Perhaps a silly question.... Why T-14?

Graduate School Law School
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<p>Why not T-10 or T-20? Why is there such a focus on the T-14? Is this a circumstance where the drop off from 14-15 is precipitous?</p>

<p>Please just let me know, as I am curious. I see this phrase being bandied about quite liberally.</p>

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<p>The T-14 is another term for what are considered “national” law schools. The reason 14 is the magic number is that everyone of those 14 were at one time (are currently are) ranked in the top 10. Thus, it’s kinda like a top 10 list with ties. :)</p>

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<p>all except that Georgetown is going down hill fast.</p>

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<p>Interesting question! Also curious about this</p>

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<p>Since USNWR first began publishing their rankings annually in 1989, the same schools have been ranked the top 14 each and every year. </p>

<p>Though there has been a great deal of jockeying for position elsewhere in the rankings, and certain schools have risen and fallen dramatically in the past 20 years, the T14 has remained a homogenous group. </p>

<p>No new schools have been inducted into the T14 club since the inception of the USNWR rankings.</p>

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<p>UT-Austin is new to the T-14, as of earlier this year. From the USNews website:

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<p>^So UT Austin is officially at T14?</p>

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<p>I understand the point that you were trying to make, but your statement is inaccurate. The first USNews ranking had 10 schools in the top 10. Just 10 – not 14. Over the next many years, with each iteration of USNews’ ranking, some of those in the first top 10 moved down a notch or two, and a couple that were previously out of the top 10 moved up into the top 10.</p>

<p>Over time, 14 different law schools have been ranked in the top 10 in USNews at one time or another. Only 14. (Becoming the new #14, such as UT, does not make it into the top 10.) </p>

<p>btw: should UT or Vandy or UCLA or some other school break into the top 10 some year, then the Top 14 would become the Top 15. :)</p>

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<p>T-14 carries a lot of meaning in the sense that job prospects outside T14 differ tremendously from T14 schools. However, job prospects differ a lot among T14 schools as well. Students at Yale Law will have more doors open to them compared to students at Georgetown Law.</p>

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<p>@Bluebayou
What? What you’re saying makes no sense. 10 schools in the top 10? duh…?</p>

<p>There exists an informal category known as the top 14, or T14. These schools have seen their ranking within the top fourteen spots shift frequently, but they have not placed outside of the top fourteen since the inception of the annual rankings with the exception of Cornell trading places with UCLA during the inaugural rankings in 1987</p>

<p>[US</a> News Law School Rankings Over the Years](<a href=“US News Law School Rankings Over the Years Forum - Top Law Schools”>US News Law School Rankings Over the Years Forum - Top Law Schools)
heres the history of the rankings from 1987-2003</p>

<p><a href=“http://i52.■■■■■■■.com/t65iwz.png[/url]”>http://i52.■■■■■■■.com/t65iwz.png&lt;/a&gt;
heres the rankings from 2002-2011</p>

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<p>Okay, I get it. So there are schools which are nationally recruited and regarded. I have heard people say on this board that within the NY market Fordham Law is extremely highly regarded. Up here in Seattle I know that UW is held very highly regarded, so the idea is that these other 14 are more marketable nationwide? That’s what’s being said?</p>

<p>Very interesting.</p>

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<p>stephen:</p>

<p>Texas was #11 in the original ranking, but only got back to #14 this year.</p>

<p>UCLA was #14 in the original ranking, but has never gotten back to #14 (been #15 a few times).</p>

<p>Thus two in the original 14 have dropped down, and were replaced by Cornell and Northwestern (#15 and #16 respectively, in the original ranking), both of whom have risen to be in the Top 10 at one point. Indeed, every LS in the so-called T14 were at one time in the Top 10. And it is this fact that gives rise to the moniker, T14, at least from what I’ve read on cc.</p>

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<p>So, is it more so that the traditional prestige grants better than average job opportunity? Are they the traditional ones which give the best ROI?</p>

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<p>In general yes. But from a practical matter, many schools do well in their home market. U-Dub places extremely well in the Pac NW and Fordham in NYC, for example. But neither degree would travel as far as a degree from a T14. </p>

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<p>Not so clear. Lower ranked schools may pay you to attend, by offering a large scholarship to woo you away from a higher ranked school. Thus, the “investment” portion is net to you. And as I noted earlier, if you know with certainty that you want to work and live in Seattle, U-Dub can be a no-brainer over a higher ranked LS, particularly if they give you some money. Ditto attending UCLA or USC if you want to be in SoCal.</p>

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<p>Simply put, coming from any school outside of T14, you will almost likely NOT get a BigLaw job. My buddy is 2L at George Washington Law School, which is top 25 school, and he estimated only 20% of grads from that school had jobs lined up. Also, my buddy is top 20% of his class at GW Law, but didn’t secure a single offer from law firms yet.</p>

<p>Legal market is beyond brutal now, and it is really not the smartest career move for anyone to attend any law school outside T14, and maybe few other strong regional schools such as Fordham, Boston College, BU, UCLA, and U Texas. </p>

<p>I just know way too many people, just within my high school alumni network, who got their lives and careers ruined by going to law schools. One guy I know has been working as a substitute teacher for history at a local elementary school after finishing law school. It sucks.</p>

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<p>That is a vast exaggeration. You clearly have an advantage going to a top school to get an internship with BigLaw during your second year and an offer the third year, but you are certainly not shut out coming from a lesser school. As an example, UCONN which is a mid-tier state flagship law school sends between 10-15% of its annual class to BigLaw. That is certainly a lower percentage than a Top 14 school, where maybe up to a third of the class gets into BigLaw, but not impossible odds. You just need to be near the top of the class.</p>

<p>If you don’t care about BigLaw (many law students don’t), or are looking to work in a specialty area like tax, litigation or IP, then where you go to law school is largely irrelevant. Your specific experience in the field will be far more important. If you are interested in a state or Federal clerkship, you may actually be better off graduating from a state flagship where most local judges and prosecutors graduated from. </p>

<p>For clarity, I use the standard definition of BigLaw, firms with more than 500 attorneys paying the highest associate starting salaries, currently around $160K.</p>

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<p>Where is your source, man. Check this out:</p>

<p><a href=“http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414employment_trends.pdf[/url]”>http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414employment_trends.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>U of Connecticut placed less than 10% of their grads into NLJ250 firm jobs, and not all of NLJ250 firms count as ‘BigLaw’. Plus, this data was from before the economy crashed in 2008, so we should assume that U Conn places much worse, today, compared to what that chart indicates. Bottom line: getting BigLaw outside of top14, or few strong regional schools, in this economy, is almost near impossible. You would need to be top 5% of the class, yet that is no guarantee.</p>

<p>Nowadays, people from top 30 law schools such as UIUC, Emory, George Washington, etc are having a lot of trouble getting lawyer jobs paying 50k a year. Let’s not sugar-coat how things are in legal industry now, since that kind of mentality is the very reason tons of uninformed students attend law schools and end up getting screwed very hard.</p>

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<p>IP? litigation? Tax? All those works are done by BigLaw firms or strong elite boutique firms. Hence, a law student desiring to build a career out of those areas of law needs to join BigLaw.</p>

<p>In law, getting BigLaw is the easiest task, if we are considering elite legal employers. Other ‘elite’ employers such as elite government agency jobs, selective clerkships, etc are even HARDER to get than BigLaw. It would be really dumb for anyone to go into law school with the mentality that ‘I don’t care about BigLaw, I just want to do DOJ at Federal government’. Chances are, such an individual will end up unemployed with crap tons of debt after law school.</p>

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<p>it amazes me how people like cellardweller say stuff and act as if they are so confident in their advice. do not listen to that poster, it is obvious he/she has no idea what they are talking about. lazy kid has summarized reality very clearly.</p>

<p>cellardwellar, lol, just lol at your delusion kid. even if you your stats were true, you are really advising someone to go to law school based on a 10%-15% chance that they might get biglaw? many students don’t want biglaw? it is not about what they want, it is about paying off the student debt and biglaw is the only way to do it basically. lastly, LOL at saying federal clerkships will be easier at a state school. i hope you are not attending law school yourself.</p>

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<p>Yeah, I am amazed by how some people are so misinformed about legal job market. It is truly terrible out there. </p>

<p>I tried to warn my high school buddies from going to low ranked law schools, yet they got angry at me and say crap like “Not everyone wants to go to Harvard Law”.</p>

<p>And lastly, by the time law students become 3L, almost everyone wants BigLaw, lol.</p>

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<p>Most have too many bills to pay!</p>