Penn among the Ivies

<p>I cobbled these opinions together from various sources. They focus primarily on the undergraduate programs of the various Ivies. I think there is a ring of truth in them.</p>

<p>For undergraduate education:</p>

<p>Tier I - Yale, Princeton, Brown, Dartmouth;
Tier II - Harvard, Penn, Columbia, Cornell </p>

<p>Yale - Extraordinary academics (though skewed away from the hard sciences). Provides luminaries on the faculty combined with a stunning array of intellectual offerings (formal courses as well as unique extra-curriculars like Grand Strategy). Reigns supreme in the fine arts, offers great leadership and service opportunities. Greatest undergrad focus [tutoring, mentoring, residential college housing, funding for ECs] with the possible exception of Dartmouth. Market leading endowment performance has Yale rolling in dough. The brand name is second to only to one. It feels closer to the centers of American power than perhaps all the other top schools (Good Shepherd anyone?). Often rates rather low in "student happiness" surveys. Major issue - old New Haven, which is still depressing after all these years </p>

<p>Princeton - Phenomenal academics, probably the most balanced of the Ivies across all fields of study. World class in arts, humanities, social sciences, hard sciences AND engineering. Only Stanford can surpass Princeton among the elite private schools in this regard. Pound for pound it's the best academically for undergraduates of all the Ivies with the largest endowment for undergraduate academics and a pristine idyllic campus. Major issue - Old Nassau is elite and it FEELS elite --> Is Princeton too cultured & manicured? Does it simply have too much money?? </p>

<p>Brown - The place for independent students who are brave (or foolish enough) to design their own programs of study; very good academics especially in the humanities; new arts link with RISD may effectively place Brown in the same league as Yale; stellar and very self-selecting student body and lots of momentum because of strong University leadership. And then there's the aura of celebrity which hangs over the campus like a golden halo. Major issue - lack of research-heavy grad schools means Brown will increasingly NOT be perceived as a top school by rankings that favor engrg & medical focused universities (an issue also hurting Princeton). </p>

<p>Dartmouth - Weakest in a pure academic sense among the Ivies (due to its limited graduate programs), but still one of the very best in the nation for a classic liberal arts education. The focus on undergrads is rivaled perhaps only by Yale and the demanding rigor of its course work, especially in math, science and engineering is almost unparalleled among its peers (think more like MIT). Mentoring from senior faculty is reputedly the best in the Ivies, and lots of resources ($$$) are committed to the undergraduates and to undergraduate research. Does a fantastic job of creating a very strong bond among and with its students -- it really is a "tribe". Very self-selecting student body. Off-campus and international programs the best in the Ivies. Major issue - those long and cold and long and cold New England winters.</p>

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<p>Harvard - #1 brand. #1 endowment. And Harvard manages both aggressively. Overall, Harvard has more - more money, more Nobelists, more books, more museums, more labs, more of everything. The school is loaded with superstar faculty (Nobels, National Academy members, etc). Harvard College has the highest yield and one of the lowest admit rates; it may have more students that are really off the charts than any other school in America. The place is Institutional with a capital I. Major Issue - Harvard clearly favors its graduate schools, and the abandoned undergrads don't complain too much because they count themselves lucky to even be there. A low-level and pervasive unhappiness though can be sensed among many undergraduates, as most believe their peers are getting a better education and having more fun elsewhere.</p>

<p>Penn - Academically, great breadth across many disciplines. Unrivalled in undergrad business and nursing, top notch in arts and social sciences. Maybe the weakest among the research-oriented Ivy in the hard sciences. Increasingly prominent in humanities ECs (Kelly Writers House, Civics House, Humanities Forum, etc.) to counter pre-professional Wharton-itis. Lots of academic freedom and perhaps the most flexible after Brown; Penn works hard to ensure cross-disciplinary work. Students can take classes at all Penn's schools (except for Med), benefiting from what may be the second best group of graduate schools among the Ivies. Work hard, party hard ethos. Major Issue - Sheer size and "grittiness" mars the Ivy experience and an anemic job market in Philadelphia (no incentives to stay local unlike Harvard/Cambridge or Stanford/Palo Alto). </p>

<p>Columbia - Blessed with a long legacy and unrivalled NYC location. Any professor who wants to live in NYC most likely wants to teach at Columbia. That creates great resources for students. Unique Core Curriculum defines the academic experience, and Columbia is stellar in many areas. One of the very best in arts and social sciences, very strong in sciences too. Famously political and activist, though jobs on Wall Street seem to carry the day with students. Advising, facilities and access to popular courses draw chronic complaints from the students. Campus expansion may help, although there's never enough space in Manhattan. Major Issue - Does Columbia rely too much on the lure of NYC for students and faculty alike? </p>

<p>Cornell - Big Red!!! Awesome academics can't be touched in engineering and the hard sciences. Unrivalled and unique offerings (agriculture school, labor relations, hotel mgmt) within the Ivies. Don't pooh pooh the admit rate - Cornell is the biggest among the best and - more importantly - it has a slightly different mission that the other places, namely it's the land grant school for NY state. It's a major research center even for undergrads. Another idyllic - perhaps isolated - locale for college and the life of the mind. Student diversity varies tremendously between the undergraduate schools (there are seven). And the academic programs are very structured, (aka, rigid). Major issue - Immense academic pressure at a competitive place (read grind), and those bitter winters high abve Cayuga's waters.</p>

<p>WOW!!!!!! What a THIEF you are!!!!!! </p>

<p>You have the audacity to completely copy a post I made, in its entirety may I add - and take credit for it. What a pathetic person you are!!!!! </p>

<p>If this was real life you'd be fired for plagiarism and then sued for stealing. </p>

<p>Since it's an Internet thread, I'll take this as a compliment for the research I have done and perspective that I have developed.</p>

<p>Penn number 5 in in USNWR rankings</p>

<p>number 1 in internet feuds!</p>

<p>(but congrats to the first(and second?) authors, its a fresh look. yeah the funny thing is that i have a huntsman friend here who says her friends at harvard are fairly quirky and really arent having as much fun. although i read this pulitzer prizer on 'the rise of theodore roosevelt' (Harv alum), and those blue blooded dudes in the porcillian clubs and what not, have sheitloads of fun. (those houses own like millions upon millions of dollars to be spent on exorbitant recreational activities, and were not talking about doing a dimebag over the weekend either)</p>

<p>well, while that is quite interesting (and not necessarily inaccurate, i don't feel it really defines what Penn <em>is</em> in the grand, cosmic sense.</p>

<p>I will attempt to elucidate what makes Penn a better school than Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, etc tomorrow.</p>

<p><a href="http://fuhankypanky.blogspot.com/2007/11/vituperative-vituperations.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://fuhankypanky.blogspot.com/2007/11/vituperative-vituperations.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Hahaha.</p>

<p>I think what that post does is conveniently group the ivies into two similar groups, a more liberal-arts college one and a more large university one. How one defines 'better' in this sense is completely subjective, I for one would most likely have been miserable at some bucolic liberal arts college.</p>

<p>Penn "weakest in research in the hard sciences"? Not in NIH funding it is. Huge plus for those interested in biology/ medical science is proximity to med school and cancer research centers. Bioengineering outstanding too, again, with interaction/grants with the hospitals right on campus.</p>

<p>Such life sciences needs to be separated from hard sciences like physics, chem, etc.</p>

<p>What does it all mean?</p>

<p>i believe that the original post meant the life sciences to be included with more 'hard science' (and whether bio should be lumped in with physics and chem depends entirely on who you ask). If one includes the life sciences, one can easily make a case that penn is actually the STRONGEST of the ives in those areas, simply because it is the only ivy where the medical school and undergrad campuses are contiguous (though at yale they're very close together). Why does this matter? Because half of all of Penn's faculty belong to Penn Med (this is a trend that holds true at a lot of schools with a research-oriented med school), meaning one has the broadest possible access to research opportunities and faculty members at an elite med school.</p>

<p>I chose to apply to Penn specifically because of its commitment to research. The VAGELOS Program in Molecular Life Science is heavily focused on the research aspect of Biochemistry. </p>

<p>Plus, the Center for Undergraduate Research and Fellowships (CURF) promotes undergraduate research opportunities.</p>

<p>Thankfully, I got into Penn. I can't wait to reap the benefits of Penn's wonderful research opportunities.</p>

<p>To answer the questions re sciences in the OP (since I wrote it), my intention was to highlight Penn's relative weaknesses in physics, chemistry and geology (among other hard sciences). This status is based on NIH and other federal funding levels, US News ranking, Academic Analytics ranking of faculty productivity, faculty memberships in science bodies [eg, National Academies, etc]. Overall in the hard sciences, the leaders are Stanford, Harvard, CalTech, MIT, Berkeley. The next tier includes Princeton (espc in physics and chemistry), Cornell and the other top engineering schools.</p>

<p>In three other categories - biological sciences, materials sciences and nanotechnology - Penn is absolutely superb. Relative to the Ivies in the biological sciences the ranking is Harvard, Penn then Yale. In materials science, it's Penn and Cornell. In nano, Penn is arguably the top although Harvard is making a mammoth investment in this area (and in engineering in general starting off with allocating $1 bn to the "new" engineering school's endowment). </p>

<p>But in the classic hard sciences, Penn is unfortunately behind H, P, Cornell and balanced somewhat by Columbia and Yale.</p>