<p>Hey everyone! I know people have asked questions along this line before, but I haven't seen any recent discussions dealing with this specific topic. I'm a sophomore at a top 20 LAC with a 3.9 G.P.A. and I am certain I want to go to go to law school in the future. I am strongly considering taking one of my classes, a social psychology class unrelated to either of my majors, P/F (i currently have an A- in the course, however that was with a curve we were given for the midterm since much of the class did poorly. We are not given this curve for the final, unless my prof feels the majority of the class performed poorly. Essentially my final grade in the class could be anywhere from an A or a B and I know anything less than an A will bring my G.P.A. down at this point). Will taking this class P/F hurt me when I decide to apply to law schools in 3-4 years (I'm hoping to work for a year or two), specifically if I'm shooting for a school in the top ten? I don't plan on using the option again, either. The research I've done (and by that I mean looking at schools websites, reading other discussion boards, and Law School prep books) suggests this will not hurt me, but I was just wondering what the general wisdom might be from others who are similarly geared toward law school and/or have some experience with this.</p>
<p>LSAC doesn’t count pass/fail courses-it only counts against you if you fail.</p>
<p>I don’t think law schools care, really.</p>
<p>law schools care, just dont accrue too many Ps. I’d say the magic number is around 2 or 3, but im pulling that out of my bum.</p>
<p>futurenyustudent and flowerhead, thank you both for your responses.</p>
<p>Whether a P hurts you more than a C is still to be seen. But you’re probably better off with a P than a C (or god forbid, below).</p>
<p>futurenyustudent, thanks. I’m actually not concerned about getting a C in the course, my grade as it stands right now, and as I mentioned in my earlier post, is around an A-. However, since there seemed to have been such a discrepancy with the midterm (a very high percentage of our class received a C or below) I’m concerned that may occur again with the final and my GPA will suffer because of a class that is not in my major, nor in a field I am overly interested in pursuing further. Because my current grade in the course is not “real” (ie: my midterm exam grade was the result of a curve, and hence so is my overall grade in the class) and I have no guarantee of this curve occurring again unless people do just as poorly on the final, does it not make sense I should minimize the chance of a “surprise” B or even B+? </p>
<p>Also, when you say “Whether a P hurts you more than a C is still to be seen” to you mean that there are some law schools which might view this P as a C? If so, would you happen to know of any specific examples? My impression so far has been that it would simply be disregarded, particularly if it is the only one on my transcript. </p>
<p>Thanks again for your responses!</p>
<p>Some law schools might look badly upon a P in lieu of a letter grade. If it’s a question of taking a C vs. pass-failing it and taking a P instead, I can’t give you that answer. Maybe some other poster that’s gone through the process can answer this.</p>
<p>My gut tells me though that if you’re looking at a B- or below, do everything in your power to pass/fail the course. LSAC doesn’t count your P at all in your GPA, which does two things: you have fewer credits so if your grades are otherwise good, they will get an albeit tiny bump, and you’ll avoid the destructive effect that a B- or C+ can have on your GPA. Plus with the assurance that you only need a 60.0 in that class to get a P, you can focus on your other classes which may result in better grades across the board.</p>
<p>If you have an A-, I’m not sure why you’d pass/fail it. Unless you’re at Brown where you can pass/fail absolutely everything, save your pass/fail for emergencies (i.e. you’re unexpectedly failing a class and it’s past the drop deadline-a pass/fail is effectively a drop in workload terms-I can get a 60% in any class, blindfolded with one hand tied behind my back).</p>
<p>what about courses that are compulsory pass/fail?</p>
<p>futurenyustudent, although at the moment I do have an A- the reason I am toying with taking the class P/F is because I feel this A- could possibly turn into a B+ or a B when the final comes around. There was a rather large curve on our midterm (because a majority of the class did quite poorly), which will likely not be there for the final. I studied quite intensely in the weeks leading up to the exam and still came away with an 83.5 (the highest score in my class, to give you an idea, was an 86, I believe). I’m worried that even with the same amount of prep, If I score similarly my grade will drop from an A- and I will not have the same curve to fall back on as I did (unexpectedly) last time. </p>
<p>I have a good relationship with the professor and I am thinking of asking her to write me a letter of recommendation to keep on file with my school’s career development office (we have a system in place where students can keep general recommendation letters on file). The letter would essentially (hopefully) attest to the fact that I was engaged in and participated in the course and still produced quality work, even though I wasn’t taking the class for a grade. </p>
<p>I am taking an eight credit language course this summer, which I know will also be factored into my lsac gpa. These credits are transferable to my home institution, and so credits are not a major concern for me. </p>
<p>Xptboy-At least where I am in school, courses that are compulsory P/F are not distinguished as such on your transcript. I’ve heard having the professor write you a recommendation can be helpful (although perhaps we should wait and see what others think of my idea). I might suggest calling your school’s registrar’s office to see if they do in fact distinguish courses that are compulsory P/F on the transcript, or if you feel you can manage it, taking an extra class to balance it out?</p>
<p>If you think it’s going to do substantial damage to your GPA (what “substantial” is depends on your GPA itself-at a 3.4, a .1 drop is substantial while at 3.9 that’s nothing), then pass/fail it, no doubt. There’s no reason to killself over one class, all the while hurting your GPA.</p>
<p>While a B won’t hurt your GPA all that much in the grand scheme of things, the danger zone lies in B- or below imo, where that one bad grade could do some substantial damage to your GPA. So if it’s going to do substantial damage to your GPA, pass/fail the class. A P will probably hurt less than a B- or god forbid, below.</p>
<p>OK, there seems to be a lot of confusion here (mostly perpetuated by futurenyustudent’s inexperience). </p>
<p>Overall GPA matters most. Whether you have a 3.8 with a C or a 3.8 with a P makes no difference. Some of my classmates got into my Columbia/NYU law school with–gasp–Ds on their transcripts. It’s fine.</p>
<p>Now of course it is going to be harder to get a 3.8 with a C than with a P, but that’s a separate issue. It’s fine to have several Ps (but I’d max it out at, say, 2-3). If you think you’re going to get a C in the course, and you have no Ps on your transcript, go ahead and take the P for the sake of making that 3.8 attainable.</p>
<p>But having a “C” on your transcript doesn’t intrinsically hurt by virtue of the fact that you have a C, in my opinion. Your GPA is what matters. Having too many Cs is, of course, bad, but that’s because your overall GPA will probably be a lot lower after that. Your goal should be to get a high GPA. If you feel like you can still accomplish that with a C on your transcript, go ahead. If you feel otherwise, get the P.</p>
<p>As an aside: I understand your pessimism regarding your current performance, but you need to relax. You have an A- in the class at the moment. I think you’re worrying a bit too much.</p>
<p>Of course overall GPA matters the most and you want the highest GPA you can get. Your chances are severely hindered by having a C or god forbid, D on your transcript. If you’re looking at a D, there’s no doubt you should pass/fail it.</p>
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<p>Thank you for paraphrasing my post:
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<p>As and Bs>>>>Ps>>>>>Cs>>>>>Ds and Fs.</p>
<p>flowerhead, thank you for your earlier response, it is much appreciated! Your point about needing to relax is well taken, the deadline for me to decide whether to take the course Pass/Fail is this Friday and so I am trying to find out as much as I can before then. I’m curious if you have any thoughts as to whether a letter of recommendation from my professor attesting to my participation and solid performance in the class would be helpful? Granted, I am only a sophomore and I plan on taking a year or two off before I apply so the P/F will be far into my record at that point. </p>
<p>futurenyustudent, it seems to me that you are of the opinion P’s are roughly equivalent to C’s (albeit without the harm to your GPA) and that A’s or B’s in a class are superior no matter what. While I understand your reasoning, you also say “you want the highest GPA you can get.” If I expect this is the only class I will have a problem with, and I suspect it will end up bringing down my GPA (even if my grade is a B+ or B and not a catastrophic C) does it not make sense that I would take it Pass/Fail?</p>
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<p>It won’t matter.</p>
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<p>futurenyustudent is unnecessarily simplifying and misrepresenting the situation. I recommend ignoring him.</p>
<p>Like I said, it really depends on where your GPA is. If you have a 3.9, a B will hurt your GPA but it’s a drop in the bucket assuming your other grades are good. At a 3.4, a B will do less damage, but a C will do substantial damage no matter where you are (the higher the GPA, the greater the fall). IMO it’s not worth pass/failing until you get into that danger zone. The exception is if you can limitlessly pass/fail like in Brown, in which case, pass/fail anything and everything you don’t expect to get an A in.</p>
<p>What a P is roughly equivalent to, I frankly don’t know or care. But I suspect it won’t be something you want to have.</p>
<p>For what it’s worth, I inquired about P/F at Michigan law a few months ago and they effectively told be they could not care less about two or three P’s as long as you didn’t make a habit of using them inside your major. I had anticipated having to take three general ed required courses P/F and admissions there told me not to sweat it.</p>
<p>'what “substantial” is depends on your GPA itself-at a 3.4, a .1 drop is substantial while at 3.9 that’s nothing"</p>
<p>Bwuh? If you want to go to YLS, dropping from 3.9 to 3.8 is a very big deal.</p>
<p>99.9% of the population of prospective law students do not want to go to YLS. It’s not relevant to 99.9% of the prospective law student population.</p>