<p>and also my fault on the echol's scholar thing. i didn't realize it wasn't the most prestigious, but it's still very prestigious nonetheless.</p>
<p>also, i don't think penn is overranked. sure, there are other private schools that are just as good as penn out there, but penn's grad/med school placement is great and it obviously has wharton.</p>
<p>I'm not in denial about anything. And yes, Penn is clearly overranked. It is not as good as Stanford, MIT, or Caltech, and it is probably about even with about 5-10 other universities. Believe me - I know that Penn is a very good school. I'm not knocking it.</p>
<p>jeff scholar would be more prestigious than echol...</p>
<p>also, i'm being 100% honest and unbiased here when I say that I don't believe for half a second that penn is "overall better" than uva. They're peer schools. Just because Penn has been revitalized and become very popular in the last 10 or so years doesn't make it "better." </p>
<p>Also, I feel that everyone makes a huge deal about wharton. Yes its the best program in the country for business. But to say that the school deserves to be "so much better" than a bunch of other schools because of 1 program is ridiculous.</p>
<p>also, i don't want to come off as saying uva is the best school in the world. I don't think it is. But I do think penn is very over rated.</p>
<p>Of Course the Jefferson Scholars are more prestigious than the Echols Scholars - they get a full ride. Academically, they're no better off, but they generally had more significant extracurricular involvement in high school.</p>
<p>just visit them all.. see for yourself</p>
<p>I know - i merely mention it because someone said that echols was the best you could get - and it isn't. academically i don't even think echols scholars have it that great. sure they get to register classes early - but i've never not gotten into a class i've wanted. it may take a little bit more luck with isis, but you usually can get into any class you want.</p>
<p>Yea, it's a program that has its benefits, but it's not going to change your experience at UVA too much. If you're more of a partier it might kinda kill your buzz living in echols dorms ( :/ ) but I think of it as more of an honor.</p>
<p>i am echols and i got a full ride :) and i got tons of extracurriculars...for jefferson u gotta be nominated by your school and most schools dont even do that...</p>
<p>you have to ask your guidance counsellor to be recommended - because mostly its just schools that send people to uva who know about the scholarship. and your state needs alumni support - because they pay for your scholarship.</p>
<p>alright, to begin, saying wharton is overrated is absurd. wharton is unparalleled in terms of job recruitment. every major firm in every business field recruits at wharton, and more atypical prospects like hedge funds often show up too. many wharton graduates don't have to shell out another 100,000+ to attend grad school and can get a great job (70,000+) right out of undergrad. the same career recruiters look to wharton students for valuable internship opportunities that few other schools can offer students. even if you consider prestige irrelevant, wharton is a name brand, and it enjoys widespread international respect and recognition... which has its perks. not to mention the extensive alumni network and its potential to help advance your career... finally, most of the other top business schools (nyu stern, for example) are leaders in only one field - in stern's case, finance. at wharton, almost every concentration is ranked in the top 3, if not #1. you really can't go wrong.</p>
<p>alright, on the claim of penn being a peer school to uva - on acceptance rate alone, penn is much more selective. uva accepted 36% of applicants this year, whereas penn accepted about 17%... not to mention wharton's acceptance is about 13%. penn's average sat score is about 100 points higher than uva's, and even the average sat score of those who apply to penn (including those not accepted) is higher than uva's average sat for accepted students. </p>
<p>obviously sat scores and acceptance rates on their own aren't adequate factors by which to judge a school. so you could also consider that penn is more diverse - particularly because of its high number of international students. it's quite arguable that philadelphia is more enriching and vibrant than charlottesville, with far more opportunities for employment, entertainment, and connecting with a diverse community. academically, again, penn allows students to take classes and explore dual and custom degree options across schools - students can build a foundation in the arts and sciences and supplement their education with wharton classes. FINALLY, penn's endowment is more than double uva's, which allows the university to provide better (and sometimes more innovative) resources to its students.</p>
<p>now take what i just said with a grain of salt: i could go on all day, but my point is this - penn and uva are hardly peer schools... not because penn is necessarily better AS A WHOLE (because how do you really measure better anyway?), but because the two are so different. in many respects, penn is the winner hands down. but uva has plenty of advantages too... what i just presented was one side of the argument, and it really comes down to what the OP wants out of the college experience. </p>
<p>so, it's best to visit both schools if possible, but no one should claim penn is "overrated". each year, penn increases its number of applicants, quality of students, and overall prestige. uva is a great school too - but a few people on this threat like it so much that they're being single-minded. it's really hard to discount many of penn's strengths over uva.</p>
<p>first, i never said wharton was overrated, i said penn was overrated. to claim that an entire school is as good as its 1 hallmark program is ridiculous. thats why i say penn is overrated. the only thing people mention when they hear penn is wharton - and the op isn't even in at wharton, hes in at the college. what about the 75% of people at penn who never take a class at wharton? im not bashing wharton - infact i believe i said its the best program of its kind.</p>
<p>what do acceptance rates have to do with anything? chicago accepts 41% of its applicants. is chicago a ****ty school? Also, like i said, penns acceptance rate is only so low because it gets many more applications. Being a public school (and its obnoxious application) hurts the amount of applications UVa gets. Also, 88% of penn's first year class is in the top 10% and 85% of uva's first year class was top 10% - i'd say that is comparable. </p>
<p>of course philly is a city and c-ville...isn't. what does that have to do with the quality of the school? you can say that its more diverse (c-ville is pretty diverse) but then you can also argue that penn is in one of the shadiest areas of philly. Getting handed crime data sheets on the tour isn't exactly something to brag about. Also, uva students flood to washington (and nyc, and boston, ect.) for jobs after graduation - which has equal if not better job opportunities than philly.</p>
<p>Penn's endowment is about $1 billion more than uva's. Penn is also bigger than uva. it's per student endowment is $7000 more...don't know where you got double from.</p>
<p>just because a school is different - doesn't make them non-peer institutions.</p>
<p>It was never claimed that Penn is overrated. I was claimed that Penn is overranked. Big difference. I don't think Penn is overrated at all, to be honest.</p>
<p><strong>this post is mainly in response to jags... i agree that penn is overranked in comparison to mit, stanford, and several other schools.</strong></p>
<p>alright, well first of all i read the whole "why does everyone make a big deal about wharton" thing and assumed you were calling it overrated too. also - my mistake on the endowments. there's still more than a 1 billion dollar difference.</p>
<p>since my last post may have come across as conjecture, here are the facts... wharton aside (all from penn and uva's websites/newspapers, us news, the princeton review, the wall street journal... etc). if i were the OP, i would choose penn for the following reasons:</p>
<ul>
<li>uva receieved 16,252 applications this year, while penn received 20,300.</li>
<li>last year, uva admitted a class of 3112. penn admitted about 2400 - penn receieves more applications, yet it admits a smaller freshman class.</li>
<li>uva's student to faculty ratio is 15/1. penn's is 6/1. us news ranks penn #1 for faculty resources and uva #36.</li>
<li>only 7% of penn's classes have 50 students or more compared to uva's 16%.</li>
<li>penn's 25th-75th sat percentile was 1330-1500 in 2004, and uva's was 1230-1430. uva's accepted student sat range was 1270-1490 this year... almost exactly the same as the sat range of penn's applicants, who average an sat of 1370. the average accepted sat was around 1470, so penn's is still about 100 points higher.</li>
<li>penn's "peer assessment score" in us news is 4.5/5, and uva's is 4.3/5. whatever that is.</li>
<li>this year, 86% of uva's admitted students were in the top 10% of their high school class. about 96% of penn's were in the top 10%. </li>
<li>4.7% of uva's enrolled students are internationals. last year, about 17% of penn's freshman class was composed of international students.</li>
<li>penn's alumni giving rate is 40%... uva's is 27%. penn is ranked 7th for alumni contributions, and uva is ranked 30th.</li>
<li>uva is ranked 55th by us news for financial resources. penn is ranked 5th. penn's endowment is 4.5 million dollars, whereas uva's is about 3.2 billion.</li>
<li>in 2006, us news ranked penn 4th and uva 23rd. </li>
<li>in shanghai jiao tong university's (very skewed?) rankings, penn is 15th and uva 101st.</li>
<li>about 40% of penn's freshman class last year was non-white as opposed to 24% of uva's.</li>
<li>not really relevant, but campusdirt.com (student survey/rating website), penn is ranked 35th for social life and uva is ranked 249th. they also have penn much higher for professors and curriculum.(?)</li>
<li>the Kaplan-Newsweek Guide to Colleges ranked penn it's number one "happy to be there" school</li>
<li>the wall street journal, the today show, and the new york times specifically discussed penn in the past few weeks in features about increasingly difficult admissions standards - it is rising in popularity faster than any ivy league school, and will only continue to do so when it starts accepting the common app next year.</li>
<li>penn's yield rate last year was 65%. uva's was about 53%. </li>
<li>uva's website says only 31% of its freshman class is comprised of non-virginia residents... really?</li>
<li>alright i'm tired of these statistics but here's some more stuff: penn's average financial aid award to students is higher. its average starting salary for graduates is higher, especially wharton's. its graduate school placement (and actual graduate schools) are more highly ranked in general. more recruiters for internships and jobs go to penn - not only wharton, but sas as well.</li>
</ul>
<p>so i'm not sure how exactly these two are peer institutions, academically at least. as quick as you are to label dearkonstantine's comments about penn having more "prestige" as "irrelevant," i think all the facts i listed above (many of which are the source of penn's prestige) would be highly relevant to most people choosing between the two schools. once again, uva is a great school - i'm sure it has better food, security, merit aid, and housing than penn, at the very least. and i know its far cheaper. and you're right, philly is not for everyone, and neither is penn. depending on what you're looking for, environmental factors may outweigh its advantages over uva. but as much as you argue against penn and say it's "overrated," i have yet to see one fact proving that uva is in any way an academic peer institution.</p>
<p>(in case anyone is wondering, i have a life - i'm just really bored and in class right now)</p>
<p>i dont get all this hype about a big time program for an undergrad. im a very competitive person, dont get me wrong, but why compete with Wharton students at the undergrad level. as you said Wharton has much more stringent requirements and much stronger caliber students, so why be in the top 40% at Wharton vs. top 10% in McIntire. Kill you competition, keeping in mind UVA is a top 10 undergrad business program, and by being the creme of the crop at your university you'll get into a top-notch grad program--say Wharton!!(as it is top of the line in any desired category) If you go to Wharton undergrad, when grad programs look at you in comparison to your class your just another joe-shmoe nothing special, you cant seperate yourself from the genious next you. </p>
<p>At least this is my thinking regarding ungrads, I love Wharton--but for undergrad? This is just my reasoning, any comments?</p>
<p>yeawhoayea - i get what you mean. i think the most important thing is that you figure out what you want in college and what school will offer you the best experience and go with it, regardless of rank.</p>
<p>liveitout - everyone is entitled to his own opinion, especially one so well supported! Must been a boring class, I'm assuming.</p>
<p>yeah, to each his own. all my classes are incredibly boring and i can't even begin to pay attention - that's how it goes when you're a senior with 2 weeks left of school!</p>
<p>hey guys, i'm glad the tensions cooled down</p>
<p>besides, i'm SO PSYCHED to be at uva and i don't even see how i even got in</p>
<p>uva rules. haha</p>
<p>LiveItOut,</p>
<p>UVa and Penn are totally peer institutions. Peer institutions are clusters of schools where certain types of students tend to apply. Plenty of students who apply to lower Ivies like Penn also apply to top publics like UVa, and many have chosen UVa over Ivies and other top private schools.</p>
<p>You bring up some interesting points, but you cant look at these numbers without seeing them in context. If you read the book College Rankings Exposed, you will see that US News rankings were created with the assumption that Harvard, Yale, and Princeton were the best. So, they use criteria that enforce that. If they added other criteria that are also important to college students (i.e. best buy, financial aid, sports, diversity, and student quality of life), I doubt some of the Top 10/20 schools would remain at the Top.</p>
<p>COMPARING APPLES WITH ORANGES</p>
<p>I'm not a proponent of US News rankings. Why? Because many people often use US News rankings incorrectly to compare apples with oranges privates vs. publics, research universities vs. liberal arts colleges when they are very, very different institutions. For example, you cant compare private and public universities when it comes to alumni contributions. Sure Penn has a higher percentage, but as a private school, its had a culture of alumni giving since its foundation in 1700s. Public schools didnt start depending on private donations until just 10-15 years ago when state governments started cutting back on their annual funding. To build that culture takes time. Yet among publics, UVa tops the Public Ivies w/ 27%, while the average is around 15%. </p>
<p>I find it amusing how people look at geographic diversity when claiming a private school is better than a public one. (Is Berkeley inferior to Georgetown because 95% of its student body comes from California?) Keep in mind that public colleges are required to serve the citizens of their state first, so they cant admit a larger percentage of out-of-state students. </p>
<p>Re. the peer assessment score, Penn has benefited from the halo effect of being in the same league as Harvard, Yale, and Princeton, though the Ivy League is just an athletic conference (and a bad one at that.) The peer assessment score is determined by college presidents who vote on each others institutions. First of all, only 57% of the people who were sent questionnaires responded. Secondly, how is a college president from Montana, South Carolina, and Arizona really that familiar w/ the academic programs at a college in Texas, Virginia, and Pennsylvania? Peer assessment is based more on perception than reality, and many people perceive an Ivy League school to be better though that's not necessarily true. This not to say that Penn is a bad school. In contrast, it's an excellent school. I just find this rating system bogus.</p>
<p>Re. endowments, what is presented is not always the complete picture. Just because a private school has a larger endowment does it mean it has more money than a public school. In general, a school will use part of its endowments yield (more or less equivalent to 5% of its endowment worth) for annual operational costs, scholarships, etc. Sure, Penn has $1 billion more than UVa, but that extra billion dollars only gives Penn $50 million extra to play with, while UVa as a public school gets over $100 million from the state of Virginia a year on top of the money it gets from its endowment. Plus, UVA's $3.2 billion endowment is only the university-wide endowment. Each scholarship and school has its own endowment. For example, Jefferson Scholars has between $100-200 million and the Law School has close to $300 million, and neither figures are included in UVA's $3.2 billion figure.</p>
<p>Yes, UVAs faculty and financial resources are lower, but thats because of the state budget cuts in the last 16 years from 25% government funding in 1990 to a mere 8% today. What amazes me is that UVa has been able to maintain its position and high educational quality despite the vagaries of government funding. Now, that UVa is more independent w/ its Charter Status, is embarking on an ambitious capital campaign, constructing new buildings for classrooms and lab space, and hiring more professors, UVa stats will improve.</p>
<p>Speaking of resources, the University is committed to trying to make a UVa education affordable. The Princeton Review placed UVa as a Top 10 Best Value public college. How many Top Privates are considered Best Values?
<a href="http://www.princetonreview.com/college/research/bestvalue/default.asp%5B/url%5D">http://www.princetonreview.com/college/research/bestvalue/default.asp</a></p>
<p>UVa is also #3 among College Best Values according to Kiplingers.
<a href="http://www.virginia.edu/topnews/releases2006/20060110KiplingerList.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.virginia.edu/topnews/releases2006/20060110KiplingerList.html</a></p>
<p>All this is due to Access UVA, where 7-8% of the incoming class are low-income students getting a full-ride to UVa. </p>
<p>In regards to UVAs student test scores and class rank, the University could easily follow Berkeleys example and use a simple formula that only admits applicants who are in the Top 10%. If you look at the stats of students who are rejected and/or deferred by UVa, many of them are in the Top 10% and have high SAT scores while some of those accepted are not in the Top 10. What UVa does is it looks at each applicant holistically. UVa knows that a high GPA and SAT score dont equate honor, passion, a propensity to self-govern him/herself well, and a desire to better society and contribute to UVAs collegiate community. (Plus, UVa also admits and enrolls a high number of students from Thomas Jefferson High School for Science in Fairfax, VA (over a 100 a year). By virtue of its sheer number, Im sure many of them arent in the Top 10% of their class, but I would argue that someone not in the Top 10% at TJ would easily be Top 10 at another school.)</p>
<p>What I think is a true testament of a UVa education is that The University of Virginia produces just as many successful alums as the top privates - (Did you know that only Harvard, Yale, Princeton, West Point, and Stanford have more Rhodes Scholars than UVa?) - thus fulfilling its purpose laid out by Jefferson to be a stepping stone for regular Americans to succeed and contribute to society.</p>
<p>saving me from responding, thanks globalist. you're so eloquent ;-)</p>