<p>Through the 20 yrs that Bullet served we have seen people stay like you, and I can tell you that some of them were the most miserable people in the military. They were the ones that people avoided like the plague even in social aspects. Which of course made them even more miserable because they had no friends to hang with, which instead of looking inward, they blamed the military. It was to them just one more reason why they wanted out and why the military S*CKED. I am not saying that is you or your family, but trust me I don’t have enough fingers and toes to count on with my interactions and these members. Beacch enough and people will say why are you here, just leave already! If you retort that it is because of the almighty buck, then you made your bed, and many times also lose respect, because nobody wants to be a war with someone who isn’t emotionally invested. </p>
<p>These cadets at a very young age showed great maturity by saying, I am not invested, I don’t want this, let someone else take my spot. Let’s be real, right now the AF is going to be going through a RIF, it is not as if they can’t fill the spot with someone that wants it. It is not as if the AF is in the STOP/LOSS scenario.</p>
<p>Here is what I am saying: As an Officer in any Service your word is your bond. When you raise your hand and take an oath, whether on your first day of the Academy or when you pin on your butter bars 4 years later, that oath means something. It is not something that to be broken b/c you realize that you dont want to serve in a particular capacity. Whether you up hold your oath for personal or altruistic reasons that does not matter as long as you get the job done to standard. Granted the academies allow cadets to drop after two years, however for 2 years that “drop out” took up a slot for someone who actually wanted to be at the academy. Its very simple, if you say you are going to do something, you do it.</p>
<p>Yes, they took up a spot, but you are also missing the fact that the SA’s put that into the equation.</p>
<p>You are actually being harder on them than the SA. The SA realizes that they are young. If they didn’t they would force every cadet at I Day to sign up for commitment purposes as AD members.</p>
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<p>Please re-read your statement. Were you an officer on the 1st day of the Academy? NO!</p>
<p>Did your Academy time count to your yrs in service for AD pay? NO!</p>
<p>Were you allowed all privileges of the AD world, i.e. housing, dependents, PCS? NO!</p>
<p>SA cadets are not AD members with all of the benefits that the military gives for their personnel. You are mixing apples with oranges.</p>
<p>I am about to get flamed here, but OH WELL, you are a hypocrite!</p>
<p>You may have sucked it up and made it through because of your perception regarding raising your right hand. Yet, right now, you are using the military for a paycheck.
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<p>If my calculation is correct you are 27 or 28, judging a 17/18 yr old for their integrity. Where is yours? You have admitted you don’t want the military life, but you get the GI Bill, and there was no better job out there so you sold out your soul for the almighty paycheck. These kids aren’t about Gi Bills or jobs, they are about serving the country, they decided that the cost was too high.</p>
<p>It is so easy at your age to say man up, just wait until it is your child calling home and saying I made a mistake. It isn’t as clear cut as you think. Just like it probably wasn’t clear cut for you and your wife to decide to stay even though you hate it and regret it! </p>
<p>They are kids who thought they knew their paths, they realized that they took a left when they should have taken a right. We should all applaud them for putting themselves out there, recognizing they were on he wrong paths and allowing them to re-start.</p>
<p>Quick question if it wasn’t for those dam 100K Ivy league loans would you still be in the Army?</p>
<p>As a parent, I am going to close ranks here, and say, I get it. I get their fears, their concerns, their thoughts, to pile on them that their child is an arse is not only unbecoming as an officer, but again hypocritical from an officer who is using the military for their financial gain.</p>
<p>Re-read this thread…one AFA cadet left and enlisted…tell me who is the better service member…you because you made it through the SA and are now using the system, or him who opted to leave and is now serving as an enlisted member because he just wants to be in the AF? </p>
<p>I want him in our military!</p>
<p>Flame on! No problem with me if you attack me. I have no bone in this fight, my kid elected AFROTC over the AFA and Bullet retired 2 yrs ago. My only bone is about being insensitive to other posters.</p>
<p>Oh an yeah… that little issue that you admit you are using the military for yourself.</p>
<p>bulletandpima, I applaud you! </p>
<p>First let me clarify my son’s status. My son is now Army Reserve currently deployed to Iraq. </p>
<p>My son was an AFA cadet for most of the first year. He struggled in his academics. He had no choice in his class schedule. He was one of only 30 cadets that placed out of Chemistry. (I believe his first year would have been very different had he not scored so high on the Chemistry placement exam. He even tutored other cadets in Chemistry.) My son thought he wanted to be a flight surgeon - excelling in AP chemistry and AP biology. He took four years of Latin in HS. Since he placed out of Chemistry, he was placed in Arabic. Needless to say, his opportunity to shine was diminished. </p>
<p>Other events factored into my son’s resignation. He along with 27 other cadets, was accused and found guilty of cheating - which he vehemently denied. He violated the Honor Code because he did not report his roommate cheated. My son was already on Academic Probation. He did not want to risk being expelled. He chose to resign for personal reasons and received an Honorable Discharge. He still wanted to serve in the military. Had he chose to stay, he risked being expelled with a Less than Honorable Discharge. </p>
<p>My son decided not to pursue a medical career. He completing the second year of AROTC. He was not able to get contracted in time for the third year of ROTC. He was still determined to serve our country. He found a different Recruiting Officer that was able to secure a smooth transition into the Army Reserve. </p>
<p>His Academy experience was not what he expected. He was not prepared for that environment. In my opinion, the cheating scandal tested my son’s commitment to serve. He learned a lot about himself. He knows he did not cheat. He resigned with his honor intact. He now has the strength to face adversity head-on.</p>
<p>Looking back, he was not equipped or mature enough to uphold the oath he took. It takes a strong person to take the oath. It takes a stronger person to realize they cannot uphold the oath. </p>
<p>Ballinemt- How do you look in the mirror each day, knowing that greed is your motivation?</p>
<p>A soldier is SELFLESS, willing to sacrifice their life to defend the constitution. You have exposed your SELFISH motives. When you re-upped, your motives had NOTHING to do with defending the constitution. Don’t get me wrong, I am grateful you are willing to put yourself in harms way. However, you are no different than the cadet that takes the oath and changes his/her mind later (taking the spot of someone that “finishes”). You are taking the spot of an Officer with selfless motives that is more worthy of the job.<br>
As a parent of a soldier on the front lines right now, I am not “happy” he is in harms way. At the same time, I am comforted knowing he WANTS to be there.</p>
<p>Well I am glad we all have warm fuzzy feelings about why people go and serve their country. If that makes people sleep better at night I am all for it. I once too had these feelings. However, then came along marriage, school loans, mortgage payments, and kids. Then my priorities quickly changed from what can I do for the Army to what can the Army do for me. Bottomline is that is does not matter what your motives are. Here in Afghanistan, I do not care if one of my Soldiers joined for the college money or for patrotic reasons. If he can shoot, move, and communicate thats all I am concerned with.</p>
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<p>I actually feel sorry for you because what people are saying to you is flying over your head. You see the military as a paycheck, many others see it as a calling. </p>
<p>I agree we have military members that serve for both reasons, but I also respect their reasons. I might not agree with them, but I respect them. Your comment as a military brethren was crass to say the least when it comes to the warm fuzzy comment.</p>
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<p>WAKE UP CALL…people ahead of you had the exact same issues as you and never turned to what the military can do for me.</p>
<p>I married Bullet at 23, he had no college debt, I did. As a 2nd Lt. he took home 520 a month, my student loan was 126. We were left with 394 for spending (we lived on base). This was not 40 yrs ago, it was 20 yrs ago.</p>
<p>We had 3 children by the time he was 29, owned a home (VA loan), and still had 4 more yrs to pay off my student loan while we paid for pre-school and two car payments. SHOCKER, but money was so tight we did not get a 2nd tv, until my in laws bought us one for our 5th wedding anniversary. </p>
<p>At the ripe old age of 36 Bullet got his dream car…a corvette (and no there was no pilit bonus for it). That Honda we bought as a 2nd LT. was the car he was driving as a Major. Imagine driving a Honda in AK with 40 inches of snow…not fun, but it was paid for and we had made our fiscal decision to buy a safe car for me in the kids. We never had a car for less than 5-6 yrs.</p>
<p>What does this mean to you compared to the price of shoes in China? It means that we lived with those warm fuzzy feelings, i.e. calling and sacrificing to serve. We understood and agreed with the military ideology of SERVICE BEFORE SELF.</p>
<p>BTW, I want to give some great anecdotal insight that the military life can be balanced fiscally, if you just don’t try to keep up with the Joneses.</p>
<p>I never HAD to work, it was my option. Bullet and I placed family first because we knew it would create the best stability for our children. It was our choice. We had beautiful homes in great neighborhoods, were known for our 6 week dinner parties (we entertained in our home every 6 weeks, sometimes it was 12 people, sometimes it was 100). We were able to buy a camper in AK to camp with the squadron during Salmon season. We invested 30% of his paycheck into mutuals. Once my undergrad was paid off, we used TAPS (Tuition Assistance for Personnel Spouses) to pay for my Grad. The AF pd 75% for Bullet’s grad. Our kids went to Disney, when we lived overseas we came home yrly. Honestly, we didn’t take yrly vacations, because we spent the money going home to see the family, vacations were every couple of yrs… Yet they had a week in Scotland when Bullet was stationed in the UK. A week in the Outer Banks when we were in NC. 4 days in Vegas when we PCS to AK. The grand finale was saving for 3 yrs to take them to Italy for 17 days and 7 of them were the Winter Olympics.
Not bad IMHPO, for a couple living on the dreaded military salary, and repaying college debt.</p>
<p>You will not be a millionaire in the military, but if you live within your means, you won’t be sacrificing going to Outback for Burger King.</p>
<p>As for this warm fuzzy feeling wife, the fact that 2 yrs later I still miss the life, is why when our beloved DS1 decided to follow his Dad’s footsteps, we had no qualms. There is no salary in this world that can make up for the friendships I have formed, the joys I have experienced, and the beauty of the military life. Only 6 weeks ago we attended a wedding of the child of one of those friendships. In the military, friends are family members you chose.</p>
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<p>Nobody is going to argue that fact, BUT again as a spouse, I can’t tell you how many times I heard the guys complain about the morale because all they heard from XYZ was beaach, beaach, beaach. Are you telling me in AFghanistan that morale is not an impact?</p>
<p>It might not be for the Army, but in the AF it is a big deal.</p>
<p>You have the right to your opinion, I respect it. Why is it you can’t bring yourself to acknowledge that you staying is for you and you alone from a fiscal standpoint. Those that leave prior to commitment are leaving for them and them alone from a personal standpoint?</p>
<p>You are 27/28 with a wife and a child, they still can’t drink legally! They are kids, kids that thought they got it, to only realize very quickly, CRAP, I MADE A MISTAKE. Is your wife the only girl you ever dated? I doubt it! So, you too had a change of heart as a youth. They are 17/18/19 yo, they are young and still need guidance. They should not be shunned or attacked, as if you, because you decided to stay for financial reasons at 27 are morally higher.</p>
<p>FWIW, Balline, I hope you do understand that under the Obama administration contractor jobs are being converted to govt jobs. Govt jobs take months upon months to get, and traditionally, as you have found out they are equal to the pay for your AD rank. If you expect to get a contracting job and go for your Masters at night, you might want to re-think that thought because of this conversion.</p>
<p>Let’s all tone it down a bit here. Pima, it’s wonderful that you and Bullet devoted so much time and effort into serving our country, and also that you made it all work out financially. Believe me when I say that we all appreciate Bullet’s service, your son’s service, as well as your unending support. However, there’s no need to chastise an AD Army Capt who, I’m sure, has a different perspective on things than any of us can readily and wholly understand. I would be willing to bet that the Captain has seen things that I still cannot or do not wish to imagine. There are many reasons that compel someone to military service. Many serve our nation, especially in tough economic times like this, simply because they need a steady job. I’m inclined to believe that many are currently enlisting right out of high school for that very reason. The same is true at the Academy: different people come for very different reasons. None of these reasons are wrong as long as the requisite commitment to service is there.</p>
<p>Ballin, while we respect your viewpoint as well, I’m convinced, personally, that allowing cadets and midshipmen to leave during their first two years is a good idea. There are a number of people here at USAFA who should not be commissioned as officers. I’m sure you saw the same thing at West Point. If officer candidates were permanently committed the second they took the oath, our military would be forced to accept a number of officers who simply are not up to par. I’m sure we would see a number of kids who, four days into Basic Training, decided that this was not the lifestyle they had envisioned. Many of them would probably “check out” mentally, and there’s nothing worse than an officer with a long commitment ahead whose heart simply isn’t in it. I’m almost certain that a stronger commitment policy would adversely affect the quality of the officer corps at a time when our military absolutely cannot afford it.</p>
<p>Both perspectives are valid and have merit. I’m of the opinion, however, that just like most things in life, the “correct” answer likely lies between the two extremes.</p>
<p>Wow, I hadn’t been on here in a while and didn’t see there were new posts. Very interesting to read everyone’s opinions. </p>
<p>Well, my son has decided, for now, to stick it out at USAFA. He and I both feel he had hit a low point, was homesick (still struggling with this some) and just plain stressed out. Girl friend from high school is still in the picture and is not very supportive of his being away at USAFA, so I think that is part of the problem. He has finally gotten off ac pro, so that has made things better, and expects to be off PT probation at semester so that will free up some more time. He also, is just not a social butterfly, but has realized that he needs to involve himself in some activities for fun, to make connections with other cadets, and just to relieve some stress. He has joined the ski club and the jazz band and is excited about those things. </p>
<p>I don’t doubt that there will be more of these low points to get through, but for now things seem better. </p>
<p>Thanks so much to those of you who offered advice.</p>
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<p>This may be a hard pill to swallow for him, but as a spouse of 20 some odd yrs, and a gf of 5 before marriage. I would sit him down and talk realistically to him about their relationship. I have supported our DS’s relationships, yet the only time I step in is when he says she is not being supportive of the AF way. </p>
<p>He needs to understand that if she is going to have issues with the AF now as a cadet, what will she be like if this relationship moves forward and they get married. Our wedding date was chosen because of his ability to get leave in the AF. Bullet was sent TDY when our DS1 was 10 days old. He was on the runway when I went into labor with DD. He was in the field with the Army on my due date. He missed every Halloween for 7 yrs, and our 7th wedding anniversary was celebrated in a Denny’s because we were PCSing from NC to AK.</p>
<p>If she is playing an impact in his life that is affecting him at the academy, IMHPO, you need to have an adult conversation and discuss how she feels about him in the military. He will owe back time, like it or not. The number one stresser for AD members is the impact on love ones.</p>
<p>Our DS has a very supportive gf, but they got into a fight just recently because of the fact that he promised to visit her and at last minute, plans changed. I told him flat out, you need to discuss this, if she is unwilling to understand that the AF will be your wife and she will be your mistress, than it is better to end it now than 2 yrs from now. He took a vow to the AF. He said, service before self, they need to talk it out. They need to be adults and clear the air. </p>
<p>I know that is harsh, but that is true IMPO. You need to respect the relationship, treat them like adults and maybe make them think about what each other needs or desires from the relationship.</p>
<p>There is a poster that was at Bullet’s retirement and they will tell you, that Bullet had stated at his retirement, that I always said I was number 2 in his life, and now after 21 yrs I was finally going to be number 1. It takes a strong person to get service before self when you are the wife or gf. It also shows the depth of love.</p>
<p>I wanted to bump this forum, I think it can be of help to parents that are going through this right now.</p>
<p>Considering it happens EVERY month shouldn’t you bump it every 30 days?</p>
<p>Thank you all for this thread. My DS was a class of 2015 who made it through one very difficult year at USAFA and is struggling to regain himself and find a new path. He has a low GPA due to a concussion that put him on 3 weeks of bed rest and restricted him from computer use for that time. As you can imagine, the steamroller that USAFA is rolled right over him and he resigned rather than being forced out by his grades. Some instructors allowed him to make up work, others did not which absolutely crushed his grades. As a recruited IC athlete, he is just hoping for a shot at the other colleges that he took trips to and was accepted with scholarship offers to before he chose USAFA. He has done the FAFSA application and enrolled in the local community college for this semester to improve that GPA. The advice about writing a letter has really encouraged him. He is hopeful that will give him the chance he needs to prove that in a regular college setting, without all of the extra pressures, responsibilities, and a concussion he can be a very successful college student athlete.
Thank you all for sharing your stories and advice here. I simply googled for help and advice and here you are! :)</p>
<p>I am curious if your afa cadet played football. My son is a freshman and is looking to leave asap. Unfortunately, I believe he will have to stick it out for the entire year to transfer to another college for football. Do you have any recommendations?</p>
<p>afaparent: What are your son’s priorities?
- Becoming an Air Force Officer?
- Playing football at the college level?
- Graduating college in 4 years?</p>
<p>Might be able to offer more specific advice/recommendations when we understand what he/you are hoping to accomplish.</p>
<p>Things have changed in 40 years. But I doubt if one thing has: The ONLY reason to attend a Service Academy is that you desire a military career. If you’re going for the free ride, pilot training or lack of other options, you won’t have the drive it takes to survive 4 years of insanity. </p>
<p>Hi momof3boyz! I would like to private message you, but can’t figure out how. My daughter (cadet 2017) outprocessed in December 2014. It was, and continues to be difficult. She had severe anxiety and ended up in a mental institution twice before calling it quits. She is trying to move on, and going really well. The USAFA is trying to collect a debt of 3,000$ from her. Anyway, please post me a note, or whatever, if you have time. We could use a little support! She gave up two full rides/ scholarships to go to the academy. </p>
<p>Whole lot of posts from people who only have one post. Where do they go after posting once on this thread? </p>