<p>Here is a link from Playbill.com about a new program that is being done by Penn State. Exciting!</p>
<p>Looks like a cool idea! Looks like this is an annual program that will continue in the future??</p>
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PSU is regarded as one of the top 5 musical theatre professional training programs in the country.
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<p>I didn't know this even though my son is a theatre (tech) minor there! :o Thanks for posting it.</p>
<p>What are the top 5 programs?</p>
<p>Devsey, oh my, you are opening the proverbial can o' worms when you ask that. Various people have various ideas as to which programs are the "top," but the bottom line is that there is really no way to accurately measure something like that. How would you do it? By the number of graduates who come out and go directly to Broadway? By the number of graduates who can make a living as a working actor? See what I mean? Certainly, there are a number of schools that are widely recognized as being the best known for their strong training programs. But an actual ranking? It is, in my view, impossible.</p>
<p>Thanks for your thoughts. That is what I thought. How can you compare PSU in the middle of a cornfield to Roosevelt in downtown Chicago?</p>
<p>That's a good point, but then again, if there weren't rankings based on someting, no matter how arbitrary, we wouldn't be here on cc, would we? :)</p>
<p>NMR is absolutely correct. There are no official, or even respected unofficial, rankings for MT programs.</p>
<p>
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PSU is regarded as one of the top 5 musical theatre professional training programs in the country.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I have never heard of this before and wonder the source as there are no rankings of MT programs. This is nothing against PSU's program. I mean I think they have a great program and my D got in and would have been happy to have attended. I'd have said this no matter which school was being discussed in this way. </p>
<p>There are no rankings of which schools are best. What is best is the best fit for what you want to do. There are certain schools that are more well known than others. That doesn't necessarily equate with which are "best". And there are certain schools that are more selective than others. Again, selectivity is not a direct correlation with best either. When I think of MT programs, I think of general groupings that are not ordered within the groupings, as to more well known or more selective programs. Sort of like little piles. </p>
<p>Hereshoping, I didn't realize you have a son involved in theater or at Penn State. Cool. </p>
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that's a good point, but then again, if there weren't rankings based on someting, no matter how arbitrary, we wouldn't be here on cc, would we?
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<p>I can't relate to this. For one thing, I came to CC over 4 1/2 years ago when my first child was starting to explore colleges as she began her junior year of high school. I learned then and have continued to learn over the years, lots about the schools and the process of college admissions. I also enjoyed and continue to enjoy having a group of people to share and learn from and give and get support from who were going through the same process and stage of life as myself and my children. I was never ever interested in rankings. I had never even heard of college rankings until I came to CC, where yes of course, there are SOME who are interested in that. My own kids were never aware of rankings or where the schools on their lists ranked. They didn't care and neither did I. Once, I bought US News and World Report out of curiousity after all the talk I read of rankings on CC. But my kids didn't pick their schools with regard to ranking, and had no clue where they ranked. For instance, my oldest child, when deciding which school to attend once her acceptances came, narrowed it down to certain favorites and she preferred two of her acceptance schools over a certain Ivy League school she was admitted to and took that school off the list for final revisits. She preferred some schools ranked lower. I only know this because I eventually looked that up given the chatter about rankings here and how she wasn't into that scene whatsoever. So, I never read CC due to any interest in rankings and still don't. This is even after going through training to become a college counselor. I still don't deal with rankings and I guide many students with college selection and the admission process. I discuss selectivity and their chances of admission. For BFA programs, there is the academic selectivity of the school itself and then there are certain schools that are more artistically selective and/or more well known than others, but these are not in some ranked order. I think we all know roughly which schools are well known (again not necessarily better) and which are harder to get into artistically speaking). But a ranking? I don't know of any that exists. I have no idea where the #5 for PSU came about. I'd love to see the source (I read the reference to the top five in the linked article, however). In any case, it is a topic that is often asked about on this forum periodically. Even IF there was a ranking, I can't imagine picking a school that way. To me, picking a school is about how well the school matches up with your personal criteria and preferences, and your qualifications in terms of admissions.</p>
<p>Here I post on another forum just to please you, alwaysamom, and you're still not happy!! :(</p>
<p>soozievt: cc is all about rankings--nice try though. ;)</p>
<p>HH: rankings may be important to some posters on CC as I have seen over the years (it is where I even heard of rankings in the first place and how some really care about that and it was so foreign from my own family's experience). But I KNOW that rankings is not what ALL posters care about. I also do not believe as you stated, that "CC is ALL about rankings." For me, and for many I have met on CC, CC has been a wealth of information about the college selection and admissions process, a sharing of experiences, support, and friendship of those going through a common process. I have not been interested in any of the topics on rankings. If you look at the many many threads and forums on CC, lots do not deal with rankings. In fact, most of the MT Forum doesn't. Yes, there are well known and/or more selective programs. But the issue of rankings or their importance, is NOT at the forefront of EVERY poster's interest in participating on CC. Is it for you? You tend to post primarily in the Parent Cafe, which is not only NOT about rankings, but isn't even about college.</p>
<p>I don't perceive AlwaysAMom's post as not being happy but simply disagreeing. There IS no official or unofficial rankings of MT Programs. She was stating a fact. There are well known so called "top programs" in terms of being renown and/or highly selective to get into. There is no ranking for MT college programs, however. Do you know of one?</p>
<p>There are LOTS of posters and posts on CC about colleges and experiences with college admissions. Most do not deal with rankings, though some do. In the Parent Cafe, where almost all of your posts are, the contributions do not deal with college at all. I think there are a slew of helpful posters sharing about the college process who are not focused on rankings. CC is surely a LOT MORE than a site about college rankings. I have been on here for over 4 1/2 years and it is rare that anything I read or anything I post has to do with rankings. That's just me. However, it is true of a lot of members I have come to know on CC as well. Do those obssessed with rankings read or participate on CC? and are there posts that discuss rankings? Surely. I don't think that is the bulk of CC posts or members' interests. But I will speak just for myself. It is not mine. My own kids never read about rankings (talking regular colleges, not MT as there is no ranking for MT schools).</p>
<p>soozievt: I'm not talking about what you read or post. I'm referring to the fact that this website's homepage deals first and foremost with the question of rankings (see "Ivy Guaranteed Admission Program"). What you may or may not believe, read, or post is rather irrelevant, isn't it? The purpose of cc is to get kids into colleges which are the best "fit," as we all know by now; and this best "fit" includes rankings of "best" academic departments, "best" (most rigorous) academics, and many, many other "best" categories.</p>
<p>As for theatre rankings, as I said in my first post on this thread, I had never heard of rankings for theatre, either; mainly because I didn't and do not care enough to find out, as this is just my son's minor, not major subject. The fact that I stated this in my first post meant that I was not posting here to a. claim that there are theatre rankings, b. state that PSU is one of the best theatre schools.</p>
<p>I am assuming from the article posted in the OP that PLAYBILL has their own sort of unofficial ranking of "professional theatre programs." What that is or how they came up with this, I do not know. Nor do I even care enough to find out.</p>
<p>As for alwaysamom--this is sort of a private joke between her and me, as she has questioned me several times as to why I don't post on college threads.</p>
<p>Hereshoping, I disagree. I sure didn't come onto this board to find out about rankings. I came here to try to learn as much as I could about the whole college admissions process vis a vis MT. In the process, sure, I learned that there are some programs that are better-known than others, and some that have more "prestige" than others. But I have yet to see a credible list (done by objective sources) that even attempts to rank musical theater programs by quality. I have seen books that either "recommend" or "highly recommend" various programs in dance, theater and acting, but that's it. Maybe for <em>you</em> CC is "all about" rankings. But it sure isn't for me. It's about information and community.</p>
<p>I'm sure you are right that cc about different things for different people. However, to say that rankings are not what cc is about is disingenuous. Look at the homepage--it's about ranking, chances, ivy admissions, help for getting into the best schools, etc.</p>
<p>I'm happy it's not about rankings for you; in fact it's not about rankings for me (my son applied to ONE school---the one he is at) after doing no college search whatsoever. However, cc is about rankings, first and foremost.</p>
<p>That's my opinion. Of course, we are all free do disagree! Have a nice day!</p>
<p>HH, I know you were not talking about me personally. I simply shared my personal experience as I can't claim as to why others read or participate on CC though in my observations, a majority of posts do not discuss rankings, though there are some that do. </p>
<p>As far as CC's "mission" or "purpose"....it is not about rankings either. The fact that you mention there is an Ivy Guaranteed College Counseling Package, doesn't imply that the site is about rankings. It so happens that a great many clientele are seeking highly selective college admissions. That is not so odd. Some very qualified candidates want to go to some very challenging and selective schools. That doesn't necessarily follow that they or the site cares about rankings. For instance, I have two kids who are excellent students. One of mine only wanted to apply to BFA schools which is its own process (and I learned a great deal initially on CC about that ahead of the time she actually started her process). But my other kid did not care one bit about rankings, has never even read a list of rankings, couldn't even tell you where her own college ranked, could not relate to the posts of students on CC who are obssessed with rankings (there are some indeed), but who wanted to go to a very challenging selective school in general. Where each school ranked mattered not. Like I said, she preferred some schools on her list over an Ivy school to which she was admitted and was chosen as a scholar to, in fact. She cared about fit with her preferences only. But within that context, ONE of her college preferences was to be in a challenging learning environment with other students who were equally motivated and the coursework challenging. Often this means more selective colleges, not to say you can't do well in a less challenging learning environment. Such students, however, who seek very selective colleges, are not doing so due to prestige or rankings. They simply want a college that suits their level of learning and motivation. Where each school ranks in that grouping matters not. My daughter ended up choosing Brown because it fit so many things she was looking for in a college, and prestige was never one of them. As far as challenge, she did want a selective challenging environment, just like when she picked HS classes, she was only content to take the hardest classes as she didn't like easy classes. But she had other criteria in picking a school from wanting a ski team, to wanting an architecture major in a liberal arts setting, to size, location, etc. Prestige was never a factor in her choosing schools.</p>
<p>Back to CC.....CC for one thing is run by college counselors. There is a great demand for counseling for those seeking elite colleges and so that is one "niche" of their clientele. However, as a college counselor myself, I can tell you that I have had and still continue to work with students who have quite low academic qualifications and would never be considered for more selective colleges academically. So, those families also use college counselors to assist with their college selection and admissions process and also read and participate on CC. </p>
<p>Besides college counseling, CC provides a wealth of resources...articles, free Ask the Dean column, and information about the college admissions process. It also provides a free discussion board which deals with a wide range of college related topics (and even non related topics that you post about in the Cafe). The Ivy League is not the only topic at all on these forums. There is a niche of people who are seeking elite colleges and in many cases, they are excellent students and that makes sense. Are there posters who are obssessed with prestige? Sure thing. In fact, I learned so much reading here that such an attitude even exists as it is not the way in my community or with my own kids. I have seen students post on CC who have a college list that contains all 8 Ivy league schools (which are SO different) and then tack on their state U. So, yes, there are some who care only about rankings. But CC is not ALL about rankings (a simple perusal of the forums would reveal that) and not every poster here reads/participates with an interest in rankings at all. People discuss all sorts of things...paying for college, college visits, SATs, college searches, essays, and on and on. CC is clearly NOT all about rankings. For those seeking elite college admissions because they are excellent students for which such schools are appropriate, it doesn't then follow that the reason is about rankings. Surely wasn't for my kids or a lot of kids I know. Maybe for some. But not ALL as you stated. That is not why most read CC, in my opinion. Some, perhaps.</p>
<p>The home page to CC says the following:</p>
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Welcome to the best source of college information on the Web! Here you'll find hundreds of pages of articles about choosing a college, getting into the college you want, how to pay for it, and much more. You'll also find professional college consulting services, and the Web's busiest discussion community related to college admissions!
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</p>
<p>That is what CC is about.</p>
<p>Everything you say is true, soozievt, however, I feel most people use rankings as a starting point in choosing colleges.</p>
<p>For example, say I wanted to start a search for my younger son. Say I heard from a guidance counselor that in her opinion a liberal arts college would be a good choice for him. I go to the web and plug "liberal arts colleges" in google. What comes up? USNews and World Report 2007 Rankings for liberal arts colleges!</p>
<p>I would certainly hate to plow through the College Board College Handbook without any idea as to ranking!</p>
<p>Most people use the rankings as a starting point to determine where a kid fits in gpa and sat and then work down to area of study, etc. If someone wants "snow," like my younger son (!), I wouldn't just look arbitrarily at every single college that has the most snow, would I? Wouldn't that be a waste of time?</p>
<p>No, most people use the rankings to find where their kid fits in terms of gpa and sat at schools which have a snowy climate, and then work from there to other characteristics the kid may want in a college.</p>
<p>I don't think "ranking" is a dirty word: it just makes college selection more efficient. In that way, cc is all about ranking.</p>
<p>I guess I see it differently. I've been through two college searches with my own kids and numerous college searches for clients. I have never even looked at college rankings, nor do I even own a copy. I never went about it that way. I've taken their college criteria and preferences, along with their "stats" and looked for colleges that matched those in a range of selectivity (reach, match, safety) relative to the student. Rankings are NOT the same as GPA/SAT, etc. Rankings are ratings of colleges numerically by places like US News. The rankings do not mean, necessarily that school #1 is the hardest to get into, school #2 next hardest, etc. One must examine the admit rate, the range of SAT scores of admitted students, the expected rigor of HS courseload, the avg. GPA of admitted students, the rank/percentile of admitted students and then individual preferences such as possible major and related offerings, availability of one's extracurricular interests, size, location, distance from home, cost, aid available, social environment, and so on and so forth. Who needs a list of rankings to do that? One can start with any college guide book such as those put out by Fiske or Princeton Review. My older D used those and went from there. Rankings were not necessary to consult and never were. I have never discussed rankings with my clients but rather search for schools that match their needs, preferences and interests and their stats/qualifications. </p>
<p>I don't understand your contention that you would hate to plow through a college handbook without an idea as to ranking. I don't even know where the schools ranked on my D's list and neither does she. She could care less. I don't think we are alone in that viewpoint. I understand some may care about rankings, but I don't think CC is ALL about rankings, no. You say most start with rankings and nobody I know does. There obviously are people who do from what you say and yes, I have seen some folks on CC who care about rankings. Nobody I personally know does. Rankings also never has come up even once with any client of mine, either. I don't get how you say if you don't start with rankings, you'd be arbitrarily looking at every single college. A person must start with a list of criteria and preferences. This is what I ask my clients to provide me and I ask probing questions to get at those preferences. Then, one must examine the stats of admitted students and the selectivity rate. Armed with that information, I certainly COULD go through a college guidebook and find schools. In fact, my older D did JUST that and came up with 30 schools in a range of reach/match/safety and then narrowed the list to ten to visit and then applied to 8. She has never seen a college ranking of the schools on her list. Her schools were grouped by reach, match, safety relative to her qualifications, as they should be for anyone.</p>
<p>My younger D did not start with a college guidebook as there is just a finite number of MT BFA programs and she wanted the East Coast (not including the south) and added U of Michigan which is Mid West. Her list was almost ready made as she had heard of MT schools from older peers. We did buy three performing arts/theater college guidebooks too. She then researched each school in depth and came up with a list to visit and apply to. She applied to 8 BFA schools. She was aware of them all being selective artistically but that some have relatively more selective applicant pools and more well known than others. She had preferences of what she wanted in a BFA school....for example, she preferred some academics in a more challenging setting if possible. She didn't want a cut program. And so on. There were no rankings to even consult. Some programs are more well known than others, but who knows how they'd rank in numerical order. It didn't matter! </p>
<p>So, what I am saying is that not all people go about finding and selecting colleges by starting with rankings. We didn't. My clients don't and many people I have met on CC do not. My nieces haven't either. One even attends your son's school, Penn State. I gather some do. I disagree that ALL do, as you assert. One doesn't need rankings to pick schools. They need school profiles as a starting point and the college guidebooks are a great way to start for the regular applicant. A performing arts college guide is a good starting point for a theater applicant. In the case of MT applicants, CC would even be a great place to start, LOL.</p>
<p>If you asked me where my girls' schools, Brown and NYU, ranked in US News and World Report, I couldn't tell you. :D If you asked me how those schools fit their personal list of college criteria, I COULD tell you. If you asked me the range of qualifications/stats of admitted students to those universities, I could also tell you. Students should not pick schools randomly. They should pick schools that match their criteria and also where their stats qualify to be admitted either as a reach, match, or safety. What I DO sometimes see on CC, particularly on the MT forum or who contact me for college counseling, are people who pick colleges that offer good MT, with no regard to whether they have the qualifications to get in. That is something ALL applicants must consider to find schools in their range, with a balance of reach, match, safety. No need to see rankings. There IS a need to examine the stats needed for admissions in relation to one's own stats, however.</p>
<p>soozievt: I think we're talking about the same thing, only I think when you hear the word "ranking" you think I mean "prestige." By talking about rankings, I am not talking about prestige, necessarily; although for many people, that may be the case.</p>
<p>Btw, Fiske and Princeton Review or any such similar books are rankings, just by their choice of what schools to include!!</p>
<p>Also, I didn't say all people start with rankings, as you stated; I said most people do (three times, as a matter of fact). :)</p>
<p>Rankings are the numerical order and ratings by such places like US News and World Report. For me, I don't have ANY need to know where a school ranks in order to select colleges. Looking at school profiles in terms of their admit rates, stats of admitted students, etc. is necessary in order to find school where you have a chance to be admitted. There is no need to start with or consult rankings, however. I would not need to start with US News and World Report and have never consulted the list of rankings when doing college searches for clients, of which I have done many. College directories are just fine. Searching for specific academic programs is another way. For instance, I have done searches for clients of Sports Management, Interior Design, Creative Writing, Ancient History, Theater, Musical theater and so on. I look at their stats in relation to the stats of admitted students to a college. I don't see why I need to know which school ranked first, second or third by USNews. My own kids and I hope the kids I work with, look for colleges that really match what they want in a school. For a top student, if she wants a very selective challenging school, she still doesn't need to know about rankings, but just about finding selective schools that match her credentials and interests. Wanting a challenging school is not the same as caring about rankings or prestige. It is about fit. So, no, I still don't see a need to know where a school ranks by USNews, but simply need a directory of colleges and be armed with criteria for selection and stats of the student. You referred to using rankings such as USNews as a way of finding colleges. I suppose one could do that. But to then jump to saying those on CC are all about rankings, I don't agree. I wouldn't select schools that way. I'd just research them. A directory is a good starting point to find schools that offer what you want and examine the basic stats needed. That is not the same as consulting rankings which orders schools from top to bottom by criteria that USNews uses.</p>
<p>In any case, as conversations go, one thing leads to another. I realize the article in the original post mentioned a ranking and we are talking about that concept and I am responding to your assertion that CC is about rankings. But I do want to say that it is cool that PSU's MT program is putting on some new musicals. That is great for students. My D's school does that as well and I think others do too. Those are great opportunities in addition to working on established musicals.</p>
<p>Okay, your daughters cared only about fit. Yet they began with Fiske and PR, which by definition are rankings of colleges. Third and second tier schools are not included in these books. Did your daughters consider Plymouth State College, Central Connecticut State College or Delaware Valley College? I don't think so. They began with a pre-selected list of schools--based on rank of some sort, mainly rank of what are most commonly thought of as the most highly regarded schools in the country.</p>
<p>When you have a client with 950 SAT, and a 2.5 gpa do you look at Fiske or Princeton Review, soozievt? Of course not. You already have in your own mind what tier of school (whether you call it tier or not is besides the point) this kid would be a candidate for. To say you don't have an internalized ranking in your own mind at this point is disingenuous. You would have to , or you wouldn't be a very competent counselor; in fact, you'd be clueless.</p>