<p>Thanks schismmanifesto, it is really interesting to get the perspective of a current student. It seems that another difference may be that there are Plan II students on CC but I haven't seen any posts from LAH students. I there are any LAH students visiting the forum it would be great to get your perspective as well.</p>
<p>This thread has been dead for a while, but I came across this discussion on a random Google search and had to have some input, especially since I'm in the Liberal Arts Honors program and we seem to be underrepresented here. :-)</p>
<p>I had the same question as a freshman, Plan II or LAH. They're both incredible programs and allow you to work closely, as an undergrad no less, with some of the best faculty and advisers on the planet. I have some amazing friends in both.</p>
<p>As has been said, Plan II is older, so it is better known. A little history lesson: Dr. Larry Carver, the current director of LAH, used to be the director of Plan II. He thought there should be another option for Liberal Arts students who didn't want the intensive major but still wanted small classes with the best faculty, so he created LAH, or Plan I Honors. While Plan II is currently better-known, Dr. Carver is amazing and I guarantee you LAH is a good investment for the future. It's only going to get more prestigious and more selective as time goes, especially with Carver running it, so you really can't go wrong either way.</p>
<p>If you want an honors program that is a major in and of itself, go for Plan II. It has an actual curriculum that includes things like World Lit freshman year, Plan II calculus, and so forth. I know some people majoring in Plan II and nothing else. Both Plan II and LAH allow you to explore, and I believe LAH does so even more because it only has one set class you HAVE to take. That's a class freshman year called 102H where basically each week a professor from a different liberal arts school comes and talks about his field. It's perfect if you're undeclared because you get to learn about everything from Economics to English and everything in between.</p>
<p>If you want an honors program that consists of only a few required courses that is more of a minor and a complement to your other studies, go for LAH. LAH is kind of two separate programs. We have Freshman Honors and Upper-Division Honors. If you want to graduate "with special honors in Liberal Arts" on your degree, you must complete the upper-division hours as well, but I know plenty of people who decided not to bother with upper-division who had been admitted into the Freshman Honors program. Once you complete your (I believe it's still three) required lower-division LAH courses, you may start taking upper-division LAH courses if you have a 3.5 GPA or higher. You must get at least two A's and one B in these three classes to graduate with official Liberal Arts Honors.</p>
<p>Another thing that both programs can lead into, but LAH seems to more often, is Departmental Honors. Each department has its own honors program. Right now I am in the Liberal Arts Honors program and the English Honors program - two separate things. What that means is that I am now only enrolled in ten-person English classes with the best professors, and that I now have 3 upper-division LAH courses to complete that will also only have 10-15 people in them, all LAH-ers. </p>
<p>Both programs provide a wonderful small community within a huge research university. LAH enrolls approximately 140 freshmen per year, while Plan II enrolls about 250-300. I don't know how many people apply to Plan II each year, but I believe it's a little over 1,000 for LAH. When I say each program is like it's own little community - it seriously is. You really get to know most of the people in your LAH and Plan II graduating classes, and each program has its own student council, theater troupe, and music ensemble. If you wanted to (though I wouldn't advise it), you could just be involved in honors program student organizations and not even get involved in the bigger university.</p>
<p>Just a little plug for LAH - I've had multiple professors who have taught both Plan II and LAH classes tell us that they like LAH students better. :-) LAH students tend to be very friendly, maybe a little more outgoing than most Plan II students (again, just a personal opinion). We're (for the most part - there are always exceptions - I know some LAH/Pre-Med majors) perhaps a little less well-rounded than Plan II students as far as math goes. If you hate math, LAH is probably better for you. I'd say Plan II students are more likely to be the ones who scored 700s on both Math and Reading on the SAT, and LAH-ers are more likely to have scored a 600 on the math and an 800 on the Reading. </p>
<p>If you want an example of what LAH classes are like, I'll list a few. I took an LAH section of English 314L my freshman year and it was amazing. There were only 15 students in the class, we were all LAH, and we got to have so much one-on-one time with the professor. She even invited us to her house at the end of the semester and made us dinner. Another different kind of LAH class I took: There are arts requirements that must be fulfilled, and our advisers got us an LAH section of Intro to Western Music. My discussion section was small, all LAH-ers, and it was wonderful talking about Beethoven and Haydn and the greats with people who were really interested in them. I'm taking an upper-division version of History at Play this coming semester, which is basically where the instructor (usually Larry Carver) selects a period in history such as the French Revolution, and each class member is assigned a historical person to be for the class. There are debates, speeches, and such, and you must act at all times in class as if you are that historical figure.</p>
<p>Also, we have world-class advisers. I'm not even kidding. When you come and tour the LAH program (you'll probably sit in on a class like History at Play), you'll meet two people named Paul Sullivan and Stacey Amorous, two of the best people ever! If you're in LAH, you NEVER need to stress out about your schedule or getting into the classes you want, because they will always take care of you and have a lot of connections when it comes to getting into classes. They've gotten tons of advising awards and they really make the program what it is.</p>
<p>One more thing - whether you choose LAH or Plan II, live in the Honors Quad your first year! Even live in it your second. They're not the nicest dorms on campus (If you want nice dorms, go to San Jac, Duren, or maybe Whitis Court), but it's a wonderful community. A lot of the other dorms aren't social at all, but the Quad has a lot of events and you get to know so many people just by living here. Many people are also in your classes, so it almost seems to reduce the size of the university down to just a few hundred people. :-) You get to meet lots of fellow LAH-ers and Plan II-ers that way, as well as students in all of the other programs.</p>
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<p>Thanks for your insight Texbex</p>
<p>I went to the honors colloquium as well, and although it was informative, it was not nearly as helpful as these insights from actual LAH & Plan II students. A huge thanks to schismmanifesto & texbex for taking time to write these out - this makes me extremely excited about UT, especially since my only worries were about personal attention from faculty & staff and getting lost in the massive student body.</p>
<p>haha UT is looking better and better every day, especially when looking at the tuition costs of everywhere else I'm applying.</p>
<p>I just had one question... are Plan II students able to take LAH classes that are not offered in the Plan II curriculum?</p>
<p>texbex, I already applied to plan II, and I think I might have a fairly good chance of getting accepted, but based on your thread I don't know which fits me better. I like Plan II's classes and curriculum a bit better (reminds me of my IB classes whereas LAH reminds me more of AP), but I don't know if I'm up to the task of tackling 2 majors. If anything, I would like to dedicate all my time into one major. Another problem I have is that I love Social Sciences (planned major in government) as well as math, but I absolutely despise sciences (which are a big part of Plan II). I don't know what to do....</p>
<p>anyone know the acceptance rate for LAH please?</p>
<p>As of fall 2009, out of every seven applicants to the LAH program one was accepted. To provide some perspective on this number, the average class rank of those acccepted for entry in the fall 2009 semester was within the top 4% of their high school graduating class.</p>
<p>I am a first-year LAH student and love the program. Freshman are required to take a one hour freshman seminar each week where a different distinguished professor from each department in the College of Liberal Arts lectures to the entire LAH freshman class. It is strenuous, as you are required to write a three page response to the lecture in two days, and the LAH 305 classes are very writing/research intensive, but worth the work. The LAH community is great; they really make sure you meet your fellow LAHers and become friends.</p>
<p>The program is very writing intensive, but if you do the work, after one semester, you will become a noticeably better writer and student.</p>
<p>Iām a freshman in Plan II this year, and I also love my program. My floor in the honors dorms is a mix between LAH and Plan II (as well as BHP and Engineering) and I wouldnāt say that either group is āsmarterā than the other. Both are great programs and attract wonderful peopleā¦ I love all the LAHers Iāve met, and I think that between the two groups, theyāre equally social. Itās really just about picking the program thatās right for you. The two programs seem to kind of self-select, anywayā¦ Itās rare-ish that people get into both LAH and Plan II. Usually they pick whomever they feel fits best with their group of students. I really donāt think you can go wrong either way, though. In either program, youāll have great classes and make great friends. However, Plan II does make you take a few extra subjects that may not appeal to you. For instance, you have to finish a calculus sequence or take at least half of a calc sequence and take Plan II Math; the same goes for Biology, either BIO311C and D or Plan II Bio. However, everyone Iāve talked to loves those classesā¦ the only unpopular one is Plan II Physics, which is supposed to be ridiculously hard, but everyone gets through it. As for LAH, Iām not sure what their requirements are, but everyone seems to enjoy their classes too. One final thing: You can get into the Liberal Arts Honors program (not the freshman program, but as an upper division student) later, I guess if you donāt like Plan II. Plan II is pretty much a one-time offer; they almost never accept transfers into the major. Good luck!</p>
<p>So does anybody know the avg. SAT scores to get into LAH? Where can I find these statistics?</p>
<p>The Liberal Arts Honors Program does not, as a rule, publish the average SAT scores of admitted students. Each studentās application is reviewed in its entirety in order to get a complete picture of the applicant. As far as I know there is no SAT cut off score. I did ask one of the LAH program administrators for the average SAT score of students entering the program and was told it was about 1400. So, some scores are above 1400 others are below 1400.</p>
<p>There is no SAT minimum or standard to have. Scores of the freshmen I know in LAH range from 1960-2310.</p>
<p>I think I should modify what I just noted about the 1 in 7 Liberal Arts Honors Program acceptance rate. The director of the UT-Austin LAH Program posted on the UT College of Liberal Arts website the following information about the 2009 LAH entering class. According to the director, there is a total LAH student population of about 500 students, ā120 of whom are freshmen, selected this year (2009) from 985 applicants.ā</p>
<p>LAH has 120 freshmen ATTEND out of 920 applicants. This is not the acceptance rate.</p>
<p>Of 920 applicants, if half are accepted, that means that 460 would have been accepted. UT has a yield of around 50%, so around 230 would come to UT. Then youāve got the kids who choose to do Plan II or another honors program or no honors program, and not LAH, so youād end up with around 120.</p>
<p>These are all just estimates and assumptions, but from everything I can tell the acceptance rate seems to be around half.</p>
<p>Lone Ranger, I think your analysis is fair. The thing to keep in mind is that the profile of the typical student attending LAH is a student with SAT scores in the area of 1400 and a high school ranking in the top 4%. Hence, it is logical to assume that the accepted students are coming from a pool of applicants with similar backgrounds. </p>
<p>BTW, to read a very good comparison of the two programs go to the analysis provided on the Plan II website located at the, [UT</a> College of Liberal Arts](<a href=āPlan II Honors Program | Liberal Arts | UT - Austinā>Plan II Honors Program | Liberal Arts | UT - Austin) </p>
<p>The prestige of the older Plan II aside, either program provides an outstanding college education at a very reasonable cost, with both programs emulating a small college atmosphere within a large world class university. Admission to graduate school is facilitated quite well by participation in either program.</p>
<p>Actually, to be more precise, for the fall 2009 semester, there were 7 applications for every space available. Check the LAH website for the precise wording ([UT</a> College of Liberal Arts](<a href=āLiberal Arts Honors Programs | Liberal Arts | UT - Austinā>Liberal Arts Honors Programs | Liberal Arts | UT - Austin)).</p>
<p>So Iām guessing it takes a while for the resume to show up as part of the honors application?</p>
<p>Another excellent description of the UT Liberal Arts Honors Program, and which puts the program in context, comes from its director Dr. Larry Carver and is found at, [Opinion:</a> Almost 20 Know](<a href=āOpinion: Almost 20 - UT Newsā>Opinion: Almost 20 - UT News)</p>
My son was accepted into LAH several months ago, and just received notice that he was accepted into Plan II from the waitlist today. This thread has been very helpful. Heās attracted to the āprestigeā of Plan II (especially because heās interested in grad school, law or med), but does not want the restricted curriculum. We attended the āBest of Texasā a few weeks ago and met the LAH advisors and other students and parents who were admitted. It was a really impressive crowd. Heās about 90% sure heās going to go with LAH, but we will follow this thread in case anyone has a compelling selling point for Plan II. Thanks.
For other students making this decision in the future, Iād like to share what I learned today by calling two law schools. I talked to people in the admissions offices at the University of Virginia and University of Texas law schools. I asked if they had any knowledge of or opinion about Plan II vs. LAH as an undergrad major. Both of the schools had the same responseāthey donāt care about majors. They are looking for students who are passionate about their studies and do very well (3.8+ GPA and 168+ LSAT). They take majors from engineering, stem, music, liberal arts. At the end of the day, it doesnāt matter which program you choose!