<p>I have a really hard decision to make and it is bugging the heck out of me. I have been accepted to both Duke and Penn and am planning to do pre-med. I know that both have excellent programs in medicine and I can't choose between them. I like them both, even though they are pretty different. Coming from California, I am kind of biased towards Duke because of the environment, but I would really like to experience the city life. And then there is the "Ivy League" status that comes with Penn. I am thinking that Duke has a better community and is probably easier to study at with less distractions, but Penn has so many things to offer and Philly is a great city. Obviously, I can't make up my mind, so can anybody help me out? I would appreciate any insight into the pre-med programs at both and the rates of acceptance into med school. Thanks</p>
<p>i don't know about penn's pre-med environment, but my mom was pre-med at duke and she said it was really competitve and cutthroat to the degree that people wouldn't share notes with you and wouldn't help you with any classwork. she actually discouraged me from going there. but if that kind of environment is good for you, then go for it. only you know how you'll succeed.</p>
<p>My premed friends at Penn are definitely not like that, fwiw...</p>
<p>penn is better than duke in med. standings, basically, with our internationally famous hospital(system) and all.</p>
<p>in terms of undergraduate education, probably very little difference, though Penn probably has the slightest edge in terms of faculty/resources given awesome med prog. atleast you can take a famed wharton class at penn...</p>
<p>however, duke weather/southern girls would probably kick the **** out of penns'...</p>
<p>"penn is better than duke in med. standings, basically, with our internationally famous hospital(system) and all"</p>
<p>The Duke University Medical Center ain't exactly chopped liver either. Both med schools are rated in the top ten, so I would go with wherever you'd want to spend your next four years undergrad.</p>
<p>i didn't imply duke was chopped liver,</p>
<p>maybe you should go learn some english, sophomore</p>
<p>Both Duke and Penn are top schools. I believe that they are both firmly in the second level of elite schools (after HSYPM) and alongside Columbia, Cornell and Chicago. So, overall you can't really go wrong with choosing either institution.</p>
<p>That said, for pre-med education, you should consider the following:</p>
<ul>
<li><p>research/interning opportunities: Penn has a huge medical center which includes (on it's own and immediately nearby) Penn's hospital [one of the top 10-15 in the nation, particularly strong in pediatrics, women's medicine and trauma surgery], Children's Hospital of Philadelphia [the clear #1 in the nation], several other hospitals and clinics, a Veterans Administration Medical Center. </p></li>
<li><p>quality of premed education: Penn is very strong in this regard, with both traditional majors (bio, chemistry, etc), and several unique majors (Biological Basis of Behavior, bioengineering [top 5-7 in the nation], etc.)</p></li>
<li><p>comprehensive advising </p></li>
</ul>
<p>Check both school's sites. They post information on both advising services and med school admissions stats.</p>
<p>Philly offers lots of big city attractions - world class museums, great restaurants, great ethnic and economic diversity. It has a decent club scene, and many attractions are only 90 minutes away incl NYC, DC, the Jersey shore & Atlantic City, the famous Dupont mansions, Brandywine Valley, Amish Country, etc. You can't get any of this anywhere in North Carolina. </p>
<p>Best of luck</p>
<p>I think Penn and its position within the city of Philadelphia (both in physical and figurative sense) make it uniquely positioned to experience city life.</p>
<p>Unlike a lot of urban schools (well okay, unlike Columbia), Penn still has a very strong on-campus community and focus.</p>
<p>Also, unlike a lot of urban schools, Penn is actually VERY close to the downtown area. It's within reasonable walking distance (one of my favorite events is the annual "walnut walk" pub crawl that starts downtown and ends at Smokey Joe's on 40th street) and accessible by bus, subway, taxi, and glorious phillycarshare.</p>
<p>Aside from the crime problem that comes and goes, it's definitely a more interesting experience than Durham...</p>
<p>I actually had a really hard time choosing between Duke ED and UPenn ED. Yes, Penn's med program may INCH out Dukes (which is outstanding, of course). </p>
<p>I doubt that Duke is any more competitive - if fact even the notion seems silly to me. After all, is Duke supposed to have a more competitive environment or something? Give me a break - Duke is the only school in the top ten with a real claim to "relaxing." </p>
<p>Philly is great, but don't overrate it. The main attraction is the food, which is wonderful. My aunt, who teaches at UPenn, points out that other than that New York, Boston, Chicago and DC are much better places to be. Nevertheless, you won't get the city experience in Durham (believe me). And you have to give points to UPenn for managing a fairly strong community in Philly, but at the same time I've got a tons of friends there who say the campus clears out in the weekends. </p>
<p>I'd advise you to consider what you want for your undergraduate experience. You will have very few opportunities to live on a true college campus, and a whole lot to explore city-life. </p>
<p>So don't rush to Philly thinking "O man I want to know want to know what city-life is like," because (a) if you really want to know you should go to Columbia, and (b) you'll have lots of time for the later.</p>
<p>Also consider the students. People "say" Duke students are more laid back and know how to have fun (even though UPenn is the "social" ivy"), and from my own observation and anecdotal evidence I have no doubt about that. </p>
<p>The other thing about UPenn is that it is limited by the Ivy Leauge. I know, this seems like a weird idea, but think about this: UPenn students refer to it as the "social ivy" (I've mutiple friends there who have), while Duke students refer to Duke as just "Duke." UPenn has historically relied on its Ivy League status. Although that is hardly the case now (in part thanks to Wharton), it still is defined by the Ivy League, following the stronger institutions within that grouping (HYP). Duke is Duke. Dukie's compare themselves to no one, UPenn...ies compare themselvs to...well..Yallies, Harvardits, Brownies, etc. etc. That's the reason I chose Duke.</p>
<p>
This is highly debatable, to say the least:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Philly has larger and finer art museums and collections than Boston or Chicago.</p></li>
<li><p>Philly has a MUCH larger--and in many ways more impressive--park network than NYC, Boston, Chicago, or DC.</p></li>
<li><p>Philly has a "Big 5" symphony orchestra that is comparable to NYC's, Boston's, and Chicago's, and much more preeminent than DC's.</p></li>
<li><p>Philly has a music conservatory (Curtis) that is as internationally preeminent as Julliard in NYC and more preeminent than anything Boston, Chicago, or certainly DC has to offer, and which provides free recitals by future international classical music stars every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday evenings that are open to the public.</p></li>
<li><p>Philly has many more historic neighborhoods and sites than Boston, Chicago, or DC, and compares favorably in that regard to NYC.</p></li>
<li><p>The Philly area has more public gardens and arboreta than any other city in the country, including NYC, Boston, Chicago, and DC.</p></li>
<li><p>Philly has the largest indoor flower show in the world.</p></li>
<li><p>Philly has, according to the AAA guide, among "the most beautiful exurban areas in the country," which include areas like artist Andrew Wyeth's Chadds Ford in Delaware County, Valley Forge in Montgomery County, and Bucks County's New Hope and surrounding countryside.</p></li>
<li><p>You acknowledge Philly's food scene, which includes hundreds of terrific restaurants in several distinct restaurant neighborhoods (including over 200 sidewalk cafes in Center City, alone). But the Philly food scene also includes several indoor farmer's markets throughout the city, including the Reading Terminal Market, probably the largest and oldest indoor market of its kind in the country. It also includes the famous Italian Market in South Philly, one of the largest open air markets of its kind in the country, and certainly unparalleled in NYC, Boston, Chicago, or DC.</p></li>
<li><p>Philly's Center City residential community is BOOMING, with thousands of high-end condos recently built, under construction, or planned (including several luxury skyscrapers), and many the individual condo units sell for millions of dollars. In fact, Philly now has the 2nd largest downtown population of any city in the country.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I could go on about resident theater companies, dance groups, ethnic festivals, etc., but I think you get the idea. In addition to Philly, I've lived in NYC and DC (as well as other major cities), and have visited Chicago and Boston a few times. I have a pretty good idea of what they all have to offer. They're all great cities. But I think that your aunt may be missing out on a lot of what Philly has to offer. :)</p>
<p>GUYS, let's go take a walk in the park and see a large indoor flower show this weekend!</p>
<p>Oh, you silly Penn kids.</p>
<p>what, you don't like the duke gardens?</p>
<p>How do you break it to the poor kid that "Duke is Duke" because it's known by the ESPN-tards?</p>
<p>Oh well.</p>
<p>
<p>Oh, you silly Penn kids.
I was responding to the purported opinion of jct30's aunt that other than the food in Philly, "New York, Boston, Chicago and DC are much better places to be." My response was geared toward mature, intelligent, culturally aware adults--in which I include mature, intelligent, culturally aware college undergrads--and not toward immature college kids whose heads are still in high school, and whose idea of a great time is hangin' at the mall or seeing how much beer they can down in one night. And by the way, Philly also offers a tremendous amount of nightlife and entertainment targeted to college students, considering that it has over 300,000 of them attending more than 90 colleges and universities (one of the largest student populations in the country).</p>
<p>
[quote]
ESPN-tards
[/quote]
What!? People who take an interest in sports are stupid. So, that Intel finalist work I saw this one ESPN-tard do was all a fake! It couldn't be that he used his brain to do it.
:rolleyes:</p>
<p>But umm yea.. I visited Penn during my junior year and Duke after I was accepted. I may be a little biased since I spent more time at Duke when I visited. (Got into Duke, didn't get into Penn.. shows how much college visits actually matter, :D) I found that people at Penn were happy because 'they were great enough to get into Penn'. However, people were happy at Duke because they loved their school. School spirit is much greater at Duke than Penn. </p>
<p>I also got a sense of an inferiority complex from CAS at Penn as well, relative to Wharton. I have a friend who applied to Penn's school of engineering, didn't get in there, but was accepted to its college of arts and sciences (I don't think he expressed any interest in CAS). He's at Duke now, :)</p>
<p>ead's comment sums up a positive of Duke and negative of Penn. North Carolina has beautiful weather. I may just be grateful as a New Yorker. </p>
<p>In all seriousness, both are great schools. They have a similar set of students: intelligent yet disappointingly anti-intellectual but people with strong career plans and ambition.</p>
<p>I find people at Duke are incredibly cooperative. It mostly depends on the class. I felt the intense competition for Orgo. I heard that someone's model kit was stolen the night before an exam. I found it hard to join a study group, in the sense, that there weren't really any. I finally found one with three people in my dorm but I didn't find it till late November and they couldn't even meet up for finals week. However, Penn Orgo is probably equally competitive, if not more so.</p>
<p>Fair points 45 Percenter - indeed, she may be missing a lot of Philly. Thanks for keeping the discussion civil.</p>
<p>Mondo - anti-intellectual? Close, and really, I understand where you are coming from. But I prefer counter-intellectual. IE: We believe there is more to life than never missing a NYTimes column. Or at least, there are other things in life.</p>
<p>Nice post about Philly, 45%er. U sold me. You're not a realtor are u? [kidding] Actually, I'm having a tough, well not so tough, decision between some great opportunities and this discussion has been very helpful. Your description of Philly is certainly very enticing. I have to choose between Philly, Ithaca, Boston, St. Louis, and a few more. Since I hope to head to Cambridge eventually [hehe], I can save that experience for later. I can hear Ole Ben calling me. Will visit next week hopefully to close the deal. Hope the weather is good. Also will visit Cornell. Those guys have incredible spirit on their discussion board and are trying to be quite persuasive. A phone call from a UPenn student last night was pretty nice though. Not to sidetrack the discussion, but any thoughts on UPenn vs Cornell [for engineering and business] more than the obvious?</p>
<p>I hope your stay in Ole Ben's city goes well! Be sure to explore Center City, Old City, and of course, University City. Take note of all the construction going on. You might say it's "Change we can believe in" ;)</p>
<p>I was in a similar situation as of....last week. Haha.</p>
<p>I'm from California, and had to pick between Duke and Penn (business). Obviously, I picked Duke (see location). I really did like Penn, but these were the drawbacks for me:
1) Terrible weather. This is even more significant for me, since I am literally allergic to cold. I always brushed off the weather, pretending that I could withstand the toughest Boston winters (since I originally planned on Boston College) with the grace and sophistication of a North Face coat and Burberry scarf. After my first beach trip of the new spring, laying on the grass by the ocean at La Jolla Beach, I reconsidered. Do I really want to spend 75% of my time under gray skies?? I love basking in the sun, I love vitamin D. So, no. Duke isn't as good as San Diego, but it's better than anywhere else I applied in that regard.</p>
<p>2) The city. Ok, this probably makes little sense since everyone knows that Durham is a crappy city, but Duke is definitely in its own little world separated from the town. In my 5 days on campus I barely caught a glimpse of Durham. Penn, on the other hand is much more open to the city. This would be a good thing if I had really loved Philadelphia...And plenty of people do, and I'm sure it takes time being a student to really experience the potential of urban coolness that Philly definitely does offer. Still, there are some cities that I fell in love with in minutes (BOSTON!), but Philadelphia isn't one of them.
Still, on the overall tally, most people will put a 'plus' next to Penn in terms of location. This is more of a personal thing. </p>
<p>3) The School. Another issue that doesn't exactly apply to you since I would have been a Wharton student, and you are in the college. Some of the Penn alumni I know ended up going to get an MBA, and then realized how repetitive it all was...On the flipside, if you are able to get an employer who really likes Wharton, you can hopefully make do without being forced to go for an MBA.</p>
<p>4) The people. OK, this is a touchy issue, but...I just had so much more fun with Duke kids. Everyone I met was just sooooo nice (this is not a term relative to Penn students, who were just dandy - it's just that Duke kids could not have been any more genial), and forgive me for lamely using a stereotype of "southern hospitality" versus "urban business" to support my position. Penn may be known as the "party Ivy", but Duke would undoubtedly challenge for that title if it were an Ivy.
Also: this may not apply to the college, but I think even Penn students might agree that starchy I-Banker wannabe Whartonites might not be the coolest crowd.</p>
<p>P.S. Prestige may not be an issue for you. I definitely gave a little up when it comes down to Wharton vs. Duke, but in general, how many people even know that UPenn is an ivy league? </p>
<p>This merely focused on the negatives of Penn, because there are plenty of pluses to see on the Duke forum, and the current Penn students will handle the positive aspects of Penn fully, I presume. And remember, the more bias the better! (It means students have good school spirit and love their campus ;)</p>
<p>In closing, I'll pass on the verbatim advice I got from others in making my decision (which, as I noted was uh...a week ago): YOU ARE BLESSED EITHER WAY YOU GO!!! </p>
<p>PPS: Definitely for pre-med competitiveness is important! I've heard that Duke is more competitive for pre-med, which could be a bad thing! The most notorious are Berkeley, Johns Hopkins, and WashU, right?
If I were pre-med, I would probably choose the friendlier atmosphere. If that is Penn, that might work in its favor.</p>