Peer reputation skews rankings? OK-here are USNWR rankings w/ peer assessment removed

College Search & Selection
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<p>Mix of graduate and undergraduate alumni:
[List</a> of University of Wisconsin Madison people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_University_of_Wisconsin–Madison_people]List”>List of University of Wisconsin–Madison people - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>UG alumni include:
4 Nobel laureates
Frederick Jackson Turner, historian
John Muir, naturalist
Frank Lloyd Wright, architect (attended)
Charles Lindberg, aviator
Eudora Welty, author
William S. Harley, founder of Harley Davidson
Arthur Nielsen, founder of AC Nielsen (ratings)
Bud Selig, Commissioner of Major League Baseball
Carol Bartz, CEO of Yahoo!</p>

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<p>By your perverse logic, BYU/UNebraska @ Lincoln > All Ivies (beside Harvard)/Best National Universities/Best LACs.</p>

<p>[Most</a> Popular Colleges: National Universities - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/best-colleges/2009/01/26/most-popular-colleges-national-universities.html]Most”>http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/best-colleges/2009/01/26/most-popular-colleges-national-universities.html)</p>

<p>I can’t take your ■■■■■■■■ seriously because your reasoning is so flawed.</p>

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<p>well so is the claim that a higher acceptance rate = worse education quality
i hope that besides most music students, no one would agree that Curtis >> Harvard right?</p>

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<p>TK, I would add Charlie Trotter to the list of illustrious Wisconsin alums. Charlie Trotters, along with Tomas Keller and a couple other chefs, reinvented American gastronomy. Admittedly, American gastronomy is not yet at the level of French, German or Italian gastronomy, but it is definitely improving thanks to the legacy of such genius chefs as Trotter and Keller. Unfortunately, Trotter has not been as active in his cooking in recent years, causing his restaurant in Chicago to decline in quality. Whereas it served near *** Michelin quality cuisine in the late 90s and early 2000s, his restaurant now serves marginal ** meals. But in his prime, he truly was exceptional.</p>

<p>[Charlie</a> Trotter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Trotter]Charlie”>Charlie Trotter - Wikipedia)</p>

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<p>Not since one of his meals gave all of his guests the trots :)</p>

<p>(Sorry, could not resist!)</p>

<p>Anyhow … about that yield list kwu cites. It does appear that there is some correlation buried in it between yield and prestige (or something like it), but only if you look at peer schools. The Ivies not only are clustered up near the top, but the order pretty much follows their ranking. Then there is a big big drop down to schools like Chicago, Rice, Hopkins, etc. In between the Ivies and Chicago is NYU. Is it more prestigious than Chicago, Rice, Hopkins? Is is “better”? Doubtful. It is not quite as selective so it is in a slightly different peer group.</p>

<p>And as I said above, although prestige surely affects yield, other factors are tangled in such as cost, climate, crime rates, etc. The Hopkins yield may be depressed not at all because of quality perceptions, but because it is perceived as a “hard” school in a high crime area.</p>

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<p>First of all, income difference is only one of a number of goals that lead students to attend college, and it’s probably not a very good one for measuring the quality of an undergrad experience. (It’s also not a very good sole criterion for measuring the quality of one’s life). There are many ways of accessing income, some of which require no higher education at all.</p>

<p>A college experience can help students to develop informed decision-making skills, confidence, communication skills, leadership abilities, a community service ethic, aesthetic appreciations that enhance the enjoyment of the rest of life, etc.</p>

<p>One outcome that is strongly influenced by the quality of the undergrad peer group is a student’s goals and aspirations. In “How College Affects Students”, a widely-referenced 30-year meta-analysis of college student outcomes research, Pascarella and Terenzini found that the college peer influence had the single greatest impact on student goals and aspirations - moreso than faculty, coursework, or any other institutional characteristics.</p>

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<p>The logic is “so flawed” and “perverse” only if you don’t assume the most basic premise for comparison: i.e. you can only compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.</p>

<p>The idea is that you can only compare comparable (“peer” and similar types of) institutions. As far as I know, Harvard and BYU/UNebraska @ Lincoln are neither peers nor similar types. Not to mention, religiously affiliated schools (BYU) and state flagships (UNebraska @ Lincoln) tend to have relatively high yields which belie their (lack of) prestige and selectivity.</p>

<p>This seems so elementary that I didn’t think that I needed to spell it out (especially for the CC audience), but apparently I do for some people. </p>

<p>Now you could argue that the ivies and the top LACs are not comparable institutions. However, I was trying to give LACs the benefit of the doubt…</p>

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<p>A higher acceptance rate (compared with peer institutions) is only a piece of the (prestige and selectivity) puzzle. In the case of Cornell, the fact that it has the highest acceptance rate in the Ivy League is only part of the reason why it is the worst member. Cornell’s lowest yield rate and SATs further contribute to its cellar-dwelling status.</p>

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<p>I hope not. Not only aren’t Curtis and Harvard peer institutions but also they have fundamentally different mission statements and admissions policies. The former primarily selects for artistic talent, the latter academic talent. Thus they are not comparable types.</p>

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<p>prod,
Re your earlier comments on U Wisconsin, over the years that I have been on CC, I have read and discussed and researched and learned about U Wisconsin. My evolved view is that, among public universities, it’s an underrated college. </p>

<p>I limit my comments to the public university group as U Wisconsin’s size is a major limitation in any comparison with the top privates. At 30,000+ undergrads, the size impacts many areas which make comparisons difficult (class sizes, financial resources, grad rates, etc.). The research data that barrons and others have posted is interesting and reflects a school that is a major player in this arena. That’s not a big deal to me, but it is to some. Like its closest peer (U Michigan), it’s not close to the Top 20 privates in selectivity, but there are subsets of students at each that are very talented. </p>

<p>The refreshing difference for U Wisconsin is that the place and the people are decidedly more humble than their counterparts to the East as they don’t constantly seek validation and preen and bleat how they’re as good as the non-HYP Ivies. Based on what I look for in colleges (great academics, great social life, and great athletic life), U Wisconsin today probably has the next best package in the Midwest after Notre Dame. </p>

<p>So, take a closer look. It’s not for most students looking for a super elite/super prestigious place, but it probably deserves a higher regard than you are giving it.</p>

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oh what an honor to be considered “legit” and “quite talented” through hawkette’s eyes! :rolleyes:</p>

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<p>No harm intended. Is my restatement more palatable?</p>

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<p>^ Yeah, I guess… but probably not to your favorite Michigan “partisans”…they’ll take exception to your new statement that “no harm [was] intended”. ;)</p>

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<p>Haha-you’re probably right. </p>

<p>Heck, my favorite U Michigan partisans will probably decry the idea that they are a very close peer to U Wisconsin. LOL.</p>

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<p>“^^^ Most of UW’s “elite” leaders and ideas are derived from its graduate divisions and faculty. But we’re talking about undergraduate institutions here…” </p>

<p>Ignorance is bliss, eh? UW also ties with Harvard as the UNDERGRAD school for producing the most S&P 500 CEOs. </p>

<p>"A school better known for its consumption of beer, has begun to gain national attention as a training ground for top CEOs. An article in BusinessWeek magazine reported that UW-Madison is tied for first place with Harvard in terms of producing CEOs who head Standard & Poors 500 Index companies.</p>

<p>The BusinessWeek article noted that todays CEOs are less likely than predecessors to be company loyalists or military veterans, and tend to stem from large public universities.</p>

<p>Wisconsin and Harvard each produced 14 CEOs at S&P 500 companies from their undergraduate alumni. Outside of S&P 500 companies, more than 1,050 UW-Madison alumni serve as a CEO of companies and other organizations of all sizes, and nearly 16,000 hold an executive management position.</p>

<p>Why do Wisconsin alumni seem apt to rise to the role of leader? “Lots of schools talk about leadership,” says Michael M. Knetter, dean of the UW-Madison School of Business, “Wisconsin graduates are doing it.”</p>

<p>According to Knetter, “One important reason is that the university has great inputs. Although it draws students from all over the world, many of our students come from in state and Wisconsin’s K-12 education system is consistently ranked as one of the best in the nation."</p>

<p>Add numerous award-winning filmmakers, scientists, authors, journalists and so on and you have both depth and breadth of success. From Lee Raymond (former Exxon CEO for many years) to Michael Mann (Miami Vice, etc).</p>

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<p>It would be quite shocking to some to see the top 500 or so from each class at Berkeley, UVA, UCLA, Michigan, UNC, Wisconsin, Texas, Illinois, etc. They stand as peers to the midpoint student at any of the USNWR top 10 Unis or Top 10 LACs, and due to their approx. top 10% standing at their unis have the full attention and mentoring focus of the stellar faculties at those Research Publics.</p>

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<p>Wow, dem’s really ARE fightin’ words on cc. What about THE Ohio State University? Any others in the midwest with competitive D1 sports teams? (somehow the color blue comes to mind) :D</p>

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<p>These two statements are not logically incompatible. Didn’t you take any logic courses at U Wisconsin??</p>

<p>Keep in mind that Wisconsin has over 4x the number of undergraduate alumni as Harvard. You didn’t really think that UW is equivalent to an ivy, let alone Harvard, did you??</p>

<p>At the end of the day, UW is still going to look up at Northwestern and Michigan in Big Ten country (not to mention Chicago, Notre Dame, etc.) as well as the entire Ivy League back east…</p>

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<p>What would you know about “Big Ten Country,” prodigalson? It’s all flyover to you, I’m sure.</p>

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<p>Yeah, but I thought I’d throw you a bone with the Northwestern shout out…</p>

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<p>"At the end of the day, UW is still going to look up at Northwestern and Michigan in Big Ten country (not to mention Chicago, Notre Dame, etc.) as well as the entire Ivy League back east… "</p>

<p>Nah, why bother looking up to schools with fewer grads getting Nobel’s and fewer members of the National Academies? Ivies? Chicago? Ofcourse. ND? No way.</p>