Physics PhD?

College Majors Science Majors
1

<p>I just glanced at the thread asking whether or not a PhD in Chem was a wise choice, and I found myself scratching my head at the dismal responses and wondering whether or not the same was true for a Physics PhD...</p>

<p>I realize that the career outlook is essentially government research or professorship, but a life in academia is very appealing to me. I come from a family of -- recently, at least -- relatively modest means, so I don't have lavish expectations to live up to. Physics is my passion, and -- at least as I stand at the time being -- I'd be much happier pursuing a career in physics and relegating myself to academia as opposed to pursuing another, possibly more lucrative field.</p>

<p>Is the job outlook really so bleak that it should discourage me from following these ambitions -- or at least to seriously consider whether it's worth it? I suppose the answer I'm hoping for is that physics (more on the theoretical side, if the difference between theoretical and experimental camps will greatly influence the answer) and chemistry differ greatly in career outlooks, but I'd rather face reality than live in an idealized delusion.</p>

2

<p>If physics is your passion-- pursue it and do your best at it. Academia may not be the highest paying job in the world, but better to have a job you love than to be unhappy. I think there will always be a place for research and teaching (IMHO).
Theoretical physics grad student positions are competitive, but it seems the people who have a passion for it enjoy the challenge and the focus. I am not sure of the job prospects outside academia, but I believe one can look at nuclear engineering-but that is not always appealing to theorists- and there is teaching at any level.</p>

3

<p>I don’t know if it’s too late for you, but I would advise you to double major in something else because that seems to be what helps physics majors get jobs. Particularly, CS. Since you’re interested in the theoretical side, I’d double major in math. I think an applied mathematics degree would greatly benefit anyone’s resume. I mean, I think you should highly consider if it’s worth it. I think physics grads end up doing some kind of engineering, which I wouldn’t say was exactly what they wanted. </p>

<p>An article I read recently talked about a need for qualified people in physics to teach high school classes, but I doubt you want to do that, lol. I think there’s a job market for physicists, but I wouldn’t say it’s going to be easy at all to get a position in academia.</p>

<p>Interesting fact from 2008:</p>

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<p>Getting the job in academia is extremely difficult when there will be 1000 other people with amazing resumes applying for every single opening that comes up in the field. If it is really something you love, then go for it. If you are a freshman in college, then please don’t jump to conclusions to quickly, and make sure you explore all of your options.</p>

5

<p>I’m glad that, especially compared to the Chem PhD page that so intimidated me, you’re all making points besides simply “doom and gloom.” </p>

<p>@Penny – thank you for your encouraging words. That, the idea that there will be a niche of sorts for qualified and passionate physicists, is nice to hear.</p>

<p>@CalDud – I certainly wouldn’t use the phrase ‘too late’, especially with regard to pursuing a double major. Ever since I decided to declare as physics I’ve known that I would pair that with a double in the applied math tract, and you’re right in saying that high school physics is not what I have in mind. I don’t doubt that securing positions in academia will prove difficult, but I’ve never worried about things being ‘difficult’ or ‘unlikely’ – I just need ‘possible’. </p>

<p>@aggieengineer – As I said, well I supposed typed, a moment ago, the fact that the odds will be stacked against me is not necessarily something that will intimidate me to a great extent. I relish the competition and the opportunity to go “resume to resume” with someone, because I know how strong my resume is and how much stronger I want to make it. </p>

<p>And now to no one in particular: In fairness, I am a freshman in college (technically still pre-frosh), but certainly not your average freshman with respect to my knowledge of and commitment to the field of my interest. I’m not, for example, the person who has fond childhood memories of a favorite dog and nightmares about high school chemistry but still decides that a career in veterinary medicine is their inevitable future. I’ve been formulating theories (to use the word very loosely) on everything from the origin of the universe to Hawking Radiation to dark matter – some admittedly crack pot, but others eerily similar to existing theories proposed by notable physicists (by ‘eerily’ I simply mean to emphasize the similarities in some aspects of my completely conceptual ideas and their mathematically derived conclusions) – since I was a sophomore in high school. I would frequently send emails, completely out of the blue, to professors all around the world asking about one of their ideas or presenting one of mine. By now I’ve assembled a library in excess of twenty books of varying difficulties – everything from very broad, generic overviews to college textbooks I came across for cheap – on a wide range of topics in physics. This interest and passion has all translated into being awarded an UG research fellowship for my pre-frosh summer, along with the promise of a great deal of support in the future. </p>

<p>I realize that my question may seem puzzling: why profess your interest for the field, ask whether or not your goals are feasible, and then shrug off the knowledge that the road will be arduous? But I simply wanted to get an idea of what there was ahead of me, good or bad. I realize that I’m young and that my interests have time to evolve – and I will do my best to not hinder that evolution and see where it leads me.</p>

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<p>For sure possible. Like I said, if it is what you love, then go for it. From a readers point of view, when we read the original post we did not know enough about your background in the subject to get the feel for where you were at in your discernment process. But it sounds like, based on your last post, this is what you want to do, and there is only one way to get there and that is get your phd in physics.</p>

<p>For sure double major with math, but if you are adamant that the phd in theoretical physics is going to be your route, then I would contemplate the benefits of pure math vs. applied math. I am not sure the applied route would be best in this situation when dealing with heavy theory. But that is more of a question for a professor and not the people on this site. I do know a friend of mine going into a phd theoretical physics program next fall who did pure math rather than applied.</p>

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<p>Connor, it seems your heart is in theoretical physics, and that you will find a niche with fellow physicists who share your passion. Theoretical physics is one of the more competitive fields, but there is a place for those who do well. The first thing is to do well in all physics and math classes, and get a high GPA overall. Many physics majors require so much math, that you get close to a math major anyway- so many do double major, and being able to do higher level math is desirable too. I think computational physics and some comp sci is usually part of the major too. Many grad schools will ask you to calculate your math and physics GPA separately from your other classes. Some will ask you to list classes, the professor, and the books you used on your application. Keep a record. </p>

<p>It is very important to get research experience and join a group- professor, grad students, undergrads who participate together on the prof’s research project and look for summer “REU” research programs to apply to. Another requirement is the GRE- and doing well on the math part is important. You will be way past this level of math, and should practice and review it. The physics GRE is the more challenging test, and you will need to study for it- and a high score is most desirable for admission into grad school of which the basics are: grades, research, GRE scores and letters of recommendation… and then some…</p>

<p>You will work hard but don’t stress too much (it can be a challenge). For the physicists I know ( I am not one myself) they love doing this work as it is their passion. Well, the physics GRE is not a lot of fun, but the research is, and the camaraderie in the group is real. Find a professor you are compatible with and get to know your upper level teachers, not just for letters of recommendation but because they will be your mentors and colleagues one day. Follow your heart and enjoy the journey- because as a physicist- the destination is always more to learn and discover…a continuous challenging journey. Good luck.</p>

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<p>I’ve been looking into this myself (I’m going to be applying to physics grad schools later this year); as far as I can tell, the standard fallback jobs for theoretical physicists are software development and finance (it seems that being an experimentalist is much more desirable if you want an engineering job). You probably won’t be doing what you were trained to do unless you can manage to get a job at a university or a national lab (or maybe a few industrial R&D labs? I’m not really clear on how willing they are to hire theoreticians), which as I’m sure you know are extremely competitive jobs to get.</p>

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<p>From what another poster said, the camaraderie really is there. In my undergraduate program, that is especially true. Surrounding yourself around people who have the same passion is a big help. The competition is just a small portion of what keeps me motivated. In a good physics program you will learn a lot about physics, but you will also learn some life lessons that are invaluable. I think it is a true testament to get through a good undergraduate program in physics. There really isn’t another major quite like it, and the experience is something that really will impact you in the future.</p>

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<p>Thank you to everyone for all of the support. </p>

<p>@aggieengineer – thank you for that note regarding applied vs. pure math; I’ll be sure to look into it. Originally I was thinking that pure math would be the way to go, but then I got it in my head (don’t worry, I subsequently got it right OUT of my head, because I saw how flawed of an idea it was) that graduating in 3 years was the way to go – because I thought that’d be a way to impress adcoms or some other nonsensical reason of the like – and decided that an applied tract would allow me to power through in three with the double major I wanted. Since I’ve since realized how erroneous my logic was, I’m sure that I’ll have time for the pure theory math tract because I have a whole extra (as opposed to my planned 3) year to fill with classes and research. </p>

<p>@penny – wow, thank you. That post was incredibly detailed and helpful. I’m going to sit down with both my academic and undergraduate advisors (both of whom I am already well acquainted with) and outline my goals – exactly where I want to be in 3 1/2 years when I’m getting ready to apply to programs – and ask exactly what I need to do to be there, as well as how they can help me get there. I have the benefit of attending a campus that is decently reputable but somewhere that I can still stand out based upon my high school record and interest in my field, so I am very hopeful that my department will continue to stand behind me – and I know that some of the professors with whom I’ve already spoken at some length have connections to the top programs in the world (Caltech, MIT and the like), so I hope that I’ll be able to impress them enough to compel them to utilize those connections.</p>

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<p>Connor- You are a freshman right? First, do well in all your intro classes. See if your school has a physics club where you can meet some of the upper division students and grad students. There is usually a description of the professors’ research interests on the website- read them and see whose interests match yours. Through the physics club, get to know the people and figure out who you may like to work with and also who seems to be a supportive professor- (not someone you can’t relate to at all). Eventually you will need to approach the professors you are interested in working with and ask them if there is room in their lab for you- as a volunteer, class for credit, or whatever they need. keep in mind the time commitment and how much time you need to do well in classes.REU’s are paid summer internships at various universities and you can find them on google. They are also competitive and usually require recommendations and some experience- not sure if freshman can get them, but an upper level student can. As an alternative it may be possible to do paid summer research in the lab that you are already involved in if there is funding. Have an academic adviser in physics, and also get to know your profs and TA’s in the classes you take. Upper level classes are usually smaller and taught by professors- so you will get to know them in those.
It’s hard to find study material for the physics GRE, so look on line and ask juniors and seniors where to get some. Admission to the big name grad schools like Caltech and MIT is very competitive, but there are other good programs for theory-and your professors can recommend them. Just like college applications, it is good to have a range of programs to apply to… that is a way off. At this point the major things you need to do well on are grades, research, GRE’s…Start by getting adjusted to school and doing well in all your classes…Upper level physics students and the grad students are good sources of advice.</p>

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<p>Oh and I would not advise graduating in 3 years. Physics is tough, and research is time consuming. Take your time to do well, get as involved in research as possible- it can include poster presentations at meetings or whatever. The physics GRE is a bear and you need to take time to study for it. You won’t be prepared for it until your higher level classes. Applying to grad school is at least as time consuming as applying to colleges. At this time, the programs you get accepted to will have you come visit before you decide. I don’t think graduating in 3 years will impress anyone as much as getting a thorough preparation for grad school and may just be stressful as it takes a lot more than just time in classes.</p>

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<p>I’m also interested in this! I’m a rising sophomore in college, and I really love physics, but I’ve recently been researching job prospects in physics and they don’t seem so good. I’d really love to have a position that involves research, so I’d love to work for government labs (though I’m not American), in R&D, or in academia. Considering that I’m interested in R&D as well as academia, and I’m much more interested in experiment than theory, is it worth pursuing it? I guess it depends on the individual… </p>

<p>I also enjoy economics, though definitely not as much as I like physics. I’m considering getting an economics internship next summer, but I’m thinking that if I do want to try and make it in physics, I may as well get as much research under my belt as possible, as that’ll be better for grad school, and I enjoy the research environment. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I’m doing undergraduate research this summer in HEP, and I’m having a great time, but I’m also considering trying out different areas of physics (CME or geophysics, in particular). I just don’t want to end up in a situation where I won’t ever get a satisfying job…</p>

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<p>Just thought I’d add that I’d be willing to work in any developed country where English is commonly spoken; not sure if that makes much of a difference for job prospects.</p>

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<p>Penny – Yes, I’m a pre-frosh. I’ll be sure to look into the physics club. And I’m actually taking a seminar course in the fall where all the professors in the department come and present their research projects and we get to cherry-pick those that we want. My school has a 3:1 faculty/student ratio for the physics department, so it’s relatively easy to get into a research position (that’s why I was able to not only get a post this summer, but a fellowship to cover my expenses along with it as a pre-frosh), especially if you’re passionate. </p>

<p>I’ll be sure to look into REU’s – I know at least two students from my school’s physics department got internships at CERN, and one of the professors was talking with me about similar prospects. I know that right now I’m more interested in theory, but an opportunity like that could turn me into an experimentalist. </p>

<p>I don’t doubt that the physics GRE is hard to find info on, because until you mentioned it I hadn’t even heard of it. So thank you very much for that, among everything else, because I’m glad I know about it early so I can properly prepare. </p>

<p>And yes, I don’t know what ever possessed me to think that graduating in 3 years would actually impress adcoms, but I’m glad it was subsequently talked out of me.</p>

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<p>Connor- it seems that you are on the right track early as a pre-frosh and have made some connections with faculty who will be able to give you good advice. Experience will help you decide between theoretical and experimental, and it will be according to what you feel is right. Best wishes to you!</p>

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<p>Thank you very much for all of your help; I felt like I sort of blindly felt my way through high school, so I’m glad to have a better idea of how to do well in college. Thank you again for sharing your knowledge and your kind wishes.</p>

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<p>You are welcome. You followed your interests through high school and it landed you in a good program it seems. I understand the process of applying to physics grad school by knowing some physics students who went through it, but not the actual physics involved or the specifics of the programs. Your attending physicians, and students ahead of you in the physics club-grad students and your TA’s will be a good source for where the good theoretical (or experimental) programs are. Keep following your interests and consult these guides along the way. I am glad I could help.</p>