Penn, UVA, or Duke?

<p>Hey, I recently got into the College at Penn as a Ben Franklin Scholar, Virginia as an Echols Scholar, and Duke. I'll be visiting all three schools next week, but I just got the BFS letter today and am now wondering if I even have to visit! I think Penn will get the nod, but I am looking for some input on how it measures up to the other two schools. </p>

<p>I really love math, and will probably end up doing something mathematical in business, so Wharton would be a plus. I don't know much about any of the math departments, though. Also, I would like to know the networking benefits of each.</p>

<p>I realize UVA is probably not quite on the same level academically as the other two schools, but I used to live in Virginia and have always thought about going there. I guess my questions about UVA would concern how much of a step down, if at all, it is from a Penn or a Duke. </p>

<p>Thanks for the help!</p>

<p>Hi Brekels,</p>

<p>First, congratulations! There really is no wrong choice at this point.</p>

<p>Second, we might be able to offer you a better comparison if you explain to us exactly what being a Ben Franklin scholar means.</p>

<p>Sorry about that, I did it in the UVA forum when I made a similar post and thought I did it here too.</p>

<p>The BFS program offers research opportunities/money, advising, and special seminar classes. </p>

<p>From the site:</p>

<p>Benjamin Franklin Scholars are undergraduates committed to performing at the highest level of intellectualism. By participating in Benjamin Franklin Seminars and by pursuing research projects of their own creation, Benjamin Franklin Scholars, with the help of an advising team, plan and participate in a total education that is both exceptionally challenging and rewarding.</p>

<p>The BFS program offers expert individual advising customized to students' particular interests. Advisors encourage students to explore exciting research opportunities that emerge from a changing and demanding collection of Benjamin Franklin Seminars designed and taught by professors who are leaders in their fields. Individual advising with the BFS professional staff brings scholarly inquiry and challenging courses together into an educational whole.</p>

<p>Opportunities, advice and encouragement for independent research draw students into the world of scholarship. By working individually with members of the faculty, students experience the excitement of exploring new intellectual territory. Benjamin Franklin Scholars often pursue interdisciplinary independent study projects that emerge from the dynamic relationships they have with advisors and faculty. Many students are authors or co-authors of published papers that provide genuine contributions to creating new knowledge. Some students also apply for BFS summer research grants or for other grants administered by the BFS parent organization, the Center for Undergraduate Research and Fellowships.</p>

<p>it'd be better, brekels, if you could just summarize in two sentences what the BFS thing is, instead of pasting directly from the site. generally, when asking for help, you want to make it easy for other people to help you. </p>

<p>as to ur question, wharton is miles away from the other penn schools in terms academic caliber. sure, you can take a few wharton classes as a CAS student, but in the end, you're never going to be the best business student in penn, since there will always be wharton students who are better than you. wouldn't you much rather be one of the better students, if not the best, in a specific subject area in your whole school?</p>

<p>Okay, the BFS thing is a smaller deal than I'd initially thought.</p>

<p>At top notch private schools like Duke and Penn, research opportunities abound regardless, and the extra classes are more likely to get in the way than anything else. It's a nice honor to have - congratulations! - but I doubt it will seriously help your undergraduate experience at Penn.</p>

<hr>

<p>With that said, Penn is still a very hard school to turn down.</p>

<p>At this point it's a question of fit. If you want to be a Wharton student, it's a ton of work but is very worthwhile. If you'd rather be a CAS student (say, a math major), I don't know much.</p>

<p>I know Duke math majors are always in very high demand across all fields - but I assume Penn math majors, are, too... at least, I'd assume they would be. (I suppose it's possible that the Wharton kids suck up all the good jobs, but I've never heard that said - it's just a possibility.)</p>

<p>chlor, I did exactly that just above what I pasted from the site</p>

<p>Mike, thanks for the input. Actually, I had the same feelings about the BFS program when I got my letter. Great honor, not as great in reality. </p>

<p>You seem pretty knowledgable about Duke, so I hope you don't mind if I heap another question on you. At Penn, you can take courses at Wharton as an undergrad in CAS. This was very appealing to me, since I am not ready to commit to business, but would want to have those resources available. I have also read that the difference between undergrad business at Penn/Wharton and most other schools is that they are able to offer more in depth, specific-subject courses than the more general upper level courses elsewhere (assuming that the intro classes are essentially the same). I realize this is a pretty big generalization, but I think there could still be a lot of truth to it. What do you know about the Duke undergrad business experience, and how do you think the above statement would apply to the Duke/Penn question? </p>

<p>Thanks much</p>

<p>Hi brekels,</p>

<p>If you go with the business route, you have four options, three at Penn and one at Duke:</p>

<p>1.) A business degree from Penn. Technically this will be a BS in Economics, but it's understood that you will be taking classes in specific areas such as branding, marketing, etc.</p>

<p>2.) A generally useful degree from Penn, with application to fields in business. This might be an AB in Economics - a more traditional Economics background, full of macro and micro and metrics and whatnot. Alternatively, you could do math, or policy, or any of a number of other business-relevant fields. (Notice that I did not say business-related; there are many fields which are not DESIGNED to have anything to do with business but are nonetheless useful.)</p>

<p>3.) A hybrid of 1 and 2 - be a math major while taking plenty of classes at Wharton, for example.</p>

<p>4.) Come to Duke and study a business-relevant field. Economics here at Duke - I'm a major - is not geared towards a specific career. Instead, it is geared towards teaching you basic principles of resource management and quantification. Very useful business skills - you will see that by far, most of our students are employed in areas like finance, consulting, and management. We also have strong math, public policy, and engineering departments from which the business world recruits heavily. (Yes, I did say engineering - they like people who understand numbers and quantities, even if they've never studied money per se.)</p>

<hr>

<p>They are all good options, but if I had to put them in order, I would rank them 4, 1, 2, 3.</p>

<p>Here's my logic:
2>3 because frankly taking classes with Wharton kids is going to be killer. These kids study this sort of thing all day long, and the classes in Wharton are dramatically grade-deflated relative to CAS classes. They'll have a field day with you.</p>

<p>1>2 - and this one I am very unsure of - because when push comes to shove, the job recruiters know you're in the second tier at Penn when it comes to business if you're not a Wharton kid. Now, CAS preserves many more options - but the point is that from a business-job related perspective, Wharton will clearly open more doors.</p>

<p>Why do I believe 4 is your best option? I believe that 4 is better than 1 because you are not yet sure you're going into business, and it preserves options for you. Furthermore, I'm an advocate of a strong general education. Nobody knows how the business world is going to change over the next ten years - but the core economic principles that govern the world are going to stay constant. This is why businessmen all got caught up in the dot-com boom while economists (think Greenspan's "irrational exuberance") were hesitant at first, then just confused, and finally vindicated. An economics degree will serve you well in the business world ("seeing the big picture"), while preserving other options. For the record, I'm an economics major on my way to medical school.</p>

<p>So, then, why 4 over 2? Because for practical job considerations, Duke econ majors (or policy majors or whatever) are the top of their class, while Penn's CAS kids are the second tier at Penn.</p>

<hr>

<p>I hope I've communicated that I think 4, 1, and 2 are all very close, while I believe that 3 is an inferior option. In order to confirm this, though, you'll want to talk to some CAS kids at Penn - I might have a completely wrong understanding of how CAS kids are graded in Wharton classes.</p>

<hr>

<p>Finally, I want to emphasize that the hands-on training from Wharton - while valuable - is not quite as valuable as it might seem.</p>

<p>Goldman Sachs, etc all recruit heavily from Duke Econ majors, yes, but also from Duke engineers.</p>

<p>Why would finance groups recruit engineers?</p>

<p>Here's the key: They're going to give you all the tangible skills you need anyway. Consulting groups will basically run you through their own mini-business school for two months up in Vermont (I believe, for Mercer) anyway, no matter what you learned in college.</p>

<p>They don't care if you learned any practical skills in college - in fact, they prefer that you not, so that they don't have to "un-train" you before retraining you in their own systems!</p>

<p>This is why investment units love our electrical engineers - because our EE's have proven that they can think quantitatively. They might not have any tangible skills, but employers love 'em anyway.</p>

<hr>

<p>So here's my sum recommendation:</p>

<p>Come to Duke. If you choose to go into business, you will be very competitive. Wharton kids will be more competitive, don't get me wrong, but the majority of Duke kids go into business jobs after school and excel at them. I think Duke is better than CAS for this option. I won't lie to you - Wharton kids are at an advantage here. But I don't think it's an insurmountable one, as the engineers example demonstrates.</p>

<p>If you choose not to go into business, then ... well, Wharton will have been a wonderful education in something you don't want to do. Duke and CAS are both wonderful here.</p>

<p>So you see, for business, W>D>>CAS. But For non-business, D=CAS>>W. Add them up, and you get that Duke comes out on top. Still, it's a very close call either way.</p>

<p>As before, congratulations on a wonderful dilemma.</p>

<p>Why must one major in a business-related field to go into business? There are plenty of liberal arts majors taking jobs with banks and consulting firms.</p>

<p>Hence my phrase "business-relevant" rather than "business-related". I used the different phrases intentionally.</p>

<p>WOW, Thank you so much! That post alone was 10x the help I ever could've expected. </p>

<p>I think that if I were to go to Penn, I would try to transfer into Wharton if I thought I would do something in business after my first or second year. I will definitely explore the options you highlighted wherever I go. I'm visiting around next weekend and I'll let you know what I decide. Thanks again.</p>

<p>You're lucky. You asked a Duke econ major whose best friend in high school went to Wharton. =)</p>

<p>BDM - methinks we should get the admissions folks to take you on the road :)</p>

<p>I wish. Talking about Duke all day would be a great job! (They did make me a tour guide, though... that's the next best thing, right?)</p>

<p>Who decides what is business-relevant and what isn't? Most majors would fit that bill.</p>

<p>Businesses - the kind of business that Wharton will train you for - tend to be looking for very specific kinds of skills: anything that involves heavy quantitative analysis. This varies considerably, and yes, many majors do fit this bill. But some don't.</p>

<p>bluedevilmike, do you know if Duke has accelerated 5-year programs in medicine (so I wouldn't have to apply to medical school and risk not getting accepted) and become a doctor after 5-years.</p>

<p>UltimateFrisbee, I don't think any school has an accelerated 5-year program in medicine.</p>

<p>Yeah, Duke absolutely does not have such a program, and I am willing to be money that the shortest possible combined program would be 7 years.</p>

<p>The University of Chicago has a program that grants you an acceptance to medical school - but it still takes eight years.</p>

<p>In any case, Duke does not have any such continuation program.</p>

<p>With that said, the risk of applying to medical school as a Duke premed and not getting in anywhere is very low.</p>