Funding is there for women in physics to get a PhD, even without perfect grades. No… no one expects them to be Stephen Hawking. I know — my kid got into PhD programs, and she definitely had some issues with her grades. But she compensated with good research experience, strong recommendations, and a high Physics GRE score. If your kid damages her college GPA by rushing through coursework she isn’t prepared for, it will hurt. Not all colleges will allow grade replacements if she retakes, too. And she needs enough time as an undergrad to build research experience and relationships with mentors for her recommendations.
@intparent I’m baffled by the implication that she’s rushing through coursework. If she stayed in HS, this coursework would have been unavailable to her and she would be no better prepared after two more years than she is now. By the end of sophomore year, she was locked out of every math and science class she wanted to take junior and senior year. Discrete math and calculus would have been completely new no matter what, whether she takes it now or later. Better to take it now when her interest is burning than after burning herself out with non math and science HS electives she has zero interest in. Her school just was not offering a good education either. In two years, she did zero research papers in any subject so it wasn’t helping prepare her in a broader way for college. She is old enough to know grades matter. If she retakes a class she tanked when she was 15 and a school dings her for that, it’s probably not a school she wants to go to.
Ok, it sounds like she’s really interested in math and physics but didn’t get the proper pre-requisites, and her high school was a poor fit.
Also, you need to know what the curve is. In the class you quote a 56% may be a B. So, she may be getting a low percentage number but getting a decent grade.
However she needs to right the ship asap: unlike, say, English, math is sequential and cumulative. She can’t have gaps. Try to see where things stand now, about 2-3 weeks before the end of class.
She’s a junior, right?
This would be her schedule if she’s interested in majoring in math at a college where that had many good outcomes (including grad school -math grad school is peculiar).
She’s taking general physics 1, discrete math, calculus 1, and English composition, right?
Next semester, can she take college level 1 or 2 in a foreign language, a social science or history, calculus 2, and physics2.
Then, senior year, Philosophy, calculus 3, either another sort of math (linear algebra) or more physics, and one more level in foreign language. Finally, differential equations, history/social science, and two classes of her choice.
That schedule would keep most college options open.
A great option for math (or physics) is Penn. She’d be able to take a placement test during orientation and start right where she is. Her scholarship would cover 4 years and such a university would offer her a full schedule of advanced math and physics.
Obviously that’s assuming she can get at least a B in her STEM classes this semester and the scores you think she can get, plus interesting ECs and essays. I’m not talking about prestige here - I’m talking about kids who absolutely love math and want to go as far as possible on that path (v.many of the universities you listened, where math is something done so that it can be taught in elementary/middle/high school, or taken as an auxiliary to another major. At Kutztown, for example, there’s a huge drop off after calculus 2, which served as the major end point even for stem students - at other universities, freshmen generally start in calculus 2 and advanced freshmen naturally start after that. She’d have many peers.)
You need to look beyond the colleges with which her cc has an agreement: if she has mastered the knowledge and skills, the placement test will let her start where she’s best placed at, regardless of where the college is and whether it has an agreement with your college.
Try to go and visit Bryn Mawr btw.
If she’s “into math”, Bryn Mawr may be a great fit. It’s highly selective so she needs to do well in her classes and SAT obviously, but the young women there are very supported in their math or physics aspirations.
Yes, Temple is the best on the list, and Temple Honors would offer a great system.
There is no ship to right. She hasn’t gotten any math grades at all this semester - she’ll find out her grades when they are posted because the classes don’t have traditional assessments so she has no way to know how she’s doing until final grades come out. I am just assuming her grades won’t be the best because the grading has the reputation of being harsh. The 56% was a kid I know who is at MIT and it was a straight grade - that was not her grade although she had plenty of grades like that in HS where she was flunking but among the top grades in the class. STEM just seems to have different grading standards. I have heard of that but not seen it up close until now (except for friends who took the dreaded organic chem).
She will likely decide to apply to some elite schools but I don’t think she’s really interested in starting over and doing two extra years unless it’s something really special. I also think she doesn’t have that gene that would make her want to compete to get into the best school just for its own sake. Temple Honors’ average GPA is 3.95/4.0 so I think she’s out for that. Their average SAT is pretty high, too. She will apply but she’s got her feet on the ground. I mean, not everybody can go into elite programs. That’s why they are considered elite. There is a pretty big discrepancy in her SAT scores (from beginning of 10th grade) - 720CR/590M. Her math score is pretty average. It will come up a bit but I don’t know if it would come up enough to qualify her for places like Bryn Mawr and Penn. I don’t know if she’s even interested. Honestly, the school she’s most interested in is ESU.
Ok, got it.
Do you know your EFC?
Can you afford it?
If you don’t know it can you look it up and tell us if you can afford it?
(It’s really weird she didn’t get a midterm grade or anything else 
)
It all depends on whether she’s really interested in math for its own sake or if her goal is to be a math teacher. Or if he wants to study Physics to be part of a team that discovers something that makes life better or if she wants to teach science.
ESU suffers from low funding though.
Temple Honors is selective but guarantees 4 years of housing and excellent support. If she doesn’t make it it’s still the best university in the bunch.
She wouldn’t have to ‘do over’ her calc classes. She’d have advanced standing, meaning she would have 4 years of scholarship eligibility but would start in sophomore or junior classes. After completing these she’d take advanced classes or graduate classes of her choice. However the experience at a decent 4-year college would be different than at a CC for certain classes and would allow her to stretch. In addition, being a freshman with advanced standing would allow her to process at her age academically but would provide her with freshman housing (beside Honors, there’s a “women in science” living learning community to support first year women in stem, for instance.)
It all depends whether she likes math/physics for their sake (she finds it fun, it tickles her brain, etc) or her goals (industry? Grad school?)… Which is obviously too early to know.
The EFC/financing college situation is fairly complicated, actually, so, no, I really have no idea what it would be or whether it could be afforded. And it could change a lot so I’m not speculating right now. We’ll cross that bridge when it comes. I’m paying out of pocket now for that criminally low tuition at community. Classes are small, professors are top-notch. It’s really been amazing (I have a younger daughter who is also there).
The math professors don’t believe in grades. They have to give them in the end, though LOL.
She wants to study pure math and discover the physical properties of the universe. She is assistant teaching at a school right now (math) but her goal is pure research and teaching is definitely not on her agenda. Pure math is what turns her on. She does math in her spare time for fun. She hasn’t gotten an A in math since 6th grade but it’s where her mind is at all the time. Her room is littered with proofs she’s tried to work out. I don’t understand any of what she does so I can’t really say how precocious her thinking/understanding is, but she is definitely interested and focused in a way you don’t normally see. Becoming a math major was the best thing that ever happened to her, honestly.
Are you talking about Temple for starting over? No, at Temple, she would start as a junior because there are agreements. I don’t know how another school would handle her credits, though. Some would balk because of her age and because she didn’t finish high school. It depends on the school but I think the more competitive the school, the more picky they are about transferring in credits especially if earned while in HS. I don’t think she would have to take over classes, more that schools would insist on their own gen ed sequence. Or literally make her start over from scratch in terms of # of credits needed to graduate but with advanced math classes. MIT is explicit in saying they won’t take credits earned in HS. I can graduate her at the end of this year or she can take the GED. That’s the part where I’m not sure which direction to take because I can’t tell how it will impact things down the line. It’s complicated by the fact that once you register as a homeschooler where we are, the compulsory education law changes and she has to go until she graduates. She’s no longer allowed to just drop out. She might be able to sign up for the GED soon - you need 30 college credits to be allowed to take it before 18.
You may want to ask @sbjdorlo about MIT offering advanced placement for completion of college math courses while in high school. Even if there is no credit given toward the number of credits needed to graduate, getting subject credit and advanced placement can still be quite valuable, in allowing the student to continue taking advanced courses without having to repeat what she already knows.
Note that if she enters as a frosh at a college that gives credit toward graduation as well as subject credit and advanced placement, she could use the transferred credit to graduate early if she wants, or stay the full eight semesters to take additional electives, finances permitting.
This should be figured out before college applications, and before any decision with permanent consequences is made (e.g. graduating with a GED and then taking college courses after that, which would commit her to the transfer pathway).
@ucbalumnus I have no control over knowing what EFC and available resources will be and it’s not going to change so I just have to make the best decisions I can. I can’t really get a good answer on when she should graduate or take the GED because all the schools view it differently. In some cases, it won’t even come up. If a school wants her, I figure they will direct her to the best possible scenario - either applying as a transfer or a freshman. Some schools just don’t take transfer credits. She is not going to get into MIT but, of course, if she applied and was accepted she would be happy to do 4 years there. Fundamentally, she wants to be done early.
No matter what, unless she got a full ride, 4 years at a school would never be cheaper than just paying for 2.
The fact she’s interested in pure math complicates things.
Because Pure Maths is a field, like Investment Banking or Acting, that requires specific undergraduate colleges. :It has nothing to do with the quality of instruction. Academic positions are so scarce that there are excellent professors everywhere. The difference is in support, connections, resources.
Some flagships’ honors colleges may help.
@“b@r!um” may have ideas.
- since she’s going to CC for a very low cost, she should max out on their math offerings. The blue print schedule I provided above as an example ensures she qualifies for any college - it has 4 courses per semester but if she can handle it she could add an extra math class (or, take linear algebra next semester for instance). Regardless of a singular focus on math she needs all core classes each year. The benefit of dual enrollment for a ‘spiky’ kid is that they take the non spike classes for only one semester. So, out of 8-10 classes, they have 4 non spike classes and the rest for their academic passion (s).
- she should graduate high school. The kind of school where they’ll teach proof based math and where she’ll find peers will need that. Since she’s enrolled in a CC at low cost, no need to rush graduation.
- when you say she wants to be done asap is it so she can get into a math PhD ? Assion for proofs is contradictory to wanting to drop out. I may not understand correctly?
- is she registered for standardized testing? Has she prepped seriously? (She likely finds the test boring - but it requires specific skills that need to be mastered).
- sounds like merit aid would be a good idea no matter what due to uncertainty in financial matters. High test scores and a 3.5+ GPA will be needed - beside Temple Honors, USC Columbia’s top scholars, UAlabama’s automatic scholarships for high scorers, UTDallas Mcdermott, UF Benacquisto (did she take the PSAT this October?), Ole Miss… are all worth checking out right now in preparation for their early deadlines next year.
A frosh entering with substantial transfer credit still has the option of graduating early. Of course, this means doing so at a college where the credit counts toward the number of credits to graduate, as well as subject credit and advanced placement.
It depends on the school. At Drexel, they limit freshman to 12 credits no matter where it comes from. It really comes down to the school’s policies. And the ones we talked to said they would shuffle around the applications for whichever made most sense so it didn’t matter if she applied in the wrong category. And some accept credit earned while dual enrolled and some not. All of the schools we talked to said they would consider a transfer as a freshman for financial aid purposes even if she transferred in as a junior. She won’t have used any financial aid before she transfers. I know that you only get a certain number of years eligibility for certain things, like state grants, so I think she can do that? I think it’s clear, though, that she’s unlikely to get merit aid (because of grades, etc.) or need-based aid unless she’s very, very lucky. Her physics SAT II was low (660) after prepping for the test for a whole year in Honors Physics so I don’t think she’s going to come out with stellar scores on those. She can’t take any AP classes so she’ll be self-studying for those and hoping for the best. I mean, she has zero APs from her freshman and sophomore year (she didn’t test into any). I really think she should aim for a middle of the road state school that may reward her for high SATs to boost their numbers - she can concentrate on doing well there and then see where she wants to go. She won’t be able to finish college otherwise.
@MYOS1634 she is doing a math major so maxing out their courses that way plus planning an extra course to get a CS certificate. She’s taking whatever core courses are in the sequence (HUM, Lab Science, SS, etc.) My bone of contention is I think she needs to be taking a foreign language alongside because that is not a requirement. I don’t know if I can get her to do it. She’s really just not motivated by scholarships, prestige, etc. And she’s already loaded up. I don’t blame her because her HS had a lot of tragedy and mental illness centered around intense academic pressure and a constant drive to get into the best possible school. She’s running away from that mentality because, frankly, it’s not healthy.
Her possibility for graduating HS is a worthless homeschool diploma. She can get one any time after the close of next semester. Or I can drag it out and she can graduate when she graduates with her Associate’s. The dilemma is whether she should graduate earlier or later. There are varying opinions depending on the receiving schools she wants to go to. Most of the schools, frankly, have no clue because hardly anyone does what she’s doing. It’s still rare.
I think she wants to be done earlier rather than later so she can do some things like travel abroad and learn a foreign language and maybe study in a different country and also just get down to the meat of it. She really just wants to do math/physics so I think she’s thinking she will be bored by all of the electives of college. She’d already taken 4 college classes in different subjects before starting this degree and has a sense of what it’s like to sit in classes that bear no direct relation to your goals. I loved that in college but she is ho-hum. She’s well-rounded, though. She’s working her way through the classics of literature on her own.
I’ve already posted her SAT scores (720CR/590M) which she took at the beginning of sophomore year and she did find a school that let her take the PSAT last month. Her old high school is letting her take two AP tests this year and she’ll try for three next year (for European universities). I have no idea if she’ll pass. She has done some test prep but it’s time-consuming (and, yes, boring). I think she’s banking on her math score rising as she’s exposed to calculus. She is a pretty good test-taker. I expect she will top out with at least a 1450, maybe higher? She took it before she even had HS geometry.
Thanks for all of the southern colleges suggestions. That was an angle I was looking at closely because they tend to be OK with lower GPAs and reward high test scores well. Temple Honors looks completely out of reach though wanting basically a 4.0. It’s local, though, so they might be more familiar with the tougher grading she’s had and be more understanding.
Dual enrollment= AP in terms of the way rigor is assessed (with a nod to the faster pace and greater autonomy required by the CC, unless it’s known as a terrible cc.)
SAT subjects don’t matter for merit aid. If the university she’s applying to requires them, the best time to take them is in May or June junior year (so, this year) - Physics, Math2, English? Her earlier score isn’t really indicative, and 660 in physics is quite decent for a sophomore.
But all in all, what will matter in admissions is her SAT - and/or her PSAT score for scholarship purpose (not admissions).
Has she taken the PSAT this October? A good PSAT score can open a lot of good options.
That is good to know about SAT subject tests. She did so badly on the physics on (although better than the other kids in the class), she was put off them. Yes, she took the PSAT. She was lucky to find a school that let her take it.
Sorry, we cross posted, so I hadnt read your reply when I posted mine.
An alternative could be either a university with no distribution requirements (but these tend to be highly selective: Amherst, Hamilton, Grinnell).
Uva’s Jefferson Scholars don’t have distribution requirements.
Languages are essential for a Math PhD (French, Russian in particular). Study abroad can include the math program in Hungary, an exchange year with Polytechnique, Oxford, Cambridge.
What are distribution requirements? Do you mean like 4 science, 3 English, 2 Social Science, etc.? I am really pushing the foreign language (I am fluent in the language I learned in college - German) but she’s been resisting, although she is taking a low-level community class. I want to send her over there. She took Spanish for two years but literally learned nothing. Typical HS foreign language experience of a disinterested student.
I’m surprised they want languages for a Math PhD but it makes sense. A guy I know was telling me about his friend who is writing his diss on Hegel with zero knowledge of German. I think it must be a pretty fly by night PhD program. I don’t know that she will even be that kind of scholar, KWIM? Maybe.
This source limits its methodology to undergraduate programs: https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/undergrad-research-programs.
She needs to read research done in other languages as well as present her work in major “math” countries. France and Russia are not only major math countries (check out Fields Medals) but they insist on publishing in their language and/or having it spoken. So… French and Russian. If she knows one well, she can have reading- knowledge-only of the other. French is WAY easier than Russian in case it influences which she chooses for full knowledge and which for reading knowledge only. You can tell her it’ll open Math doors. Have her look up Cedric Vilani.
Yes, distribution requirements are all the subjects required to graduate -1/3 major, 1/3-1/2 distribution requirements, then the rest is electives. At colleges with no distribution requirements students take whatever they want.