Wasn’t sure where to post this so here it is lol. D is considering taking an economics class “just to see if she has any interest in that direction” and asked me if its a negative spot on her transcript if she takes it pass/fail. I, of course, told her to check with her advisor but I bet I’ll get a faster answer right here. So, is there a downside? She finished her first year with a 3.95 GPA and has heard that this particular class/instructor can be difficult (and she doesn’t need the class for her major/minor choice as it stands). It will fulfill a social science requirement.
You might want to check that Pass/Fail classes can be used towards degree requirements at her university, many times they can’t. If that’s the case, and she takes the class Pass/Fail, it will probably just fulfill an elective. That being said, one Pass/Fail class or one W on a transcript is not going to make or break her in terms of applying to grad school or finding a job as long as she remains full-time.
I don’t think one P/F class in a non-major discipline would matter at all. She just needs to be sure she is eligible to take a P/F class at her college (a few colleges only allow juniors/seniors to take a P/F class). However, as noted above if she does choose to switch to an the economics major route, a P/F class may cause an issue (a P/F class may not count towards a major/minor). She would need to email her advisor and ask these questions as each school has its own policies. Also note that in many colleges students can elect to switch a class to P/F during the first few weeks so that may be an option as well.
If it’s a non-major course and classes taken P/F can be used to fulfill distribution requirements(not all colleges allow this), than taking that Econ course P/F is fine.
Is this an intro Econ class or an intermediate/advanced level Econ class? Just wondering as the intro econ class I took as an elective was no different than the Econ class I took in HS and in retrospect…repeated much of the same material.
Agree on the Pass/Fail aspect.
Not sure I agree with the W aspect as my older relatives who do hiring and some former employers have stated they view Ws on transcripts almost as negatively as Fs.
They’d advise students who feel the need to withdraw from the course to do so before the deadline when the W will be left on the transcript or if needed, do a medical withdrawal which will wipe the transcript clean for the term in question.
Some places the decision to take a course P/F doesn’t have to be made until late in the semester, so she should find out what the policy is. I would wait as long as possible to decide.
Thank you everyone. Its a 100 level course (she has never had any type of econ class before).
@sylvan8798, that is something we never considered, maybe she doesn’t have to decide before enrolling? Honestly, she has never had a grade less than A so I’m not sure why she’s concerned about a 100 level class but she takes a tough load so she’s probably just being cautious. She was going to take an “easy” 100 level humanities class to fulfill the requirement of social sciences and then decided maybe she’d like to learn a bit about economics but not to the detriment of her GPA.
@cobrat I don’t think that one W is a deal breaker, but I agree that a pattern of class withdrawals would be a red flag. My S withdrew from one class freshman year and got into a top grad school in his field – he was not asked about the W in his interview for grad school or by his employer ( a Big 4 accounting firm). I doubt that any future employers will bother asking for his transcript, but by now he has a very good track record of achievement both in the classroom and at work so I can’t imagine it would be an issue.
Of course every grad school and every potential employer would have his/her own take on a course withdrawal. Just offering up my S’s experience. Again, I agree that a pattern of withdrawals would be another story entirely.
@happy1, this may sound ignorant but how does an employer know about his freshman transcript? Is that something that employers ask for in the hiring process?
Employers, particularly first employers, might well ask for a copy of the final transcript (which will include freshman grades). They want to be certain that the new hire has actually graduated etc. My experience has been that this is typically done late in the hiring process and unless the job applicant lied about his/her GPA/major etc. or the transcript has real red flags then it is not an issue.
Thank you @happy1. I have no doubt D’s transcript will shine but wasn’t aware that employers might ask for it. Good to know. So, how important is it to keep all high level classes on your transcript? Is it okay to take a few lower level classes just for fun?
^I have 6 W’s on my undergrad transcripts. No one has ever asked about them. OP, it’s fine to take some lower level classes - no one expects that a student who is interested in some topic will start with a 300 level course. Having a wide variety of interests is a positive.
First semester econ is not that hard. There are some advanced topics in econ (econometrics, for one) which are very, very challenging, but a solid and serious student shouldn’t be afraid of it even if the professor has a reputation for being tough.
Is there a reason why she’d worry about protecting her GPA in lieu of taking classes she’s really interested in?
@NEPatsGirl I don’t think it is any issue to have some lower level classes for fun/personal interest. That is part of what college is all about. As long as there is a mix of classes that is fine. My D took an upper level class as a freshman and an intro level class as a junior (she started a minor late in the game and it was a required class) and it was no issue for grad school.
@blossom, I assumed a 100 level economics class would not be an issue for her but she is wants to keep her GPA high for grad school admissions. She took pretty challenging classes her first year and I think she pushed herself too hard. She now wants to relax her schedule a bit but is afraid to branch out from her STEM classes (where she knows she’ll do well). I want her to explore classes in finance, actuarial science, etc. She’s really having a tough time deciding on a second major (she’ll complete her Math major end of sophomore year) but at the same time doesn’t want to jeopardize her STEM grades. Does this make sense? I feel like I’m talking in jumbles.
While none would go so far as to say one W is a deal breaker, the older relatives and my former employers did state that considering the vast majority of transcripts with job applicants they’ve reviewed don’t have any Ws, Ds/Fs, or even more than a couple of Cs, having one or more of those listed factors of those can put an applicant at a serious disadvantage relative to the rest of the typical applicant pool they see.
The relatives’ point, best to prevent a W from happening in the first place rather than risking having it be a factor in getting dinged in the application process…especially with employers with competitive applicant pools.
That’s a bit odd to me as most classmates/friends strong in STEM in HS, college, and beyond tend to regard Economics just as much of a “gut/slacker” course/major as other social science/humanities courses as its quant requirements are far lower than what their aspiring/actual STEM majors requires.
Only folks I knew who were seriously concerned about grades in intro econ classes were students whose mathematical background had serious gaps in middle/early HS level algebra and/or arithmetic.
Now if she was that concerned about Intro CS courses for majors…I can understand that from having taken a few of them and seeing how even students who were STEM whizzes in their respective HS environments found themselves struggling in those courses.
No, I think its all about the unknown…she’s never had any introduction to economics or finance and she’s talking to friends who are not STEM majors (in different schools). I can’t imagine a solid 4.0 math major would have any issue with a 100 level econ class but I can’t convince her of that lol. And fwiw, she is also considering CS as her second major. She’s currently doing a summer research project (Quantum Mechanics I think?) where three upper classman partners are working on the chem portion and she was “invited” to do the math/computer science piece.
That would be puzzling to most STEM majors…especially HS classmates from my STEM public magnet. Most who ended up in Physics, Math, Engineering, CS, and other STEM heavy majors regarded Econ as a “fallback major” for college classmates who couldn’t hack the quant requirements and perceived greater rigor of those STEM heavy majors.
Among many such STEM heavy majors…especially those high on the STEM machismo…it’s not unheard of for Econ to be regarded by this group as a “Basket-weaving major”.
My bottom line would be to tell her to take the class if it is an area of interest and see how she is doing before deciding if she wants to take it P/F or for a grade. She should just talk to her academic advisor and be aware in advance: 1) if a P/F class will fill the humanities requirement if that is the goal (at my kid’s college a class needs to be taken for a grade to fill a distribution requirement); 2) any restrictions the school has on a student’s ability to take a class P/F’ and 3) what the last day she can switch to P/F is and what is the procedure for doing so.
IMO it is great that she is willing to go outside her comfort zone so kudos.
In most cases, taking a course outside her field of interest P/F would be a non-issue. There are some exceptions, which vary by college.
First, at some schools profs can refuse to admit P/F students. If it’s a large lecture class with multiple sections, it can happen …again, at SOME schools…that taking the course P/F means you can’t enroll in a particular professor’s section. All too often, it’s the better profs who limit their sections to those taking the class for a grade. Second, at some schools, a P can count against you for determining eligibility for honor societies like Phi Beta Kappa or Latin honors. This is because some college faculties think it’s unfair for a student with 31 As and 1 B to graduate with a lower GPA than a student with 31 As and one P. At some schools, for purposes of determining such honors, there are mechanisms for adjusting your GPA downward for Ps when the time comes to determine eligibility for such honors. Again, I am NOT claiming that most colleges do this. I’m only saying that some colleges do. Since she has a very high GPA she might try to find out how it works at her college.
What if she decides to pursue additional economics classes, can a P/F class be used as a prereq if needed?