Photography School; Commercial Interest

College Majors Visual Arts and Film Majors
1

<p>Hi I'm a high school senior currently in the middle of applying to colleges. I've had a knack for photography for a long time and run my own photography business locally. </p>

<p>I've been looking at all different kinds of schools, including RISD, MICA, SAIC, SVA, NYU, UofM, and possibly university of Cincinatti. </p>

<p>I'm locating in the heart of Michigan so Chicago is a great choice for me. I understand that SAIC has a great conceptual photography program, but it's treated more as a fine art then anything else. I know I want to go into commercial photography and definitely don't want to be a wishy washy artist with a flimsy degree. I understand that SVA has a fantastic photography program and churns out PROFESSIONAL photographers, which is what I'm looking for. </p>

<p>I'm really torn on this because I'm not sure what kind of education I can get at SAIC for SVA. I'm pretty sure I can get into most any school I apply to. I'm applying to RISD just because of it's prestige, but don't really know much about their photography department. I missed the deadline for NYU, but have been told I should submit late and push for an exception. How does NYU compare to SVA? </p>

<p>check out my website: Rob</a> Chron Photography </p>

<p>does any one have any words of wisdom on getting the type of education I'm describing here? Feelings on SAIC vs. SVA vs. RISD?
Thanks much.</p>

2

<p>can’t open the file now but try RIT?
they might give you pile of money</p>

3

<p>cameraguy64,</p>

<p>Nice pictures Rob. What are your academic stats like?</p>

4

<p>I have a 3.65 with AP and Honors classes. and a 26 on the act. </p>

<p>So pretty decent. nothing genius, but thats because I’ve concentrated on my photography so much. </p>

<p>I’ve been told I’m not going to have trouble getting into any art school. I’m a little worried about RISD, I cannot draw worth crap.</p>

5

<p>Cameraguy64,</p>

<p>Rob, let me start with The Ugly.
Why did you wait until a week AFTER most school’s deadlines to come here for advice? I need to slap you around kid. Dude, seriously.</p>

<p>The Bad
There really isn’t anything bad, I just threw that in because of the movie title. Although if I’m going to nitpik, the image of the girl in the silver dress isn’t as good as most of your work. </p>

<p>The Good
Very good commercial photography. In fact, here’s a Wheaty newsflash - you are already a commercial photographer. At your level, to improve your commercial work will mean interning and working with talented pros and shooting lots and lots of paid jobs. A four year school might improve your commercial skills a little but not a bunch. </p>

<p>BUT, a good 4 year program can teach you something that most good commercial photographers don’t know: fine art skills and knowledge. IMO, the thing that separates good commercial photographers from great ones is the artistic part. So don’t be so quick to dismiss the fine art side of this art form - it will help you greatly.</p>

<p>I would advise you to find a good fine arts program with very strong art history dept as well. Take a huge dose of both. You have the technical skills to take any picture you want, but the trick is knowing what to shoot and why. Fine art and art history will teach you that.</p>

<p>I would also recommend staying in a large metro area because of the commercial internships. NYC is most likely the best for you. L.A. and Chicago would also work well.</p>

<p>The schools that I would have recommended as first choices for you would have been NYU and U of Southern Cal. I would say both because of their amazing connections in the commercial world and both do a good job at fine art photo. But both of those ships have sailed (please see the part above where I need to slap you) so we will do the next best.</p>

<p>SVA and SAIC are both terrific and both well located for interning. Others here know more about both but I’d say both would be just fine. RISD is an interesting one for you. Certainly an excellent fine art program but I would really want to see you interning in your junior and senior years and I don’t know how you do that in Rhode Island. Am I underestimating Rhode Island? :slight_smile: Again, others here know more about RISD than I do.</p>

<p>Oh and for the record, none of the schools mentioned have any ‘flimsy’ degrees. :slight_smile: They are all the non-flimsy variety… just so you know.</p>

<p>Anyway, great work kid! Who ever taught you about studio lighting did a very good job. Lots of really good pictures, I like the image of the girl licking the guys face the best. Really good!</p>

<p>Best,
Wheaty</p>

6

<p>Wheaty,</p>

<p>Thanks so much for your well thought out reply. No need to slap me, I’m pretty much slapping myself at this point. I’ve missed the deadline for NYU and Pratt. I’m still considering sending my materials to pratt and seeing if they would make an exception. </p>

<p>Someone told me that the thing I would benefit the most from in college would be the connections I would make for later life and not what I would learn. My fear with going into a fine arts based photography program is that I would have more trouble making those connections. And that I would absolutely loath the program itself. SAIC is golden for me, its the perfect distance away, in a very big city. </p>

<p>However, you make a very very valid point, why go to school for something I can already do, maybe I should go for something more conceptual or art history based. SAIC has one of the best art history programs in the country, this I know. So does RISD. </p>

<p>I’ve already been told that no program would help me hone my skill to much, but to be truly sucessful I needed a business degree or background of some sort. So what does SAIC or NYU or Pratt or RISD offer in that department? I think with SAIC I can take classes elsewhere in the city, possibly Columbia? RISD I can take classes at brown (I wouldn’t be able to get into brown for their dual enrollment program though) What does SVA or Pratt offer? </p>

<p>When I say flimsy, I mean flimsy in a sense that they are hardcore art degrees, degrees that push artists to die a poetic death by eating paint :stuck_out_tongue: Not art degrees that are geared towards being in a professional business world, or making more $$ then the average artist. Which I would very much like to do. For example, I have noticed that a lot of art schools base their curriculum around galleries, viewing galleries, getting to know gallery curators, getting into galleries etc. I want nothing to do with galleries, that’s hard money and not what I want to do. I don’t want to do art for the sake of art, thats basically what I mean by flimsy art schools. I totally respect what those people do, it’s just not what I’m looking for. </p>

<p>The photo you love so much is actually a self portrait, the guy in question (being licked) is me. I’ve actually had very little formal photography training. I pride myself in being almost entirely self taught. I attended two of the NAPP sponsored GAPW workshops in the Smokies and in Moab in 08 and and 09, where I made friends with Matt K, but other then that, I’ve never had any formal classes or instructors. Just a capitalistic side that led me to get new equipment and then a knack for figuring stuff out. </p>

<p>Thanks much!</p>

7

<p>Cameraguy64,</p>

<p>Let me state some things that are obvious and also maybe not so obvious:</p>

<p>1.) A common myth is that the purpose of college is to make more money. It’s not. The purpose of college is to gain knowledge. Period. Now it is true that often this newly gained knowledge translates into dollars somewhere down the line but that’s not the goal of college.</p>

<p>I raise this point because I think it’s especially important for you and where you are with photography. I’m suggesting that learning about fine art photography and art history will make you a better, more rounded, and more knowledgable photographer (and person!).</p>

<p>If you go down this path your goal will be to continuously be greedy in taking all that you can from whomever is willing to teach you. You might not see it now but learning how to creatively use 4x5 Polaroid transfers and wet plate development will absolutely make you better with your favorite 80 gazillion pixel Nikon blaster. A fine art program will do this for you.</p>

<p>Bigger than those technical things, a fine art school will teach you how to see in a different way and to become more critical.</p>

<p>You probably know all this but it is worth thinking about again I think.</p>

<p>2.) Commercial photography and fine art photography are not mutually exclusive. Both art forms can, and do, exist within the same photographer. Herb Ritts and Richard Avedon are probably the best examples I can think of but there are many more. Here, take a look at one of L.A.'s hot photographers, Frank Ockenfels:</p>

<p>[Frank</a> Ockenfels | fwo3.com](<a href=“http://www.fwo3.com/]Frank”>http://www.fwo3.com/)</p>

<p>Click on the links on his main page and you will see mostly fine art work. Cool stuff but maybe that’s not you. But, look at the bottom of his website… click on ‘advertising’, ‘entertainment’, and ‘music’ and click all those images. </p>

<p>Now tell me, is Mr. Ockenfels a fine arts photographer or is he a commercial photographer? I don’t think he cares what you call him because he’s enjoying working in both areas. And here’s the kicker: he is more appealing to his commercial clients because of his fine art work. Knowledge trumps all.</p>

<p>So I guess all I’m saying is this, don’t limit yourself by thinking you are just this, or just that. Learn it all just for the sake of learning. Then go out there and knock 'em dead!</p>

<p>Best,
Wheaty</p>

8

<p>Universityof Cincinnati is actually still taking applications, at least the conservatory is. If you like Chicago, check out Columbia College. It has quite the respected photography program. if you want to check out one profs
[Museum</a> of Contemporary Photography](<a href=“http://www.mocp.org/collections/mpp/damato_paul.php]Museum”>http://www.mocp.org/collections/mpp/damato_paul.php)</p>

9

<p>Alright, so I’m in the middle of finishing up my portfolio and my essay. </p>

<p>I have a inquiery about what colleges like saic and risd are looking for in a portfolio. </p>

<p>Are they looking for strength in one area? or a general theme? or how versatile you are capable of being? For example, I have some graphic and layout design that I could include in my portfolio, but it doesn’t really fit in with the rest of the photographs, plus they might stand out negatively. I could also include some of my wedding and school team photos just to show I’m capable of doing that, and managing large groups of people etc. </p>

<p>I’ve picked about 21 images, and I need to knock at least one out. Most schools want between 15-20 images. </p>

<p>Here is what I have thus far:</p>

<p>[College</a> Portfolio - Rob Chron Photography](<a href=“http://www.robchron.com/Other/College-Portfolio/15419310_B5anB]College”>http://www.robchron.com/Other/College-Portfolio/15419310_B5anB)</p>

<p>Which would you take out? Thoughts?</p>

<p>I’m also embarking on the monster that is the RISD app. They ask for drawings, which I’m not capable of doing, at all. I was told that I shouldn’t submit the drawings because my portfolio was strong enough to stand on it’s own. I had the leisure of not having to jump through ALL of their ridiculous hoops. If they accepted me, then I was meant to be there, and if they didn’t, oh well, obviously the school wasn’t a good fit for me. But upon reading some of the stuff on here, I’m starting to think this is a poor idea. Thoughts?</p>

<p>Thanks much :)</p>

10

<p>Make sure you check on each schools website to see if they say anything specific. Most schools like to see a variety of things, for example, my D was applying as an illustration major, but her portfolio consisted of photography, and graphic design pieces as well. Her portfolio was accepted at SAIC, but she chose not to apply there. as it was too conceptual for her.</p>

11

<p>cameraguy64,</p>

<p>Photo portfolios are a little different from painting or drawing portfolios. Reviewing professors and Admissions staff want to see a range of painting skills so a painters portfolio should reflect that. Photo professors instantly see your technical skills so they will look at your portfolio to see your thought process and progression. Why did he choose to shoot from this angle, why this lighting setup… that type of thing. Because of this you want to show a series, or theme, of pictures, not just individual shots that might be good on their own.</p>

<p>The very best approach would be to pretend you are going to install large prints of your work in a gallery. I know that probably sounds awful to you but it’s how your images will be viewed on the other end.</p>

<p>So, in your case, my recommendation would to have two series of pictures: portraits and landscapes. Put together 10 of your strongest portraits in a series. I would put your 2nd strongest portrait 1st and your strongest portrait last. The other 8 should be strung together to help tell the story of your talent. Order matters. Now do the same for a landscape series.</p>

<p>That would give you 2 series of 10 shots each and then you can scale it down depending on the school’s portfolio requirements.</p>

<p>As far as the images themselves:

  • delete the pic of the girl with windblown hair sitting on the edge of something. You have better.
  • add the self portrait with the girl licking your face. IMO, it’s one of your strongest images and it’s the one I remember.
  • the b/w upside down girl smoking is very good.
  • I would recommend leading off with the boxer image. It’s good and it will get attention.
  • I would close out the portrait series with the licking image.
  • I’m unsure of your scripted tagline at the bottom of some of the images. If you have time I might delete these copyright/taglines. If not, don’t worry about it.
  • I would delete the decorated tree image and I’d delete the girl with tea cups. Both are fine but I think you have better plus neither fits well with the series concept.
  • No team photos. They’re fine but they don’t fit the series.
  • No wedding pics.</p>

<p>Regarding RISD and their portfolio drawing requirements:
I would just make your best effort at drawing something. It will be poor but it will show your willingness to make an effort to comply. If you submit without a drawing it might send the ‘prima donna’ message and you don’t want that. So just make a good effort at sketching part of a bicycle and don’t worry about it.</p>

<p>Sorry for the longwinded answers.
Best,
Wheaty</p>

12

<p>Wheaty, </p>

<p>Long winded answers are much appreciated. Don’t worry about that.</p>

<p>SAIC asks for ten images. Can I do two sets of 10? I’d like to be able to do things in series but wasn’t entirely sure about how college portfolio systems would work to show my series. I have the makings of a very good fem fatale series if I could make that work. </p>

<p>To be honest, I don’t love the self portrait, there is another included in the gallery itself. But the one you talk about, to me, is just goofy and not very professional. It doesn’t jive with the tone of the rest of my images. </p>

<p>I’d also had the thought I was going to delete the bw with the girl and the dog, I have better work. </p>

<p>Someone had the opinion on the bw forest one and the waterfall that they were great images, but nothing spectacular, they looked like they could be windows backgrounds. Agree disagree? </p>

<p>I’ve received very good feedback on the one with the tree, and I feel like there should be at least 1 hdr in the portfolio. Maybe the photo itself isn’t as good as it is interesting? </p>

<p>The watermark is only on my website to prevent thievery and will not show up in submissions. </p>

<p>Thanks much
ROB</p>

13

<p>Alright, I just reread your post. “scale it down based on each schools reqs” </p>

<p>Gotcha. </p>

<p>I just added another of the girl in the red dress, I think i like it better. Agree? Fits better with the fem fatale series.</p>

14

<p>Rob,</p>

<p>Yep, you’ve got it, just go with 2 series for SAIC, 5 and 5 if that’s all they allow.</p>

<p>I agree, drop the girl with dog. I really REALLY like adding the girl laying on her side with the purple-ish paisley round pillow. </p>

<p>If you go fem fatale series, then look at adding:

  • red hair girl with purple bracelette,
  • straight on portrait of dark hair girl with light brown eyes,
  • and the above girl with round pillow mentioned above.</p>

<p>The water drop picture doesn’t go with anything but I might keep it anyway. It’s cool enough to break a Wheaty rule. :)</p>

<p>For landscapes: in your travel section under ‘smokey’ is a shot of a forest pathway with a random umbrella laying there. The whole scene is tilted. I’d add that one I think.</p>

<p>I’ll go look at red dress and the landscapes you mentioned.</p>

<p>Best,
Wheaty</p>

15

<p>Rob,</p>

<p>No, don’t add red dress on couch. Red dress through rainy window is 10x better.</p>

<p>Under landscapes:

  • I strongly advise adding the vines on the blue wall.
  • I like the snowy creek image and maybe add that.</p>

<p>Shifting gears…
Don’t underestimate the art department at U of M. I’ll bet it’s very good and U of M is obviously a very good school. Art history is probably excellent. My concern would again be about internships in Ann Arbor. </p>

<p>Wheaty</p>

16

<p>Wheaty, </p>

<p>Would a portrait series as is or a fem fatale series be better. I feel like work included in fem fatale series would be weaker then a general portrait series. Especially using the photos you mentioned above. I just think thats kinda frowned upon and defeats the point of a series. Is it lazy to take a bunch of assorted portraits and slap a portrait series title on them? </p>

<p>I’m going to add the vines, the snowy creek, and the umbrella ones. These were all ones that have passed through my mind. </p>

<p>What if I did a mini fem fatale series, say like 5 images? A portrait series with like 5. and then call my landscapes the elements because it’s all weather, and firey, and ice, water etc. I dropped a couple, arranged em in the order I want, and gave them captions with series titles and numbers. Go look at that above link now, better?</p>

<p>On UofM, I’m aware of how fantastic it is. Anything uofm is superb. do you know anything specific about it? I am going to apply there just as my backup plan.</p>

<p>I called saic to ask about some random stuff and got a clarifcation. they want 10-20. not just 10. The common app is worthless.</p>

17

<p>Rob,</p>

<p>Terrific! Those 20 shots show good range, good perception, and very good skills. The last minor tweak I would recommend is a slight shift in the order. I would:</p>

<ul>
<li>Open with your Portrait Series in the order you have them,</li>
<li>Then the Fem Series,</li>
<li>Then the Elements Series.</li>
<li>Slide #2 Elements (vines) to number 1,</li>
<li>Slide #1 Elements (water drop) to number 10.</li>
</ul>

<p>I like all 20. That’s a solid portfolio Rob, really good work. It presents in a nice order too.</p>

<p>Make sure that you triple check on the technical specs on how each school wants to receive the images. A surprising number of kids make a fatal error in this last step and upload images that are not formatted correctly or are the wrong size.</p>

<p>Safety schools for artists might be an oxymoron. UofM might prove to be the toughest for you to get into just because of your 26 ACT score. I don’t know that much about their arts admission process. I would say your chances at both SVA and SAIC are very good but universities are more difficult to forecast. I also don’t know enough about RISD to forecast how they will judge an ‘all-photo’ applicant.</p>

<p>But it doesn’t matter. You’ve done the work, all that’s left is to send it all in and see who gives you the love.</p>

<p>Nice work kid!
Best of luck,
Wheaty</p>

18

<p>Wheaty,</p>

<p>Portfolio is done. Score. </p>

<p>Now I have to wrap up my statement. I hate to ask anything else of you. But thoughts on this? I think it needs to be slightly tighter and more statement like, but I’m not entirely sure how to go about doing it. </p>

<p>Prompt:
The statement of purpose is a personal essay that provides insight into your specific reasons for applying to SAIC. In the statement of purpose, you should discuss your interests, creative influences, educational goals, and anything else that is important for us to know regarding your interest in art, design, and visual culture. Through your statement of purpose the Undergraduate Committee on Admissions is interested in finding out more about you as an individual and how you represent yourself in a written format.</p>

<p>During my sophomore year in high school I took an AP Language Class. Two of the pieces we read during the year were by Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau, both known for a philosophy called transcendentalism, which means to rise above. I almost immediately wrote them off as mere hippies, people with no capital drive in their life. I pondered how they could live out life in their own world, letting everyone fly by them. It seemed hypocritical to use the language that only society provided for the own poeticism, but to stay away from so many other aspects of society itself. It wasn’t till pondering myself an artist that it dawned on me that what I constantly strive for is exactly what those “hippies” wrote about and exactly how they lived. It opened my eyes to my style as a photographer and allowed me to more consciously progress what I was doing.</p>

<p>Since I was eleven, I’ve been taking pictures and doing everything in my power to make enough money doing it, to get better at it. Every photograph I took always had the same goal: make it interesting. It was this unwritten and unrecognized ideal that brought me above the other 11 year olds – as few as there may have been. It didn’t take me long to find that part of being a photographer was showing things in the most interesting way possible. Seven years later and now I strive for my work to transcend anything else done by anyone, to be totally fresh, ambitious and edgy. And it’s this goal, and all the steps leading up to it, which has put me, where I am.</p>

<p>However in a world with 6 billion people, it becomes difficult to be on top, even harder to be an original, near impossible to surpass everyone. A photographer’s tool kit no longer includes only a camera; it includes knowledge of light, technology, composure, people, and business. I’m cavalier enough to say that I hold all of this. But to be a truly successful photographer, I think one has to have one more thing, a working knowledge of art and the world around it. This encompasses all types of art history and conceptualism; everything I understand SAIC to be. In the same breadth that I’m cavalier, I can be humble in saying, that I lack knowledge of fine art – both as a photography medium and on it’s own. And I believe a fine arts education will give me a way to transcend the world of photography.</p>

<p>It is still important to me however, to maintain appeal to the average man. I want people to ooh and ahh over what I do, I don’t want to be viewed as a paint-eating artist, or even someone that holes up in a cabin for years at time. I want to be recognized in the business, commercial, and big industry worlds. As much as I can take from Emerson and Thoreau, I don’t want there life style, or reputation as an artist. Much of my inspiration comes from artists like Frank Ockenfels, and Joey L. People who do everything well. I like to provide the average man with a way to transcend through my art.</p>

<p>Much of my work is done on commission for portraits, primarily senior photographs. I try and offer a very commercial charm to each senior, this allows me to still tread in edgy waters as far as being creative goes, but still keep my clients happy. During the winter season, or the off-season, I offer the people around me a chance to be model. The offer is seldom turned down and allows me to take complete control, no more worrying about mom over my shoulder, or about time constraints, it’s time for me to experiment as an artist rather then a photographer. Photography becomes my medium at that point, rather then being my job.</p>

19

<p>Rob,</p>

<p>Well I’m definitely not the guy to ask for advice on the English language. I would take this straight to your favorite English teacher at school and ask for help. </p>

<p>Still, I know a few things about what you are asking so here ya go:</p>

<ul>
<li>write in your own voice. Is your writing similar to how you talk every day? It should be.</li>
<li>write from your core. You want the reader to know who you are and how you feel about photography.</li>
<li>demonstrate your commitment to your art.</li>
<li>write about why this school in particular will make a difference in your life.</li>
<li>write to match who you are. If you are funny, write funny. If you’re serious, write serious.</li>
</ul>

<p>Essays go a long way for the school in helping to determine the “fit” of a student. Being accurate on writing about what you want, where you are now in your art, and especially, who you are, will yield a good fit for both you and the school.</p>

<p>If your essays match who you are then a ‘no’ from a school in April will actually be a good thing. It will mean the school felt you wouldn’t be either happy and/or successful in their program. That’s good because it frees you up to find a better match for your needs.</p>

<p>That’s about all I know on this writing stuff. Sorry kid. </p>

<p>But like I said, I want you to print out what you have and ask your English teacher to look it over. If he, or she, is busy then track down your valedictorian and ask them for help. Tell them you’ll trade them help for a photo session! :)</p>

<p>Best,
Wheaty</p>