Penn State UP vs Lehigh IBE Program

Going back and forth between these two options. Plan is to major in computer engineering at Penn State or Lehigh IBE 5 year program dual major which would result in a Computer Engineering BS and a BS in Integrated Business and Engineering
Lehigh’s sticker price is twice that of Penn State. While cost is important, also trying to consider the ROI. Would not consider Lehigh for engineering over Penn State however, the IBE program is making Lehigh look more attractive.

Thoughts on either program and their outcomes?

Two things come immediately to mind. First, double the price…ouch. Second, business classes/degrees can actually hurt your chance to land a job if you take them before you’ve ever been in the workforce. I can’t help but believe the added cost at Lehigh won’t pencil (and I’m a big Lehigh fan).

The cost is alone is probably the number one argument for choosing Penn State. Although Lehigh is a great school and is ranked #44, Penn State ranks higher for engineering.

Does anyone here have experience with either school or their engineering grads?

Do you have any specific questions about Penn State? I’m a ChemE junior there.

@bodangles How easy is it to get research opportunities as a freshman, sophomore? Are your professors approachable and available? Are the research opportunities easy to get and if so do most students participate in research? How involved can a student get in research? Are students permitted to use the labs/ machine shops outside of research? At Lehigh engineering students have liberal access to the engineering labs and facilities.
Have you had any problems getting into classes?
Do you recommend using AP credits (Calc AB/BC, Chem, Physics Mech, Physics E&M)?
Sorry for all the questions. Asked about all this via phone with Penn State but was told that incoming students will meet with their advisors over the summer to go over all of this. Would like to have answers to some of this now to help with the decision on which school to chose.

How easy is it to get research opportunities as a freshman, sophomore? – I didn’t try until junior year, but I know people who started sophomore year or who did something on campus during the summer after freshman year. Check out this page for ideas if you haven’t already: http://www.eecs.psu.edu/students/undergraduate/Research-Opportunities.aspx

Are your professors approachable and available? – If you make an effort, go to office hours, and let them get to know you, yes.

Are the research opportunities easy to get and if so do most students participate in research? – I would say most students do not participate in research. The people who tend to participate are either aiming for grad school, Schreyer scholars (we’re required to), or just very very interested in their field. I only had to ask one professor and he said yes (fall of junior year), so I don’t think the positions are super competitive but you may or may not get the first position you ask about. Chances are better if you get to know the professor first.

How involved can a student get in research? – I am not quite sure what this means so I’ll just give my own experience. I joined a lab (computational research, not like going in to do experiments) fall semester of junior year. Now, in the spring, I am helping the professor write an article to submit to a journal (on which I believe I’ll be fifth author because this topic has never been published before and there were several students before me who helped develop the theory). This article will then be the core of my thesis next semester. So I’m not doing trivial stuff or anything. You won’t just be washing beakers or writing down numbers someone else dictates to you. At least not after you learn the ropes in that lab.

Are students permitted to use the labs/ machine shops outside of research? – Not sure since ChemE’s don’t really machine anything. Computer labs (in each commons area, in the library, in honors housing, and in some departments) are generally open. That might be a question to ask of your department by phone / email. The general counselor at NSO won’t know.

Have you had any problems getting into classes? – No, but I schedule early so I’m not the most representative sample. Many of the lower-level classes will be offered in multiple sections, so you may not always get your preferred time, but you will likely get a seat. Labs can fill up fast, however.

Do you recommend using AP credits (Calc AB/BC, Chem, Physics Mech, Physics E&M)? – Try a practice final for the classes (usually available online if you google “penn state math 140 final” etc – will bring up the teacher’s website, or a department-run test bank, or something). If you can do it pretty well, consider skipping the class. If it’s been a while since you earned those AP credits (ex. I took AP Chem junior year), consider retaking (I didn’t want to jump into organic chemistry without a refresher) unless your recommended academic plan says, for instance, that’s the only chem you’ll ever take, in which case you probably don’t really need it and can skip it. You might want to skip the chem labs either way. That’s four hours of your week you’d never get back.

I have experience with both, and in that experience PSU grads seem to start in engineering and Lehigh grads seem to start in business. Both have decent careers but the PSU grads see more options and better pay. The issue is that Lehigh doesn’t have the resources to give grads the specializations that employers tend to want in engineers, they instead give the broad theoretical and business base that employers want in select business roles related to engineering.

PSU EE grad here, CE was in my old department last I checked, so I’ll give my answers alongside @bodangles:

Not very. There are decent club opportunities, but most faculty seemed reluctant to accept anyone before their junior year - remember that until that point you probably haven’t had any actual engineering classes, so you generally lack the skills their research requires!

Generally yes, but it varies. The general trend (and I have now seen this at several schools) is that their approachability and availability depend on their opinion on your dedication as a student. Someone who is putting in minimal effort will likely have a hard time getting a professor outside of posted office hours, someone who is engaged (smartly) may find that the “door is always open”.

I would not say “easy” but nor would I say “hard”, and most students do NOT participate in research because most are going to industry where research experience is relatively poorly valued. I have helped to give out research opportunities, and I would say that most people made their own opportunities - I have never gone wrong picking people with strong grads, clear interests, and a focus on the research area, and the few I have taken with weak grades and vague ambitions have always flaked off after a few months. So work hard and you should have no problem.

  1. Ask a professor working on something that interests you.
  2. Participate in engineering student groups that interest you, faculty often come to them for research assistants.
  3. Watch the department job postings.

For some, yes. Some labs are run by the department and are controlled mostly to keep expensive equipment from walking out - there may be operating hours but no one cares what you are working on so long as you don’t take or damage anything.

For others, no. Most labs are run by specific research groups using funds from outside sources, and they are not open to students not in the group.

None. Although I have heard lots of complaints about getting courses at preferred times or outside the major.

Chem, yes - you won’t be using it anyway. Physics Mech is probably okay too, you won’t need it much. For the others, I am hesitant to say yes. I AP’d out of a few of those and took the courses anyway, and I am glad I did - we covered a lot more, and to a lot more rigor than I had in high school. And considering how many people struggle with college engineering courses I would be hesitant to skimp on the preparation just to get out earlier. Maybe skip Calc 1 if you can, but not Calc 2.

Did you/your child get into Schreyer? Because that makes a difference too.
And how would you pay for the cost differential - can you afford it with belt-tightening, or would it impact your retirement fubdd/woukd have to borrow for your child?

Just realized I read this wrong. The answer should be that you can get involved up to the point where you are wasting resources or neglecting too many other things. You can start with a small role and wind up leading your own investigation. So long as you are competent and not hurting anyone, why would a professor stop you from going further?

Thank you! Your comments are very helpful. Did not apply to Schreyer, which was a mistake but it is possible to apply after freshman year.

Paying the difference between Lehigh and Penn State is doable but it would be tight. An IBE degree from Lehigh is probably not worth $250K-$300K. How big is the potential ROI? Most likely not enough for justify.

Area of interest in research is specific so approaching a professor and showing genuine interest is good advice.

Will definitely look online for the final exams.

Been looking online and on Penn State’s website for College of Engineering Career Outcomes report but have only been coming up with this one for Smeal :

https://careerconnections.smeal.psu.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2016/11/Smeal-UGE-Employment-Stats-Class-of-2015-u.pdf

Does anyone know where to find a similar report for the College of Engineering?

Again, thank you for taking the time to read and answer these long post. You have been very helpful.

Throwing Bucknell into the mix. It ends up being about the same price as Lehigh which is significantly higher than Penn State. This decision should be a no-brainer.