<p>I agree with Soozviet. My son's merit performance scholarship is not tied to need at all. In fact, we did not have to file any finaid applications for THAT part of his finaid renewal. We did have to file the FAFSA for continuation of his Stafford loan, and this year (because little sis is in college) for consideration for need based awards. BUT his merit award was for merit...period.</p>
<p>Interesting read on merit aid.</p>
<p>Also available at <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/27/AR2005052701734.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/27/AR2005052701734.html</a></p>
<p>Same for the merit aid our family received. My third child is in college now, and we have never filled out the FAFSA or any other forms. Among the 3 kids - offers anywhere from $8000/year to full tuition for 4 years. All of these were based on the usual (SAT scores and GPA ) and some not so usual (particular ethnicity gave a 4 year scholarship at a certain school).</p>
<p>Merit scholarships lure best students </p>
<p>Although no other top schools technically offer merit-based aid, generous financial aid packages with grants instead of loans can serve the same purpose in attracting students. </p>
<p>More than just great athletics and beautiful weather set the University apart from its competitors in the undergraduate admissions race-merit scholarships play a key role as well. </p>
<p>With many applicants receiving simultaneous admittance to several top schools, merit scholarships can often tip the balance in Duke's favor. </p>
<p>"I absolutely would have gone to Stanford or Yale without the scholarship," said Matthew Kim, a Trinity freshman and a member of the first class of University Scholars. "I felt that as a member of the scholarship program there would be more research opportunities, and it would be better for my undergraduate experience." As a University Scholar, Kim receives full tuition, and the opportunity to participate in interdisciplinary studies. </p>
<p>"We know that from talking to students, [merit scholarships] are very helpful in actually matriculating students," said Christoph Guttentag, director of undergraduate admissions. </p>
<p>Students like Richard Berg, winner of a President's Research Fellowship-which provides $10,000 in research grants-agreed. "Being a wishful thinker, [the presence of merit scholarships] kept me a little more motivated to apply to Duke than perhaps otherwise...," said the Trinity freshman. </p>
<p>The existence of merit scholarships at the University does even more than just convince students to apply, however. More and more, such scholarships are helping to lure outstanding students away from other universities. </p>
<p>The Ivy League schools, which do not offer merit-based scholarships, often lose out to the University's programs, Guttentag said. "When we see the other schools that our merit scholars are turning down, it's very clear," he said. </p>
<p>Cynthia Hartley, director of student awards at Stanford University, also acknowledged that merit scholarships attract top students to different schools. "We invariably lose some students to other schools that offer merit scholarships," she said. "In those cases we must compete on [the merits of] our programs and the advantages of a Stanford education." </p>
<p>But the competition for high-caliber students does not end there. </p>
<p>"Harvard, Princeton, Dartmouth and Williams don't give merit-based awards.... Well, at least I wasn't one of the few under-the-table recipients," said a Trinity junior and scholarship winner who did not wish to be identified. </p>
<p>These "under-the-table" awards often come through increased research opportunities or "the tweaking of financial aid packages," said Guttentag. He added that Harvard has such a program, which gives students "less loan, and more grant," in their financial aid offers. </p>
<p>"They don't call it merit scholarships, but in a sense it is the same thing," said Melissa Malouf, director of Duke's Office of Undergraduate Scholars and Fellows. "They are going after the same students that we are." </p>
<p>The Harvard University financial aid web site states that the school does not adjust awards solely to compete with other universities. </p>
<p>"But, of course," the site reads, "we would be happy to review your award and perhaps make an adjustment if your financial situation or new information warrants it. We hope you will call to give us an opportunity to review your situation." </p>
<p>Stanford admitted that under such circumstances, financial aid awards can be reviewed to compete for students. "We will always be willing to review an application.... If there are no changes in the needs analysis, we don't change a package unless it is to add additional loan," said Hartley. </p>
<p>Berg, the President's Research Fellowship winner, went so far as to refer to Harvard's financial aid as a merit scholarship itself. "The schools that also attract the most truly outstanding students are not Stanford, Cornell, etc... but the ones that offer similar scholarships like Harvard's need-based aid. It's well known that they give much higher amounts to super-high achievers...." he wrote in an e-mail. </p>
<p>The next step in the race for outstanding students may require additions to Duke's merit programs. Several scholarship winners said that other schools offer room and board along with full tuition, sometimes pulling them away from Duke. </p>
<p>"I've heard that the University of Virginia puts its scholars on a pedestal-they get a lot of perks...," Margaret Harris, a Trinity freshman and PRF winner, wrote in an e-mail. The Jefferson Scholarship at UVa provides fees for room and board, books, fees and miscellaneous expenses, in addition to full tuition. </p>
<p>Still, many students remain happy with Duke's merit scholarship program, citing the strong relationships built between all of the different scholarship students through the scholars office as an example. "I was impressed by the quality of the program for the merit scholarships. Aside from the money, Duke manages to aid students in their need to succeed in college," Kim said. "Participation in different activities provides the scholarship recipient with the opportunity to gain contacts in different areas." </p>
<p>Malouf, also an associate professor of the practice of English, agreed. </p>
<p>"My sense is that the track at Duke has always been to make the merit scholarships not simply about money.... On the human level I think we do really well...," she said. "There is a sense that the University gives a darn about the undergraduate."</p>
<p>^^^</p>
<p>"These "under-the-table" awards often come through increased research opportunities or "the tweaking of financial aid packages..."</p>
<p>'He added that Harvard has such a program, which gives students "less loan, and more grant," in their financial aid offers...." </p>
<p>Merit or Financial Aid? They are competing for the same students. One school calls it merit, the other calls it financial aid....</p>
<p>and a linked excerpt about Duke:</p>
<p>"At Duke you get full tuition. The value at UNC is estimated around $125,000 (out of state) and at Duke around $140,000. Duke also offers other merit scholarships like the Angier B. Duke (attracts science/engineering type people who are Siemens and Intel Westinghouse finalists), Benjamin N. Duke (North Carolina students only I believe), Reginaldo Howard (I believe African Americans), and the University Scholarship Program. One of my friends is going to be a A.B. Duke student next year. I turned down Yale and Swarthmore to accept the Robertson "</p>
<p>More is found here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.aas.duke.edu/ousf/%5B/url%5D">http://www.aas.duke.edu/ousf/</a></p>
<p>Where the Action Is!
For information on Duke University's major merit scholarship programs.
What makes them "major"? Check them out:<br>
Angier B. Duke Memorial Scholarship: <a href="http://www.aas.duke.edu/ousf/abduke.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.aas.duke.edu/ousf/abduke.htm</a>
Alumni Endowed Scholarship
Benjamin Newton Duke Scholarship
<a href="http://www.aas.duke.edu/ousf/bnduke.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.aas.duke.edu/ousf/bnduke.htm</a>
Reginaldo Howard Scholarship
<a href="http://www.aas.duke.edu/ousf/reginaldohoward.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.aas.duke.edu/ousf/reginaldohoward.htm</a>
Robertson Scholars Program
<a href="http://www.aas.duke.edu/ousf/robertson.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.aas.duke.edu/ousf/robertson.htm</a>
Trinity Scholarship
<a href="http://www.aas.duke.edu/ousf/trinity.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.aas.duke.edu/ousf/trinity.htm</a>
The University Scholars Program
<a href="http://www.aas.duke.edu/ousf/unischolars.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.aas.duke.edu/ousf/unischolars.htm</a>
That's not all. OUSF (pronounced oo-sef) is the organizational and support site for all Duke students who want to apply for fellowships and scholarships such as the Truman, the Rhodes, the Marshall, and many other awards. Check out this link: <a href="http://www.aas.duke.edu/trinity/scholarships/%5B/url%5D">http://www.aas.duke.edu/trinity/scholarships/</a></p>
<p>At Duke, the University Scholars Program is highlighted as a Merit Scholarship.</p>
<p>When you click on the eligibility requirements and read the fine print, this is what you find. ( It is actually based on financial need.)</p>
<p>"Undergraduate University Scholars are exceptional, creative, academically accomplished students who can profit from an interdisciplinary program and who have demonstrated, through official financial-aid applications, that they need scholarship support to achieve their academic ambitions. The distinctive features of the University Scholars Program for undergraduate scholars include: </p>
<p>Full Tuition Scholarship...."</p>
<p>Some of the other "merit" scholarships have fine print eligiblity requirements too! (residency, ethnicity, etc.)</p>
<p>I think we figured that a caucasian, non-North Carolinian, non-athlete has less than 1%chance of getting any merit money from Duke, despite all the hype about the wonderful Merit money it has to entice students away from its competitors! :)</p>
<p>"When you click on the eligibility requirements and read the fine print, this is what you find. ( It is actually based on financial need.)"</p>
<p>I guess we could add yet another subset to further define the true meaning of merit aid: the merit scholarship that is a merit but also has a financial need requirement. </p>
<p>Are merit scholarship that target certain racial or SES group not merit scholarships? Don't people have to qualify and compete for those type of awards. </p>
<p>Again, all of this discussion only points towards ONE direction. The need based awards are based on financial need, and do not require qualifications except for the economic one. Everything else that is based on individual accomplishment IS merit aid, even if it comes with restrictions. </p>
<p>PS Isn't a scholarship that is only open to NC residents still merit aid?</p>
<p>I surrender. I'm going to remove Julliard from the list on the next update, This is all great input. I should point out that because a school does not give merit it doesn't mean they won't find other ways to help you. I think there have been a couple post with good examples of that. As I understand it some schools will delve more deeply into your application and financial forms and find something that allows them to throw a little more money your way. Maybe your folks are closing in on retirement, maybe in a year you'll have siblings in college, maybe a job in the bookstore or elsewhere will allow you to afford a particular college... It is really up to the college as to how much of a helping hand they want to extend. They can mix and match things if they consider you a top notch candidate. All bets are NOT off especially if your an URM, NMS, top flight athlete, etc. etc. They'll find a way to entice you. without merit.</p>
<p>Nightingale,</p>
<p>I know this has nothing to do with merit aid but let me share my tale of woe. because I am going to hit on a subject we have not discussed yet (financial reviews). </p>
<p>After plugging away at my EFC I found that what I would be paying out pocket for a need based school was comprable to what I would have to pay out of pocket our state U with room and board (full freight, did not factor in merit $$). Using this amount as a jumping off point, my D applied to 7 need based schools. She got admitted to all them.</p>
<p>The range in the FA award using the same fafsa and css profile was about 12,000 from the "best" to the "worst" award packages. Daughter received 60,000 & 64,000 over the course of 4 years in leadership award from Bryn Mawr & Mount Holyoke. </p>
<p>Had she decided to attend, with between the leadership award and the need-based aid, it was the most affordable option of the bunch as far as what I would have spent out of pocket. </p>
<p>D's top 2 choices were Williams and Dartmouth. Williams gave a better plan. Dartmouth stated in their FA paperwork that you could request a financial review, even if it meant sending someone else's package. (I knew they were 2 comprable schools, so D wrote her letter thanking them for the package but Williams was the more financially feasible option for our family. Guess what?Dartmouth met the williams package, lowering our EFC, increasing the scholarship/ grant aid and reducing the loans. </p>
<p>Dartmouth stated barring any major changes in our financial circumstance (we had none), the package would remain pretty consistent. Her EFC went up a couple of $$ but the school tells you straight up what the student contribution is and now as a rising junior, my D's package has remained pretty consistent.</p>
<p>For the most part , schools that give need based aid, do not "negotiate" or do financial reviews with schools that give merit. However, a parent posted in the Cafe about their student getting merit $$ from brandeis and going back and getting a financial review because they wanted their out of pocket expense at brandies to be in line with what they were paying at UCLA/ UCSB instate. They were able to get what they needed. So as others have stated don't rule out the need based aid.</p>
<p>xiggi you said- "You still list Smith despite Mini's post." How much and how many scholarships does Smith offer? Should I remove a school from the list because they supposedly give merit aid according to the post of one individual? I checked the College Board website and according to data given them BY SMITH. Smith gives an average of $3465 non-need based aid per student. So while you're correct in that they do give merit aid what they give is nominal. It cost thousands upon thousands of dollars to attend Smith and people should get excited about $3500 in merit ..on average? Smith will be placed on the nominal merit aid list. Peanuts xiggi...</p>
<p>Nightingale, rather than ask a series of leading questions, why don't I simply ask you the following one:</p>
<p>Which is the level of merit aid that is needed to emerge from the no merit list and move to the "mediocre" team. And, in the same vein, what do you consider generous merit aid. Do schools have to emulate Brandeis, a school that is usually cited on CC for its merit aid?</p>
<p>Further, where do you draw the line when dealing with institutions that spend 150% of the highest tuition income per student. Doesn't a school like Swarthmore -chosen because Interestedad has posted on this issue ad mauseam- really offer a merit aid of tens of thousand dollars to everyone? However, this is probably derailing the issue of defining your standards.</p>
<p>So, what is your measurement stick that should earn kudos?</p>
<p>Nightingale, once again you're missing the point. If your EFC makes you eligible for a 15K need based package, and your kid gets a 3500 merit award on top of that, your Cost of Attendance is likely to be lower at Smith than at many other schools with a smaller endowment who may throw a few huge merit awards at the Intel finalist who walks on water but where your kid might not qualify for anything at all.... and if they school isn't need blind your kid might not get in anyway if they suspect you can't attend without the finaid which they've got no intention of giving you.</p>
<p>Don't mix apples and oranges. The size of the average merit award at Smith isn't too significant a datapoint given Smith's proven generosity over a long period of time..... not just some enrollment management gimick which they rolled out with great fanfare two years ago to get attention.</p>
<p>blossom- I'm talking Merit Aid only. If you have a family income that precludes "need based" aid you must then rely on merit only. If I make 200k a year (I don't) and my D wants to go to Smith (she does not) then what would my expectation be. It would be that my D's non-need based number would probably resemble the average.. $3500. This assumes my D is NOT a legacy, URM, NMS, or being courted by the Ivies. At Brandeis my expectations would be much higher given the fact that Brandeis gives out far, far, more, maret based aid then Smith. So for a family making say 150-200k or more.. that family would be better served, as a general rule, seeking out the best merit aid givers instead of places that give no merit or only nominal merit. YES there are exceptions as I've said over and over. Sooziet's D's who had Ivy type stats, my buddy's kid at Amherst who can throw a ball 90 miles an hour and so on. But if your EFC is high and your kid is not Ivy material, an under represented minority, a legacy, a female applying to an engineering school, in other words if you don't have a hook... go with the best merit givers. Yes Smith is generous WHERE NEED is concerned not MERIT. This thread is about merit.. not the overall affordability based on need and merit.
xiggi - I said earlier in the thread if the best merit you're offered is less than 5000.. don't bother mentioning it as that type of merit does not punch a hole in a 45,000 tuition bill.</p>
<p>"xiggi - I said earlier in the thread if the best merit you're offered is less than 5000.. don't bother mentioning it as that type of merit does not punch a hole in a 45,000 tuition bill."</p>
<p>Since the Zollman offers 1/2 tuition for for years and the Picker offers $10,000 would that not be over your bottom line which is ... still ver much undefined.</p>
<p>Again, what is your measurement stick? Is it based on grant per capita, or on total merit awards for the student body, or on some other calculations. It is your list, so you ought to know what you want. To an outsider, it is very confusing.</p>
<p>Nightingale.... I understand your point..... but rather than focus on the size of the award and claim that some schools are stingy and others generous you need to understand the criteria for gaining one of these scholarships at some of the merit aid schools. Many of them have limited endowments and have chosen to spend their money chasing stats with a couple of splashy scholarships rather then invest in the student body as a whole. If your kid is not Ivy material or a legacy or one of the other categories you mention, your kid doesn't have a shot at many of these awards anyway... regardless of how generous the school may appear on paper.</p>
<p>We know a kid at Brandeis who got a huge merit award..... to lure her away from an Ivy where she'd had every intention of enrolling. When she told Brandeis that she was declining, the merit offer magically appeared. so yeah.... Brandeis is generous. Unless your kid is deciding between Princeton (no aid.... family makes too much to qualify) and enough $ at Brandeis to make a huge quality of life difference for the family.... is this a relevant fact??? Your mileage may vary.</p>
<p>In fact, the "average" merit award stat is highly misleading for many of the schools commonly described as generous merit schools. Their FA officers convert loans to grants for FA eligible kids, so that a family's package will consist of the need based grant, work study, plus the "merit award".... Nice to have this as a grant rather than a loan.... but it's fin aid the family was eligible for anyway, they just don't brag about that to family and friends and the clerk at the check out counter at Wegmans.</p>
<p>Nightingale,</p>
<p>Keep in mind that while your kid may have the stats that make them eligible for a school that gives merit money, it does not mean that they would be a shoo-in to be admitted to the school. Enrollment managers and FA aid people are very savvy, even though a school says that it is giving merit aid there are still working with a limite pot of money. You can be assured they know exactly how many full rides to offer, how many half tution scholarships, etc. they are offering at any given time. Even with schools that offer merit aid, they will not be at a loss of students applying for the aid. Because even with merit money, the college will try to build a diverse class to fulfill it's institutional mission. This means that it is highly unlikely that the school is going to have a lot of students with perfect/ near perfect gpa's and scores.</p>
<p>Also keep in mind that when it comes to merit money, there is rarely anything such as a free lunch. While there are some schools that have a phase in GPA working your way up to a particular GPA over time, there are many schools where you live and die by the school's gpa requirement. </p>
<p>If you search through the threads, you will find a number of threads of students who at the end of freshman year no longer have their scholarships because they may have been 1 or 2 tenths of a point (sometimes even less) of meeting the GPA requirement. If your child is interested in a major where there could be a lot of grade deflation (example engineering and some of the hard sciences) or is on one of the ever popular pre-med tracks, they could face a weed out course or 2 that can knock them right out of the box. Where does this leave you? You would be suprised at the number of kids that are constantly worry about every assignment or every test because it means the difference between them coming back and not coming back.</p>
<p>Nightingale, mini wasn't the only person that mentioned merit aid at Smith. I did, as well as at least another poster. My D got the Stride at Smith. There were 50 Stride Scholars selected for admission. The amount of the award is not that high, true, but every little bit counts. In my D's case, she also got need based aid on top of it. The Stride is also a research assistantship, so it is not just about the money (I know, I know, you are looking for money, a bunch of it). The Zolman, which Mini's D got, is half tuition, at Smith. </p>
<p>Just because a school offers substantial Merit Awards, it doesn't mean your child will win that award. Cast a wide net if Merit Awards are very important to you. However, as others have said, you can file FAFSA and see what happens with Need Based Aid, as you never know. I don't know if you will eventually have two in college but the amount of aid rises when you do and so you need to have filed a FAFSA from the get go. </p>
<p>Everyone approaches the college search differently. I understand your approach (somewhat) but please realize that others do things differently. Also, to chase merit aid, it helps to apply to colleges a tier down in selectivity from the ones you are eligible for admissions at. It increases your chances of standing out in the applicant pile. If you really want to save money, look into your state U too. </p>
<p>My guess is that your income is greater than ours since you say you won't be applying for need based aid. We are not poor in the least and didn't know if we would get any aid but we surely filed for it. Both my kids got it. Now, with two in college, the financial aid and scholarships are even higher and quite substantial. However, while I can't afford college out right, like you are also saying, we allowed our kids to apply to any schools they wished and allowed them to attend any school they got into regardless if they got aid or how much. I fully realize that not everyone would approach it this way and I fully respect that. We simply are willing to borrow money to pay for this education as it is important to us and we wanted our kids to attend their first choice schools that fit them. You are saying that $5000 is peanuts. Well, compared to $49,000 tuition, etc. per year, it seems like a small chunck of change. But it is still $5000. If that is not much money to you, then perhaps you are able to afford a school that gives a little less scholarship amount than some others give, say...$5000 less....after all, it is just peanuts.</p>
<p>Sorry to have confused you xiggi. Zollman and Picker were not on the list. My yard stick is non-need based aid, generally referred to as merit money, athletic scholarships excluded. </p>
<p>Blossom/sybbie -there is merit aid available to kids who don't have Ivy-like stats. There are over 4000 colleges that have to fill the seats each year. 1200 math/verbal gets you automatic money at some places. Your point about sustaining a GPA is well taken. I think an earlier poster warned about that difficuty. Since the advent of USNWR and the ranking system colleges need solid students to keep there admission numbers up. There is a pecking order to be maintained and a loss there means a loss in prestige which means a decline in applications. This can be exploited by non-Ivy, but above average students. Yes enrollment counselers make exploiting the situation a bit more difficult... but colleges are not completely in the drivers seat even though ...mileage may very.</p>
<p>"Sorry to have confused you xiggi. Zollman and Picker were not on the list."</p>
<p>NG, Zollman and Picker are scholarships offered at Smith, not schools subject to be listed. I thought this part was obvious after EK's post number 69 in this thread.</p>