<p>DS is talking about wanting to get a PHD - Chemical Engineering (I think he is already assuming that he wants to delay working as long as possible). His ideal college is one with small classes and a non-city campus (real campus, with greeen space and school spirit); and small greek system. He'd also like to have time to participate in some music or athletic EC's in college.</p>
<p>Given the above, would it make more sense for DS to go to a LAC like Bowdoin/Carleton/Wesleyan and major in chem and take a lot of math/physics/CS? or is it still better for DS to deal with the big engineering school situation and go to the strongest engineering school possible. </p>
<p>DH and I are not engineers and are trying to understand what it involves. There are just so many posts about how miserable the engineering undergrads are - it seems a shame to lose your 4 years of college to grinding out an engineering BS.</p>
<p>He hasn’t even done his undergrad and thinks he wants to do a PhD? That’s a very hard call to make with that level of experience. What does he want to do it for? Academia? Industrial research? Without having experienced research or academia, he really can’t know.</p>
<p>As someone just finishing a PhD in Chemical Engineering at a top 15 program, I will say we have people from different academic backgrounds. Most of our students did Chemical Engineering in their undergrad, but one of the most successful people in my cohort went to Middlebury College and studied biology and biochemistry. I can’t say which path is going to be better, but it certainly can be done.</p>
<p>I don’t know if this is a joke or not, but if not, it is either ignorance on your part or his part. A PhD is a lot more work than most industry jobs in engineering would be over the same 5 to 6 year period. I often joke that I got a PhD because I simply just didn’t want to grow up, but anyone who knows me knows how little sleep I get and how many hours I put in on an average week. I just wanted to make sure you and/or your son know that going in.</p>
<p>That said, I want to echo what CanisNebula said. Your son has not even started his undergraduate studies, so while it is fine to think he wants to get a PhD and try and tailor his studies accordingly, it is important to realize that a PhD is a huge can of worms to open and is only really advisable if the end goal is some sort of career in research. With that in mind, I would say the most important thing for your son to do once he starts his studies is to find a professor who is willing to let him work in the lab as an undergraduate researcher. That is the absolutely best way to determine if graduate school is right for you, and if it isn’t, he won’t waste time starting a graduate program later on only to find out how much it isn’t a match for him.</p>
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<p>It is certainly possible and somewhat common to go from a small liberal arts college to engineering graduate school. My primary caution is that many (though not all) small LACs have limited research opportunities for undergraduates. Given his interest in graduate school, I would strongly suggest that you look at those with research opportunities in the sciences so that at the very least, your son will have the chance to actually explore whether a career in research is right for him.</p>
<p>I would also like to add that you can find plenty of the large state engineering powerhouses that are in real college towns with green space and school spirit and a small Greek system. That said, I don’t think the size of the Greek system really ought to be a factor for you guys unless it is because he wants to be in that system and wants it to be a small one. Otherwise, if the object is to avoid it, the solution is to simply avoid it. I went to UIUC for my undergraduate degree where the largest Greek system in the country resides. I wasn’t in a frat and didn’t really associate much with those who were.</p>
<p>In terms of “small classes”, what do you consider small? 10? 40? 100?</p>
<p>Ultimately, I always say that students should study the subject that gets them the job they ultimately want. Let’s say your son decides his junior year that graduate school is not right for him. Does a simple chemistry degree get him the job that he wants, or does he need to be in chemical engineering for that? That is the real question you should be asking, and there is no general correct answer to it, only the correct answer for him.</p>
<p>thank you for all the good info. As I said, we know very little about engineering and are just trying to educate ourselves. </p>
<p>I don’t think DS knows anymore about what job he wants than if he wants to do research for a career. He has just mentioned a PHD as a goal and we are trying to figure out what type of undergraduate education will best keep his options open.</p>
<p>If he does go with a smaller college, there are also summer research opportunities through NSF and other agencies, such as the REU (Research Experience for Undergraduates), and similar programs at various universities.</p>
<p>Don’t know what state or region the OP resides in, but two very good small engineering college options are the South Dakota School of Mines & Technology and its rival, the Colorado School of Mines. I am more familiar with SDSM&T. Small campus, LAC-sized student body and a very rigorous in ME, MSE, Ch-E and of course mining.</p>
<p>Both are public universities but their small size allows for great rapport between the faculty and their students. Also, don’t think that small means few research opportunities. SDSM&T is full of research opportunities for undergrads, almost disproportionately so. The place conducts a lot of research sponsored by the feds and NASA and private industry. Costwise SDSM&T is a bargain for non-Dakotans. Colorado School of Mines is about 10 grand more expensive.</p>
<p>Thank you for all the small engineering recommendations. But what I think I am asking is if my son decides he is not ready for a hard core, big university engineering program (like UIUC), do you think its still better to go to a less prestigious small engineering school than to go to a great LAC (like Bowdoin or Carleton)? We are looking at this long run, not just the first job out of college.</p>
<p>and please don’t slam me for “less prestigious” - I’m not trying to debate the reputation of any particular school or the quality of its education.</p>
<p>I certainly wouldn’t look at it that way - I had a blast in undergrad. An engineering degree is really as fun as you make it, and those who are genuinely passionate about engineering should have an enjoyable experience. </p>
<p>It’s usually those who try and force themselves in to engineering (for job prospects, pay, etc.), despite their disinterest in the field, that tend to have a horrible time in engineering school. Going to the wrong school can also make matters worse (i.e. simply running your finger down the US News “top schools” list and landing on the first one you can get in to is not a great way of finding a school). You really need to take the time and find a school with the right personal fit.</p>
<p>First, have him build a list of schools he is interested in and are affordable (consider class sizes, curriculum, rural/suburban/city, weather, etc). Next, throw out any schools that aren’t ABET-accredited in ChemE, as well as schools with weak engineering departments (in this case, any schools where the vast majority of students are non-engineering students). Finally, from this smaller list, have him pick the school(s) he likes best and have him start applying. Optionally, you can plan campus visits to any school(s) he gets accepted to for a final decision.</p>
<p>Whatever you do, don’t get bogged down in the “prestige” game. College prestige matters very little, if at all for engineering and science fields.</p>
<p>I would agree with this, although it may depend from one graduate program to another how much they care about where you went for college. Certainly the entering classes in my department for PhD have very few “big name” schools, yet we are in the top 10-15. </p>
<p>There are also fairly prestigious small engineering schools, such as Olin and Harvey Mudd.</p>
<p>fractalmstr-that’s good to hear. I showed my son the 4 year course schedule for chem E at a few schools (and I was thinking UGH) - but when he looked at it, he said, “that looks like fun.” I may just have to have faith that “fun” can have a number of definitions. :)</p>
<p>CanisNebula- Harvey Mudd would be the dream, but with its tough admissions stats I’m not sure its DS’s reality. Maybe U Rochester though…</p>
<p>As a whole, I like U of Rochester a lot. Daughter of a good friend is a recent grad (non-STEM). For STEM it would have been a good choice for Lake Jr.</p>