Penn vs. WashU vs. Bama

Parents Forum
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<p>My son has some incredibly good options, and he's interested in your opinions on how to choose among them. </p>

<p>He'd like to study computer engineering, get a technical graduate degree, work for a few years and then get an MBA. Eventually he'd like to work in top management for a tech company or start his own firm.</p>

<p>He has six acceptances and is currently considering three outstanding offers:</p>

<p>University of Alabama
[ul]
[<em>] Chosen for both the University Fellows Experience and Computer-Based Honors. These programs offer extensive mentoring and grooming for research, awards, prestige scholarships, internships, and grad school.
[</em>] Offered a full-ride-plus scholarship. Could graduate with $85,000 or more in the bank, because parents will save money intended for undergraduate expenses toward graduate study.
[<em>] Dual-enrollment community courses will transfer, so he could easily get a double or triple major. 'Bama will also count the grades he earned in those transfer courses toward his cumulative GPA. By transferring in 60 credit hours of almost straight A's, he'd be almost certain to graduate with a strong GPA.
[</em>] He really liked the people he met and the energy and excitement he felt on campus when he visited.
[li] However, the school isn't highly ranked in engineering.[/li][/ul]</p>

<p>Washington University in St. Louis
[ul]
[<em>] Offered a full-tuition engineering scholarship plus a $5,000 research grant.
[</em>] Could graduate without debt, although without a large sum in the bank.
[<em>] Likes the idea of attending an elite private school and being surrounded by accomplished peers.
[</em>] Cost difference to choose WashU over 'Bama = about $85,000.
[li] Large emphasis on biology/biomedical/pre-med makes him wonder how well he'll fit in; that's not his interest.[/li][/ul]</p>

<p>University of Pennsylvania
[ul]
[<em>] Higher-ranked school, both overall and in engineering; he likes what he's seen on the website about some of the programs offered there, such as a minor in engineering entrepreneurship.
[</em>] Doesn't know the financial aid offer yet, but since Ivys give no merit aid, it's almost certain to be more costly than the other two options. We're guessing he would end up with some debt – perhaps as little as $20,000, perhaps more like $60,000.
[<em>] Thinks the recruiting, starting salaries, connections and networking might be superior here compared to the other options.
[</em>] Could take a few business classes at Wharton.
[<em>] Wouldn't automatically have research opportunities, as he would at the other schools.
[</em>] Has heard that the average GPA in engineering is around 3.0, which might rule out graduate school.
[li] Hasn't visited the campus yet, so doesn't know whether he'll like it there.[/li][/ul]</p>

<p>I asked him how he thought people would respond to this post. He laughed and said:</p>

<p>A third of them will say, "You'd be crazy to turn down the University of Pennsylvania! The Ivy League pedigree and the connections you'll make will change your life. The debt will be insignificant in the long run. Go to Penn, and you'll never regret it!"</p>

<p>Another third will say, "You'd be crazy to turn down Washington University! You can get an elite education without paying a penny in tuition. They've already singled you out for special attention and offered to fund your research. And you'll graduate debt-free. Go to WashU, and never look back!"</p>

<p>And the final third will say, "You'd be crazy to turn down the University of Alabama! You'll be a superstar there. You'll win top awards and get into top grad schools. Whatever you want is yours for the asking. You'll graduate at the top of your class, with loads of cash in the bank for graduate school. Go for 'Bama in a heartbeat!"</p>

<p>So, what do you think?</p>

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<p>My son chose Wash U over Penn and it’s been the best decision. Advising at Wash U is second to none, campus is safe and gorgeous, spirit/community service is terrific…I could go on and on. My son is an accounting and history major with a minor in music. He can take courses in any school/major in any school, without “applying” to it. Terrific flexibility, terrific faculty (had a broken finger that caused him to need special accommodations–given no problem). I can’t say enough about WUSTL–and some of my friends whose kids are/have been at Penn feel maybe they should have chosen Wash U.</p>

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<p>Supposing that he visits Penn and likes it as much as he likes the other two – which I can’t take for granted – the amount of debt is a huge factor. IMHO, $20,000 is reasonable, and $60,000 is unreasonable.</p>

<p>Would he still be torn between Bama and Wash U if they were the same price?</p>

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<p>Congrats to your son on having three great options, lgreen. Has he visited all three schools? Obviously, Bama’s culture is vastly different from the other two, and Wash U and Penn have their differences as well. Penn is in an urban setting, Wash U in sort of a cool urban/suburban hybrid area. Wash U also has a distinctly Midwestern feel – hard to pin down, but very real. A little slower paced, a little less pretentious than many campuses on the East coast. But smart kids. You mention that your son likes the idea of being surrounded by accomplished peers. That’s no small matter, and it points towards either of the private institutions. </p>

<p>As for Penn vs. Wash U, as I understand it, the major merit scholarship recipients at Wash U have absolutely stellar research and informal learning opportunities. I can’t imagine that Penn’s ivy cachet would open any more doors to your son than the Wash U scholarship program would. And all of it for free. Has he spoken with current students in the program? Potential mentor professors?</p>

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<p>dfedder, can you tell me more about this? What have the kids encountered at Penn that makes them or their parents think that maybe they should have chosen WashU?</p>

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<p>WashU has risen so fast and so far in terms of prestige that I don’t think the Ivy pedigree is that strong an argument in this situation. I think a school in that tier with merit money is a great option for a kid who needs to consider the cost.</p>

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<p>I also have a son who’s a student at Wash U and he absolutely loves everything about it. The students are friendly, bright and collaborative, the campus is gorgeous, the facilities are top-notch, he’s in a modern suite-style dorm where he shares a bathroom with 3 suitemates, the food is good, the advising is strong and personal, there’s no red tape to get anything done, there are a ton of activities and parties and study breaks, the professors genuinely seem to care about the students, and I could go on and on. What more could you ask for?</p>

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<p>He says if they were the same price, he would choose WashU because it is ranked higher, although from his scholarship weekend impression of both schools, he liked Alabama better.</p>

<p>The Fellows were some of the most amazing people he had ever met. They were passionate about what they were doing, they had all accomplished incredible things, and several had turned down Ivy/MIT offers to come to 'Bama. So the caliber of these students is the same as those he’d find at WashU or Penn, but they are fewer in number.</p>

<p>At Alabama, the Fellows and Computer-Based Honors students were all-stars who could work with any professor they wanted, get funding to do any project they wanted, and really make a big impact in the larger community. They had the resources to do things like go to Europe to work on the Large Hadron Collider, and they were winning Goldwaters, Academic All-American, and other big awards. DS thinks winning awards like these would be really helpful for graduate school. In fact, one of the CBH students had just been accepted to an MIT Ph.D. program on full stipend. </p>

<p>He thinks WashU would be an awesome opportunity, but he wonders how much one can really stand out in a community where everyone is such a high achiever. In an environment like that, will the scholarship and research grant to WashU truly make much difference?</p>

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<p>“In an environment like that, will the scholarship and research grant to WashU truly make much difference?”</p>

<p>Um, well, there’s the whole not having to pay 50K a year for an elite private school education…<em>cough</em> :wink: Clearly he stands out to some extent. Not to the extent he stands out at 'Bama, but he still stands out.</p>

<p>Anyway, my opinion is that this is a choice between UAlabama and WUStL, and that UPenn is out of the running. One inaccurate thing is the assumption that 3.0 is a low avg. for engineering. I think it is 2.7 at UMCP. I have friends who were accepted to the school on full scholarship (and UMCP’s engineering program is much more highly ranked that 'Bama’s), accepted to Columbia and other Ivies, etc…and they are still struggling to pull Cs in some of the classes. Engineering is tough and 3.0 isn’t low at all for an average, and isn’t going to exclude one from graduate school admissions or a career in the slightest.</p>

<p>I am strongly concerned that there seems to be a lot of emphasis on “which one is more prestigious” and “which one is going to get him into better grad schools”</p>

<p>At this point, the choice is NOT a question of which one is more prestigious or which one will give S better grad school options. BOTH are amazingly prestigious…your S has received an extremely prestigious offer from 'Bama and also a prestigious offer from WUStL. To me, the prestige in these two accomplishments is equal. You said yourself that the other students who received the scholarship at UAlabama were also high-flyers.</p>

<p>Secondly, BOTH will yield amazing grad school options. Grad school is not so much WHERE you did your undergrad, but WHAT you did while you were there. Clearly your S is capable of fabulous things, so he has to decide which place will give him the most opportunities to flex his muscles in that area.</p>

<p>I find it odd that your S liked UAlabama more but said he would pick WUStL if cost was not a consideration? However he makes his decision, I hope he bases it on where he sees the most tangible opportunities for growing as a student, a researcher and professional, and not based on which one has the higher ranking on USNWR.</p>

<p>That said, I cannot say whether S should pick 'Bama or WUStL. Again, both great options. Both prestigious options. Both options that will undoubtably set him up for huge successes later on. If S is also interested in fields outside of the sciences and engineering, WUStL might be the better choice. I have a feeling the English/history classes are of a bit better quality, probably smaller, with better discussion ;). Otherwise, I’d personally take the money at 'Bama and run with it.</p>

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<p>Congratulations on the admissions!! If you haven’t had a student researching Alabama engineering, don’t be quick to judge. They are heavily recruiting from out of state with generous scholarships for top students. Their rank will raise quickly because of this. They are a large university with a large budget and are putting big bucks into their program where others are cutting back. Unless your student is being offered an unbelievable package at a top university, or you have a great in state school there is an argument to spend the money on the masters at a top university. My son (hs. Jr.) works with engineers at Lockheed Martin, SAIC, Micron, and others who all agree, don’t go broke on your undergrad, save it for your masters at a top university. BTW, my son is looking at UVA, VATech, GATech, and Bama. I won’t list stats but he stands a very fair chance at all schools. UVA and VATech would be in state.</p>

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<p>tough call if he already felt at home at Bama. </p>

<p>I would go with Wash U to get ready for the “flattened world” that our children will inhabit and to get used to living with people from all over the USA quickly. But I am not convinced that going to Wash U would lead to a better life than Bama.</p>

<p>Big believer in your child’s mental health and outlook as top choice factors…if he is hugely responsible, he can make Bama sing.</p>

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<p>As a scientist who grew up in Alabama, IMHO the climate needs to be considered (and I am not talking about humidity and bugs). Alabama has experienced a serious brain drain since the era of the Rocket Team in Huntsville. The reason that the state is devoting serious resources to attracting science/math/high test score OOS students is that the local kids of this sort have a tendency to flee the state if possible due to anti-intellectual attitudes from various quarters. With few high achieving students, 'Bama doesn’t attract or keep top notch science and engineering professors, leading to a downward spiral which has finally gotten bad enough for the state to throw money at the problem. Of course, your son will be treated like a rock star by his profs, but the extended peer group will definitely be closer to an (Alabama) high school experience than the other schools under consideration. If your son is ready to be a pioneer in the “wilderness”, go right ahead and enjoy the tailgate parties. Sorry to be a wet (humid?) blanket…</p>

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<p>lgreen, quick follow up…my note regarding researching Alabama engineering was for other posters who may be responding to your post. You have obviously done an unbelievable amount of research on behalf of your student and will help him make the choice that is right for him. I re-read my post and wanted to make sure it didn’t appear that I was saying you had not looked into the school…
Again, congratulations and best of luck to your son!! I’m sure he will have a wonderful future! :)</p>

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<p>I don’t think going to Penn for engineering is a wise move. (I have a Penn senior in CAS) It just isn’t worth the money. I would go with one of the other two vastly different options.</p>

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<p>I do regret that he doesn’t have an engineering powerhouse on his list of acceptances. He didn’t apply to places like Georgia Tech, Illinois, Michigan or Purdue, because they are all out of state for us and we knew we could not afford them. He tried for Stanford, MIT and Cornell but was either rejected or waitlisted.</p>

<p>However, we cannot complain about his excellent choices!</p>

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<p>The chance to attend college for free in a recession with a good self starter like your kid does turn one’s head. </p>

<p>The chance to attend college in St. Louis at Wash U tuition free is a once in a lifetime re social stretch and broadening experiences since the student body is national. I do hope he is going to Accepted Student Day at Wash U.</p>

<p>Your question about “how to stand out” is a fair one that most parents have asked or students have wondered. My sons turned down the perks offered by Virginia colleges (not comparable to the perks you have been offered in Alabama!). It is true that it is harder to stand out when you are average at a very selective college…which is how I view my sons at Vandy and at Duke. I view them as kids who stand to learn a great deal from their peers–but I don’t think other people’s kids necessarily needed that so much, particularly if they had grown up in sophisticated challenging places. Each of my sons however, had different things to learn and different things to contribute. Each of them fared best in a highly selective college for different reasons. They had been in a smaller setting growing up where I think they didn’t realize what was really “out there.” One needed to toughen up in a much more challenging peer group…and the other needed to spread his wings early and have a big adventure.</p>

<p>As parents I think we know these things about our own kids…how much and what kind of adventure they need at 18…its an instinctive thing really…that and a financial thing.</p>

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<p>I’m a bit confused as to how he would graduate with $85k banked at Bama, and yet have WashU cost $85 more than that. I can’t navigate WUSTL’s poorly-designed website to find out, but COA-tuition can’t be more than 15k total per year, which adds up to 60k.</p>

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^Is pretty much what I would advise personally, ASSUMING that, as Hanna says, he would pick WashU over Bama if they were the same price, and that you won’t get any aid at Penn. Don’t count on access to Wharton business courses.</p>

<p>However: being more highly ranked is NOT a good reason to pick a school. Has he visited Bama on a non-Fellows weekend, and ditto for WashU?</p>

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<p>I’d have to agree that this decision is between Wash U and Alabama - and I know nothing about Alabama. However, it doesn’t sound like he can go wrong with the research opportunities at either school. And a computer engineering degree from either will start him off with a good salary, so the potential savings is not as crucial as it might be for another major. So, that makes the choice personal - where would he fit in best? What kind of atmosphere does he prefer? Is Wash U too far away (in distance or culture)for comfort?</p>

<p>My middle son turned down an acceptance at Wash U, but it was on his final list. It’s a beautiful, well-run school with amazing facilities, but very much a private school.</p>

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<p>Sorry for the confusion. </p>

<p>If he goes to 'Bama, it costs us nothing and he ends up with $85k in the bank, because we’ll take the money that would have been spent on his undergraduate education and let him use it instead for grad school.</p>

<p>If he goes to WashU, we spend the bulk of that money on room, board, books, travel, and other expenses that are not covered by WashU’s full-tuition scholarship.</p>

<p>So … 'Bama means money in the bank, WashU means breaking even (no debt but no big bank account either). The total difference is $85k – just once. Not $85k on top of another $85k.</p>

<p>Does that make sense?</p>

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<p>^No, I think you misunderstood me. I’m not sure how you would spend $85k over 4 years at WashU. You’d only have room, board, and indirect costs to worry about.</p>