Most colleges don’t have a lot of money to give, but if you want to gamble on need based aid you could always quit your job. I’d rather have the income. I doubt most people are making these decisions based on the potential for need based college aid. Those who are may be in for an unpleasant shock.
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You benefited from “income shifting” (let’s call it that instead of tax evasion, which it seems it was) in your own lifetime, and now think it’s unfair because college costs more and therefore if YOU did it, your family would reap a bigger reward?
Golly. Your problem is your neighbor who only paid 7K for college? Methinks you have bigger problems than that…
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Wow! I’m still trying to wrap my head around going from an EFC of $78K to only being able to afford $7K for college, yet spending $4K+travel expense (realistic total of both probably around $8K/yr) for sports for the child.
I’m sure you did a great job raising your kids @HankCT . And I truly understand your frustration with the college search process and the expense of college. But I have to assume your frustration is skewing the numbers here and that something has to be missing.
If not, Man, I feel for you. My EFC (as a single parent of 3) is non-existent compared to yours, my two vehicles are 13 and 17 years old, Yet even I can scrape together almost as much as you claim you can for college. Seriously, I can only dream of earning enough money to have an EFC of $78K and I truly feel for you.
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Again, not to beat a dead horse, but … this is a personal decision with individual variables that can’t be known or understood by anyone else. Wouldn’t spend much, if any, time on what others think.
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What an obnoxious post. It wasn’t income shifting, it was not being honest, and our country encourages sole proprietors to do so with a broken tax code. If you give people these loopholes, they will misuse them.
I am entirely against them, and had no control over what my parents did. To this day I tell my father I disagree with him on it.
So what exactly is your problem, again? With my complaint that people who evade taxes by hiding income get an unfair boost in this country? Golly.
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On the sports, I entirely understand your questioning. For us, we saw it as a full year forced social and exercise program. I’d pay for it again 1000 out of 1000 times in a do-over. I’d rather have her borrow some additional money for college than miss out on years of great exercise, experiences, fitness and friends. Think of it like a camp, but a camp where the kids run for 90 minutes 4+ times per week. But I also get that if you can’t afford the seasonal fees, it’s a luxury. That’s our view on it. There is a limit, of course. The person who referenced 25K+ per year was beyond our comfort zone, that is for sure. But if it got them a free ride to college, maybe it paid off. Not sure.
My EFC may have been 68, I don’t remember it exactly, just remember being in shock. And we ended up being able to afford about 15-18K per year out of pocket, but had to cut out a bunch of things to do so. I also had to take some money from our 401K, unfortunately, but only a little.
Now that my second is entering this fall, the amount was halved to 35K (per kid). Meh. As I mentioned above, one of the downsides of living in a very high cost of living area. They look at your income, but not so much your expenses (especially if you have any private loans, which we do, like car loans, or a person loan we used years back for home repairs we needed).
In the end, we are in a good place, and my complaints are more about fairness in the system than our personal situation. Apologies if it sounded any other way.
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Sorry if you took my post to be obnoxious- obviously as child you had no control over financial decisions your parents made. I tried (and obviously failed) to point out the adult flaw in your logic- the tax code is flawed, therefore people take advantage of it. Yup. But we should fund college irrespective of the decisions that parents make- which means government funding, so that your kid and Bill Gates kid pay the same tuition. Which makes MY taxes go up (in a two wage earner household I am likely to pay a disproportionate amount of an increase in taxes than you will) which helps subsidize Bill Gates AND helps subsidize your decision- as wonderful as it was for your family- to have a stay at home parent.
Nope. Not interested. I love paying taxes to help the disadvantaged keep a roof over their head, I love paying taxes to fund better public schools. Really not interested in increasing my taxes so that we subsidize everyone’s kids at the private college of their choice if they have a viable public option available.
Do you understand why your post is so tone deaf about your father? And you claim you’re posting about the fairness in the system?
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there’s a little in all of these posts i agree with - and disagree too. but here’s what i envy - that’s the equity in housing that coastal houses have - much more than fly-over midwest. we bought our house 19 yrs ago - in the 200s - and if we sold it now it’d probably still sell in the the 200s. I envy those who have seen large spikes in equity. –
I do know a family who has spent $30-40K a year on sports for their kids (hockey). Crazy. but they are not expecting any FA.
Hank- i agree wholeheartedly on the benefits of seeing your kids in an activity that they love. As parents, we had so much joy in watching our children do their things and would not give that up in any way looking back. Yes, we could have saved a few more $ per year, but what would have replaced those times? in our midwest area we do not have geography - no lakes, mountains, forests, hills or beaches to easily explore. We have cornfields and sediment control ponds (mud!). Their activities of music, soccer, dance, swimming, tumbling - all became part of their identities and skill sets today - in college and beyond.
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When I saw the $25k per year for a sport, my immediate thought was the sport must be either hockey, or gymnastics. It is easy to spend that much each year (if not more) once your child is competing at a high enough level in either sport.
My friends who have children who are realistic college athletic recruits joke that they’ve already paid for college with athletic training/competition fees, they just spent the money over the 12-15 years before college. Unfortunately, lots of other parents spend just as much money on their child athlete, most of whom won’t be competitive enough to realistically compete at the college level, or play a sport that isn’t a headcount sport which usually means small partial scholarship if you are lucky.
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Ding, ding, ding…you are today’s winner! It was indeed gymnastics 
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pardon me, I am only asking out of ignorance. How does one spend 25, or 40K, on hockey or gymastics? Is this because they have a personal $100 an hour trainer or something?
Around here, hockey is pretty big. In my own town, Chris Drury (and his brothers) all went to a prep HS (they actually did not have a lot of money but their parents made it a priority). They did all sorts of regional teams and such to be in the best youth programs. I can tell you they didn’t pay even a fraction of the equivalent of 25K per year. And we live in one of the most expensive areas in the country. So you are talking about $1000+ per month?
Is it because they are traveling to hotels every weekend and spending $300 per weeks on travel and hotels and maybe flights? I’m just trying to understand, since I have a kid who plays in the top level premier soccer program (that is 3k per year, for a Fall Winter and Spring season), another $300 for uniforms (I know hockey gear can be as much as a few thousand, but you can also get it cheaper, I used to play), and then we pay an additional $500 for a futsal league, and so on. Knowing ice time is more expensive than indoor soccer time, I assume the annual league fees for hockey would be more as well, but 20K more?
We do not pay for additional 1 on 1 private personal training, as that would just be way too expensive for us. Some people do, but usually in short bursts.
Gymnastics seems in many ways even less expensive. Our kids did gymnastics when young, was fairly affordable. So again assuming its either massive travel, or personal 1 on 1?
Thanks!
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I have that envy myself. As someone who bought a house in an expensive part of CT, we bought our home in the peak of 2006. 15 years later, after dropping about 100K into it over 15 years in things like roofing, bathroom, new boiler, new siding, painting, and other maintenance, it’s now worth 10% less today than the price we paid 15 years ago. An absolutely terrible investment in that regard, in an area where it was supposed to be a great one. The result is that after all of this time, we only have about 30% equity in the home.
We know people who chose a different town, closer to NYC, and their house doubled in value over the same period. Real estate breaks in strange ways sometimes. I also envy those who have had large spikes in equity, especially since more than half the time it may be random chance. We did our research, but the world changed after 2006.
I will say that one thing we do talk about is that high cost of living with high expenses isn’t all bad. There is a silver lining, and it’s as you said: Part of it is equity, and part of it is retirement.
Person A lives in a low cost of living area, let’s say they make 100K per year, and their expenses are 90K per year. So they are able to save 10% (10K). They buy a house at 150K, and in 20 years its worth 300K.
Person B has the same situation, they can save 10%, but they live in a higher cost area, let’s say they make 150K, and bills for the same sized house and standard of living are 135K. They are able to save 15K per year. They buy a house at 200K, and 20 years later its worth 400K.
Both people have lived similar lives in their respective places, but the higher cost of living folks end up with 100K more in equity and an additional 5*20 in savings. Even if you take the 5K per year in extra savings away, they still have that equity.
The flip side is taxation. The latter family pays a higher tax rate, gets hurt more on the FAFSA, and with new laws like Trump’s 10K deduction limit (our mortgage interest alone was over 10K, now we don’t get that all, and don’t get any other deductions we used to), they lose out on deductions they used to get that those perhaps in the Midwest aren’t penalized with.
No real moral to this story, other than it can get complex!
The families I know with kids in Tier 1/AAA hockey pay 30k+/yr. Club and travel fees add up quickly. There are only a handful of teams in our state at that level which means lots of travel expenses getting to other states to play competitively. The kids also do showcases in Canada where they stay and play for a couple of weeks and get groomed for media appearances, etc. Many families also have private skating coaches. One family skipped the whole club scene and sent their kid to hockey boarding school.
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We also spent at least 20-30k/ yr on D’s niche sport (fencing). Costs mainly went to travel for competitions (e.g., to some far flung European cities we’ve never even heard of for the Cadet circuit!), share with the cost of coaches when traveling then private lessons at least 3x a week make up the bulk of the cost.
We also thought we could have just saved it and spent for college. But in the end she’ll enter this fall as a recruited athlete at a lower ranked Div 1 school (school ranking is in the Top 30) so I guess in this uncertain environment it worked out ok.
(Note that we just saw this thread pop up on CC and as International parents planning to send their DD to the US this fall, we can’t help but read through the comments. We know as Internationals we are expected full pay! So I was really interested to know how many families do “fully pay.”)
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The travel is a big part of it. I know you said you didn’t count that, but I think most families count it.
I have friends who have/had their children in travel sports. Several travel(ed) at least once a month, and in the summer might travel up to three weekends a month. Families with small children who have to be taken on the trips might spend much more than $300/trip. In some cities, two nights in a hotel can itself be $300 or more. And some sports charge parents additional participation fees for each out-of-town event.
When my daughter was in gymnastics, it started off approximately $200-$300/month for a once or twice a week slot. As your child gets more into it and wants more days, the price increases. As you start traveling for out-of-town events, that’s more. And as you know, there’s always more outfits, more equipment for home practice, extra training. While I enjoyed her participation in it as a small child, I almost had to hide my glee when she told me she wanted to stop - and we hadn’t even gotten to the travel part that much yet. She’s told me that when school starts back in the fall, she wants to try out for either track or baseball. That will be great. Daily practice and FREE! I like that better.
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My kids went to grade school with a girl who played TWO expensive sports. She was on a travel lacrosse team where I know the fee was $8k per season without travel. The team played only tournaments, mostly in the summer, and she’d fly to the city, stay (and practice) about 3-4 days and then play the tournaments for the weekend. If the player traveled alone, there was an extra chaperone fee for picking them up at the airport, cost of food, transportation for the weekend. In the winter she skied on a team in Vail and I’m sure it cost about $10k, not including the condo her parents owned, driving her there every weekend, food, equipment, medical training, etc. She went to college in Texas, which has neither a ski team nor a lacrosse team. And she wasn’t a top athlete on either team.
Her brother was a top tennis player and he didn’t get there by hitting balls against the garage door.
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Yeah, this is a valid point. We also live in the Northeast, where things are closer together. So we tend to play in leagues where the tournaments and season games are mostly between CT, Mass, NY and NJ. Most things are within a 2-3 hour drive, so often some families will stay over in a hotel for a weekend even, or, just slog back and forth to save the hotel money. We’ve done both. I tend not to count the food since we need to eat anyway, but yeah, it is a little more expensive. Gas too.
There are other tournaments that we do have to travel further for, showcase type things. But usually - and us parents agree - you can get a similar level of competition by going to a tourney in New Jersey, or Boston, or Rhode Island, than going to the same level of tournament but in Iowa. So we limit the longer trip ones. If one lives in an area where everything is further apart, I can see this being more expensive.
We also try to go as a family at times, and see museums or landmarks or beaches in our free time, so for those I think of it as a family vacation, with some soccer games mixed in.
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The US median household income was about $69k in 2019, so if a “low cost of living area” requires living expenses of $90k per year, that makes the majority of US household “poor”. But it is more likely that a “low cost of living area” requires considerably less than $90k of living expenses per year.
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Breakdown of gymnastics fees, no it is not inexpensive and your child’s experience as a young child taking a casual gymnastics class has as much equivalence to high level gymnastics training as a child playing rocket on the playground has to do with being an astronaut for NASA.
High level gymnastics is training 20-35 hours per week (usually around 28-30 hours depending on gym). Training fees at the highest level of JO gymnastics easily ranges from $700-$1000 per month. On a hourly basis, not exceptionally expensive but those are a lot of hours. And if you are a high level gymnast - you are probably at Level 9/10 for 5-8 years before college.
Gymnastics equipment is highly specialized and exceptionally expensive. As is the insurance club gymnastics has to carry. This is a very difficult and potentially dangerous sport - so equipment needs to be maintained and replaced to ensure most safety.
Basic training hours cost
$8-12k a year
The you get into Competition Fees. Assume 6-8 competition (not including post-season).
$1k- $1.5k per year
Coaches fees (these are fees paid for your specific coach, to help offset the cost for them to coach you at competition (travel, lodging, food, etc). This does include post-season competition.
$1k - $1.5k per year
Competitive Leotard/Warm Ups. These usually change every 2 years, depending on the club.
Competition Leotard $400-$600 per leotard (this in not a typo)
Competition Warm Ups $200-$300
High level gymnasts also have training leos for daily wear. Those are much cheaper, usually $60-90 per leotard. As a high-level gymnast is training 4-6 days per week at 4-6 hours per training session - you need at least 5 training leotards to rotate. At the low end, that is $300 every 6-12 months just on training leotards, and really plain ones at that. High end, would be almost $500 just on training leotards that are going to wear quickly if you only have 5 to rotate through.
Training leotards - $300 - $750 per year
High level gymnasts go though personal equipment quite quickly as well. Most gymnasts use ‘grips’ on bars, when practicing/doing high level bar routines 6-12 hours a week, you will be going through grips every 6-8 weeks. Always also should have back up pair, as if your grips get a rip, you need to throw out immediately. $65 per pair, so $130 every 2 months, or $780 per year for grips
Tiger paws often used for vaulting/floor routines. Usually can get through a year with 2-3 pairs. Cost $100-$200 per year
Prewrap and athletic tape usually costs $25-50 a month, giving a cost of
$300- 600 per year.
Gymnasts need to purchase choreography and music for their floor routines. Again there is a range of what this will cost, but that is a expense most gymnasts will have at least every two years, some get a new routine every year.
Music - $75-$100
Choreography - $500 - $1.5k, depending on who choreographs the routine.
If you have been adding as this has gone along, you can see that without having yet added in the cost of traveling to a single competition, a Level 9 or Level 10 gymnast has already spent
$14k - $19.5k. (again, not a typo)
Most high level gymnasts/club do 6-8 competitions a year. Usually 2-3 are air travel (not enough Level 10s to have gymnasts compete locally). Gymnast meet schedules not released until usually 1-2 weeks before competition so while families know what weekends are scheduled, they may not know what flights will work until they know when their athlete is competing. Flights are therefor pricier than most would think. Meets held nationwide: Texas, Florida, Nevada, California, Illinois, Indiana are some of the states that gymnasts have to fly to to compete.
At least $1-2k per air travel competition. Assuming 2-3 travel meets per year:
$2-6k on travel meets (this is assuming 1 gymnast, 1 family member traveling)
Your gymnast is truly talented, so not only do they do well at their State meet, they qualify to regionals. Yup, another travel meet somewhere in your 5-6 state region which may necesitate another flight - add
$1-2k on Regionals
Wow - your gymnast placed in the top 7 AA at Regionals in her age group. She is going to Nationals…another flight, this time her hotel is paid for, but if you and your family want to see her compete -
$2-3k for Nationals
Per year $5- $11k on travel/competition/family
We haven’t even started to look at medical/physical therapy costs in the above calculations. Training 20-30 hours a week is hard on the body, assume at least 1-2 appts with your ortho specialist a year (even if it is just a sprain, your kid probably need a boot, a brace or some sort of appliance to safely heal while still conditioning).
Physical/massage therapy to deal with strained ligaments, rolled ankles, tweaks, etc. Better hope you can meet your deductible easily if your child gets injured (which is a when, not if). Ooh, Cryo recovery just started up near you, yes anything that might speed muscle recovery! $50 a pop, once a week not covered by insurance…would love to be able to do it more, but hey you do what you can.
Many high level gymnasts also have Chiropractor in the rotation…keep those alignments good.
It is a huge family commitment of time, energy and money. Lots and lots of money.
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Well @beebee3 did a better job of breaking down gymnastics costs than I ever could! And the family I was referencing had two high-level gymnasts in the family. Big time money commitment to say the least.
And, while I didn’t mean to derail the thread by bringing up sports, my bigger point was that when we report assets/cash/investments on fafsa and profile, it feels like institutional aid is more likely to be given to the spenders rather than the savers. (Assuming two families where all else is equal other than spending/saving habits)
It could be gymnastics, cars, vacations, house, whatever.
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