PhD in Musicology - questions!

College Majors Music Major
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<p>Hello everyone!</p>

<p>Before I begin, I'm asking you to please excuse my ignorance for any questions that might seem to have an obvious answer. I'm starting from scratch here.</p>

<p>To give you a little background, I have a BMus, and an MA in Musicology. I'm a Canadian. I am looking to do a PhD in musicology, with my area of focus being on avant-garde/post WWII composers and, often, their relationship with the visual artists at the same time. I wrote my Masters thesis on this topic and thoroughly look forward to doing more in the area. I'm quite certain that if I veered from this, chances are, it wouldn't be very far.</p>

<p>I am planning on applying to schools this fall. I have been reading about different schools, talking to past professors, trying to narrow it down... It's proving to be a tough process! So much to read, so much to look at. I've slightly narrowed it down... But not really.</p>

<p>Like most people, I'm sure: financial aid/tuition plays a large part in the equation. So does, obviously, the faculty with whom I'd be studying with and the grad job placement rate. I'm not really a performer anymore, if that matters at all. And, of course, it would be nice if housing there would not be astronomical... I already know some of the very good schools are in locations that costs a pretty penny to live. If the market isn't through the roof, I'd be willing to buy a house.</p>

<p>So basically, I'm looking for any advice possible!</p>

<p>I'm interested in attending an American school... Preferably in a really warm climate (just kidding on that last part).</p>

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<p>In terms of warm, University of California Berkeley has a very well ranked graduate program in musicology, though not a traditional performance school of music. In terms of not-so-warm, University of Michigan School of Music Theater and Dance has a well-ranked musicology program. (Note: Take rankings with a grain of salt, but those were top programs in a 1997 grad school evaluation. There are not really meaningful music program rankings in general.)</p>

<p>Have you spoken to either of those departments to get a sense of fit?
I’m sure lots of other posters will have suggestions but those are two peer programs I know of. (My son is an undergrad at UMich. Really loves Mark Clague in musicology, if you get a chance to talk to him.)
Best wishes in your search.
Cheers!
(note: even though these are public schools who traditionally do not have a lot of funding available for international schools, I believe their grad programs are either fully funded or substantially funded via GSI work.)</p>

<p>PS - Do McGill and UBC and UT not offer grad degrees in musicology?</p>

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<p>this site will show you the current job market - which is really not a “market” - because the numbers are so small - the current situation for PhD’s is perhaps best described as “catastrophic.” You should go into this thinking you want to spend some time studying musicology and realize you may never get a job. You should also be very proactive - present papers at conferences, try to publish. From this site, you can see who got jobs, where, and where from, and also who got jobs in your particular area of interest - though that changes year to year - and you can see all the comments by those who were looking for jobs this year:
[music_history_musicology_ethnomusicology</a> in Academic Careers - [wikihost.org]](<a href=“http://www.wikihost.org/w/academe/music_history_musicology_ethnomusicology]music_history_musicology_ethnomusicology”>http://www.wikihost.org/w/academe/music_history_musicology_ethnomusicology)</p>

<p>the top schools include (warm weather) Berkeley, UCLA, Stanford; (4 seasons) Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Michigan, Chicago; CUNY, NYU, UNC, and Brandeis are also good. You should expect full funding or not go, and if you don’t go to a top school, your chance of a tenure-track job is slim to nothing.
There are other threads on these subjects here, going back through the last couple of years. Do some searches.</p>

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<p>add Cornell and Penn to the list: they are top US schools in musicology.</p>

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<p>^(slight correction to my post, meant international students, not international schools ;)</p>

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<p>Thank you for all of your quick replies!</p>

<p>kmcmom13 - I was sort of joking about the warm aspect, but I did hear a lot about UC Berkeley and have read a lot about it. I don’t plan on performing, and am not concerned about that.</p>

<p>I haven’t spoken to the departments yet - I’m very overwhelmed and trying to narrow it down just a little, first.</p>

<p>There are schools here, among the ones you mentioned, but they don’t really offer much funding, as well as the odds of getting a job after seem pretty slim. Many of my professors have encouraged going to the US for my PhD.</p>

<p>mamenyu - I do realize that I might never get a job, but right now I won’t get a job with just a Masters, so I figure if it’s time immersed in something I love, why not? That is why I am keen on funding, so at least I won’t come out of it with financial trouble.</p>

<p>Thank you for your advice, too. I have two papers on the go that I am submitting to journals in the next month or so, too. Thanks for the link - I am going to spend some time looking at it after I finish this post.</p>

<p>The schools you listed were ones that I had also pretty much narrowed down, except I also had Northwestern and UC Santa Cruz (have a very good avant-garde program, it seems?) on mine. At least that narrows it down some!</p>

<p>I have a question for you: you wrote “You should expect full funding or not go” – do you mean that if I don’t get full funding, I shouldn’t go? Some websites aren’t clear with funding… Do schools, for the most part, offer it?</p>

<p>I have done some searches and have read a bunch of posts, but I thought I would just see for myself, also.</p>

<p>Thanks so much! I really appreciate it!</p>

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<p>You might find this page, a short guide to locating a program: [AMS—How</a> to find a graduate program in musicology](<a href=“http://www.ams-net.org/graduate-study-in-musicology.php]AMS—How”>http://www.ams-net.org/graduate-study-in-musicology.php) </p>

<p>and this list of graduate programs: [AMS—Graduate</a> programs in musicology](<a href=“http://www.ams-net.org/gradprog.php]AMS—Graduate”>http://www.ams-net.org/gradprog.php)</p>

<p>helpful. Hope so.</p>

<p>Bob Judd
American Musicological Society
<a href="mailto:rjudd@ams-net.org">rjudd@ams-net.org</a></p>

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<p>lls150, the reason I asked about McGill/UBC/UT is because unfunded programs are so expensive in the U.S. I would fear the fiscal burden of attending unfunded.</p>

<p>By comparison, grad school at most of the Canadian U’s I know is a fraction, and I mean A FRACTION of the cost, so it really doesn’t matter whether funded or not.</p>

<p>I won’t put words in mamenyu’s mouth but suspect s/he meant that it would be a serious financial burden in this job market if unfunded. </p>

<p>Good luck in your search!</p>

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<p>I don’t think Northwestern and especially not UCSC are in the running here…especially as you already have a masters degree. For you to have any hope of a TT job, you need a PhD from a top program, and those don’t qualify, as far as I am aware. You won’t see many jobs going to grads from those schools on the wiki - btw, check previous years too.</p>

<p>Most PhD programs do offer full funding (sometimes requiring some teaching - as at Columbia and Harvard - which is good for your resume, too), at least for 4 or 5 years, and then there are dissertation fellowships. There are also some other sources of funding, but some, like ones for studying certain foreign languages (which might be useful in your research, e.g., Hungarian, for study of Bartok) may be only for US citizens. It some cases, you could be offered partial funding, e.g., tuition only - but keep in mind that others in your program will have gotten full funding, and you will be at a disadvantage. If you have a choice between good schools, go for the full funding.
It would be crazy to go to grad school for 6 years (a minimum for most PhD programs) without funding. Better to go to law school.</p>

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<p>I’m sure ams is trying to be helpful with that list, but it includes way way too many mediocre programs from which students would NEVER get a TT job. The job market this year has been horrendous - catastrophic - most of these programs probably should not exist except for people who want to study music for its own sake and/or are independently wealthy.</p>

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<p>I don’t know anyone who teaches musicology, but what I do know is that is kind of like openings at high end orchestras for performers, there aren’t a lot of jobs in the field that open up, and if anything, I suspect schools will be cutting back in areas like musicology/music given the financial state of thing so the number of slots may dwindle more then a bit. Plus professors like professional musicians tend to hold onto their jobs forever, so that makes the turnover even smaller.</p>

<p>If you seriously want to study music, then I would agree with the other posters, that you may want to think about going to a high level program, or forgetting about it. It is one of the times that where you went to school very well may matter, that given the limited number of slots, schools will probably have the choice of where they can hire from, and coming from let’s say Yale versus something like University of Wherever is going to weight heavily, in that situation you need all the edge you can get. Likewise, minimizing debt is probably wise, because even if you do find a teaching job, for a number of years it probably will be as an assistant position, and they don’t pay well…and who knows what you may end up doing? There also could be other jobs that come from a Phd in musicology, in theory you could become part of the staff of a music magazine like Gramaphone or a music critic, but likewise those kinds of jobs are limited.</p>

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<p>rjudd6010 - thanks, I’ve already looked at that in depth… I think that is why I was so overwhelmed.</p>

<p>kmcmom13 - most professors here don’t really think those schools are adequate, and I tend to agree based on what I’ve been reading. I’d rather reapply to the better schools and look for funding, then spend the money here. Additionally, the faculty isn’t really up my alley.</p>

<p>mamenyu - the reason I was looking at those was their connection to the composers I’m interested in and a few of the names on the faculty. Thanks for clearing that up! I did look at the wiki and you definitely see a pattern. I can assume getting into these schools is quite competitive. It makes me nervous.</p>

<p>I would be pleased to be required to teach, which I know is good for the CV but also out of interest’s sake. </p>

<p>Do most schools offer you full funding before you have to make a decision on where to go?</p>

<p>musicprnt - I do know there are cutbacks, from what I am reading, but considering the odds of me getting a job in my field now is nil, combined with that I want to do more schooling, I know this is the right path… I just want to do it right so I appreciate your feedback. I am prepared to perhaps have an assistant position versus tenure and that is okay - I have a few other projects and other background under my belt where I can always tend to find work. But I do feel like I am “missing” something, and know that I’d love to eventually be a professor, if that makes sense.</p>

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<p>^Perhaps IIs150, for your discipline, that is true. I do know that in our travels around top U.S. music programs we’ve run into a few Shulick & UBC grad-trained profs (including my son’s department head) but not in musicology.</p>

<p>Just for fun, I checked out where musicology profs at my son’s school (UMich) hail from: looks like at least 2 from U.Chicago (phd); 3 from Yale; 1 Columbia, 2 UCLA. Then a handful (5 or 6) who seemed to have international degrees (eg. Germany, Madrid etc.) and past histories at other schools. Notably, two of those did teach at some point at UCSC…which means based on your comment about fit/style and UCSC that Michigan might have some peers in your line/flavor of study. But generally, mamenyu’s list appears to be nuts-on in the field.</p>

<p>Because UMich is a large UG program in a school of music format, there are a lot of musicology pre-reqs for the various BMUS degrees – which might make for lots of teaching opportunity. We’ve generally found a lovely breadth of compositional styles/appreciation at the SOM, including avant garde, particularly among the electroacoustic and electronic composition afficionados ;)</p>

<p>Your interest in the connection between contemporaneous artists and post WWII composers sounds possibly like the kind of thing of interest to some of the “intermedia” courses at Umich’s SOM (a new ug degree in a joint endeavor by the art and design school and the performing arts school).</p>

<p>While I know nothing about your field, I have a feeling your work might be appreciated at UMich. They also are in the process of hiring at least one prof now (according to my son) because I know he’s been attending the lectures/evaluations for the selection. (Apparently the shortlist of candidates are required to give lectures to existing students, who then submit evaluations. Perhaps this is the norm.)</p>

<p>At any rate, best wishes in your search. I suspect a fun-filled road tour is in order.</p>

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<p>yes, your acceptance offer would include a financial offer.<br>
You don’t need to go somewhere with composers you like - you probably won’t be working with them; in musicology, your courses would be with PhD’s in music history and possibly theory (Yale, Harvard, Columbia, for example, offer PhD’s in music theory; schools out west, like Berkeley, Stanford, generally do not). You might look into music theory - which may fit your interest in contemporary music and visual arts, though the job market for that is even worse than for musicology (there’s a wiki for that too - and it makes for harrowing reading).
What you probably don’t want is to be an underpaid adjunct - it’s one thing to be an assistant professor on tenure track, another to be paid by the hour, which can be unsustainable. <a href=“http://www.wikihost.org/w/academe/music_theory_composition[/url]”>http://www.wikihost.org/w/academe/music_theory_composition&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Ils-</p>

<p>What you said makes sense, all I wanted to do was to make the point that it is very difficult to get the kind of jobs you get with a PHd in music and that any edge you can get is probably critical to career path. Nothing in music is easy, performers face the same thing, it is a tough field to get into and make a decent living and also tends not to be the most financially rewarding field, so IMO those who go into it have to absolutely love it, which seems to be where you are coming from:). I think people should go for their dreams, but do it with eyes open, and if you think you want to go into musicology, teach, then do it, and obviously you couldn’t do that as it stands right now:).</p>

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<p>Hey, first of all, let me say that your topic sounds fabulous.
Second, I’d like to assure you that I am an active member of the AMS (American Musicological Society), and that I have met and spoken with many students and professors from a myriad of programs. My topic is very similar in nature to yours, and so I have done a lot of journal and dissertation reading and I’ve noted the schools where these contributers have studied. While I would never pressume to be more in-the-know that anyone else who is also pursuing higher education in musicology, I thought I would put forward my opinion based on my experience:</p>

<p>I found that the notion of better job security based on the “distinguished” stature of your school is an outdated (and kind of classist) notion. From what I have seen, I would contest that what truly matters is: 1) teaching experience and positive students reviews, 2) publications and 3) presentational skills. Being an active lecturer, a popular instructor, and having publications to your name is far more important than someone looking at your application and going, “Oh wow, you went to _____?” (Because no one cares about that.)</p>

<p>Additionally, many of the school-listings omitted great West-Coast programs, such as USC, UCLA (which is actually more selective than UCBerkeley), and I don’t believe that anyone listed Stanford (??). For your research subject area in particular, UCLA (which is a warm climate- haha) or Bard (where Kyle Gann teaches, I believe) would be good picks.</p>

<p>You can expect to receive aid at most doctorals (all the ones that I have looked into do) that covers your tuition; many times, there is also a small stipend offered. You won’t be driving a Lexus, but you will get by. </p>

<p>Good luck, fellow musicologist! And, if I may borrow a vernacular phrase, “don’t listen to the haters” who subscribe to outmoded ideas about education-- create your own opportunities by research excellence and passion for the subject!</p>

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<p>Just a side note to the above post - although Kyle Gann is, indeed, a terrific musicologist and professor (my son has enjoyed multiple classes with him) - Bard does not currently offer a PhD in Musicology - Kyle Gann only teaches in the undergraduate college.</p>

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<p>Here are the latest NRC rankings from 2010. Schools are given two ranges of rankings and going through the methodology is a little bit tough and there are a couple of issues. Some programs are split historical musicology/ethnomusicology, and some lump them all together. But it does show which schools are the top programs, the next tier, and so on.</p>

<p>[NRC</a> Rankings Overview: Music - Faculty - The Chronicle of Higher Education](<a href=“NRC Rankings Overview: Music”>NRC Rankings Overview: Music)</p>

<p>According to this the top musicology programs (omitting ethno, folklore, composition/theory) are</p>

<p>UCLA, Harvard, Indiana, UCLA, Chicago, Princeton, Yale, Cornell, NYU, Duke, Columbia, Eastman, UPenn, UC Berkeley, Northwestern, Illinois, Michigan.</p>

<p>If you check the musicology jobs wiki for the past couple of years, students from these programs often get tenure track positions and prestigious postdoc appointments. IMO, CUNY and UNC should also be on this list, but I chose them strictly based on the NRC Rankings.</p>

<p>Above all, you want to find a program which has faculty that shares your interest (and would be willing to work with you.) In many ways, the programs do this selecting since many grad programs will not accept you if your research interests aren’t in line with at least one member of the faculty, and preferably more than that since faculty frequently leave. You wouldn’t want to go to a program with a big name professor only for him/her to leave for a different position the next year and then be stuck with no one to work with. </p>

<p>This happened to me. I was admitted to a Ph.D. program right out of college and came there to work with a certain faculty member. He passed away three years in and I had to reformulate my research in order for a member of the faculty to work with me on a dissertation. Finishing took me 10 years. </p>

<p>Above all research the programs and in your personal statement make a case for a fit. It’s ultra-competitive and they want to see that you’re someone who is worth admitting and giving a fellowship offer to. And hopefully that you’re someone who is going to make it through their program, and be in line for full time positions.</p>

<p>Best of luck!</p>

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<p>Stanford should be included (in place of one of the UCLA’s)</p>

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<p>I took the list from the NRC Research Council Rankings. Some schools are ranked lower than I would have thought, and I’m not sure why. It’s probably just my East coast bias as for why I mention UNC and CUNY.</p>

<p>I wouldn’t take off either Berkeley or UCLA: those are top programs (although UCLA lost Susan McClary, a giant in the field after the rankings were compiled.)</p>