<p>What are my chances at getting into Plan II?</p>
<p>I go to a very competetive private school in Texas that does not rank its students.
-3.7 GPA Unweighted
-SAT: 720 Math, 710 Verbal, 650 Writing
-I am taking challenging classes including APs and am 2 years ahead in math.
-Lots of extracurriculars</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>Your SAT is within the range of the average Plan II student. Here's a link to last year's profile: <a href="http://www.utexas.edu/cola/progs/plan2/students/profiles/freshman_2006/%5B/url%5D">http://www.utexas.edu/cola/progs/plan2/students/profiles/freshman_2006/</a></p>
<p>Ask your guidance counselor how many students from your school have been accepted by and/or enrolled in Plan II in the past. My impression is that the Plan II advisors are knowledgeable about most of the private schools in Texas and that many guidance counselors are familiar with how Plan II views their programs. This can be important if you come from a non-ranking high school.</p>
<p>Okay, I've gotta ask...What exactly is Plan II. I've looked at the website and brochures and such, but I'm still unclear. What is the advantage to Plan II rather than another degree program?</p>
<p>Josh,</p>
<p>Plan II is a liberal arts honors program that provides an alternate path to an undergraduate degree. It is especially useful for students who want to go to graduate school, law school, or medical school because it is known to most graduate programs and prepares its students to pursue graduate studies. In my view, the main reason to consider Plan II is if you know you are interested in graduate school.</p>
<p>In addition, another reason to consider Plan II is if you are interested in different areas of study. For example, a future doctor who also wants to be an astronaut can pursue a dual degree in the sciences and astronomy under the Plan II umbrella; as can a business major who likes Russian literature; and a psychology major interested in the theatre. It might be difficult to combine these majors in a more traditional degree plan but many students are pursuing varied interests in Plan II.</p>
<p>Plan II is not for everyone. Most courses require significant reading and writing. There are a number of required courses solely for Plan II students and not all courses will be interesting to every student, although I think they are all beneficial. The typical Plan II student was at the top of his/her high school class but may be average in Plan II. Plan II tests students' strength of character - are they in college for accolades or to challenge themselves and learn?</p>
<p>For those students who know exactly what they want to do, such as those who know they want to go into medical research or work in the computer sciences, it might be better to consider specific honors' programs such as the Dean's Scholars or Turing Scholars programs. However, many college freshmen aren't sure what they want to do or, even if they are sure, they may change their minds during college. Plan II is a vehicle that lets exemplary students explore all that UT offers and keep their options open.</p>
<p>I've talked to some people within Plan II that hated it, they felt it was a lot of unneccessary work. Most people feel that departmental honors or like the above poster says, Dean's scholars and Turing Scholars are better because the work is more subject specific and they feel it actually helps them.</p>
<p>Some people even tell me that Plan II really only helps if you want to go to UT for grad school. I will say however that some of their kids get recruited for good business jobs, so if you're seeking something that's competitve (ibanking, consulting) then it can be one of the ways to distinguish yourself from someone else -- especially if you can't get into a business honors.</p>
<p>dcfca makes good points and, once again, I agree that Plan II is most helpful for those who want to go to graduate school. I know a recent Plan II/Business Honors graduate who has an excellent job in finance that she attributes to her Plan II degree rather than her Business Honors curriculum or connections. My guess is that, like many aspects of our lives, there's an element of luck involved in landing that dream job after graduation.</p>
<p>well, I mean personally I think the people who do BHP and Plan II are going overboard. I think BHP alone is enough and will get people those top jobs they seek (Goldman Sachs, Blackstone, Bain & Co, McK) but if you were doing 'regular business' and wanted an edge then yeah, Plan II is good.</p>
<p>But a lot of it is all up in the air and luck, I know someone who was just an Econ major that was given a job offer from Lazard.</p>
<p>That's interesting - the first I'd heard of some people actually hating PLAN II. </p>
<p>Just how much work is it? Say, in comparison to an engineering degree? I know that it's a different type of work - reading & writing rather than the number crunching of an engineering degree - but does the sheer volume of work compare? You know how engineering students supposedly have no time for anything but studying (that's the reputation anyway) - would the same be said of PLAN II?</p>
<p>I'm also wondering that. Also, is it possible to get a dual degree in Plan II/Biomedical engineering in four years? I already have 24 hours of basics.</p>
<p>I responded to Lealdragon via PM but since Josh is also interested I'll post my thoughts here.</p>
<p>First, if you have questions about degree plans for dual degrees then you should check out the Plan II Advising Manual. It shows sample degree plans for several majors. Pick the one that is most like what you are interested in (they have samples in several fields), but you may not find the exact one you are interested in because UT has so many majors. Here's a link to the Plan II Advising Manual: <a href="http://www.utexas.edu/cola/progs/plan2/content/advising/06_adv_man.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.utexas.edu/cola/progs/plan2/content/advising/06_adv_man.pdf</a> and here's a link to the Plan II Advising and Curriculum page: <a href="http://www.utexas.edu/cola/progs/plan2/advising/%5B/url%5D">http://www.utexas.edu/cola/progs/plan2/advising/</a></p>
<p>For instance, the Plan II Advising Manual has sample degree plans for dual degrees in Plan II and biology (page 30) and Plan II and biochemistry (page 29). Here's a link to UT's Department of Biomedical Engineering: <a href="http://www.bme.utexas.edu/%5B/url%5D">http://www.bme.utexas.edu/</a> and here's a link to a sample curriculum for an undergraduate degree in that department: <a href="http://www.bme.utexas.edu/academics/index.cfm%5B/url%5D">http://www.bme.utexas.edu/academics/index.cfm</a>. I suggest you compare the curriculum to the sample plan in biology or biochemistry, and that comparison should give you an idea if you can finish in 4 years.</p>
<p>Our son is pursuing a dual major in Plan II and business. He probably won't finish in 4 years because he wants to take other courses that aren't in his majors, and this may be the last time he will have the luxury to explore interesting subjects that he's never been exposed to before. However, he should complete his Plan II degree in 4 years. That involves taking about 2 Plan II courses each semester. The Plan II courses, as a rule, have reading assignments of 10-15 paperback books per class. He usually has 3-5 or more writing assignments per class, plus class discussions, and sometimes study group assignments and extra reading (or films) at the library. He was a hard worker in high school but he had more work in his freshman year than he was used to in high school. However, he did get used to it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
That's interesting - the first I'd heard of some people actually hating PLAN II. </p>
<p>Just how much work is it? Say, in comparison to an engineering degree? I know that it's a different type of work - reading & writing rather than the number crunching of an engineering degree - but does the sheer volume of work compare? You know how engineering students supposedly have no time for anything but studying (that's the reputation anyway) - would the same be said of PLAN II?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Really? head over to something awful, most people regretted doing it. They felt that the work they did had no real purpose in helping them after undergrad. </p>
<p>When I said Plan II is extra work, I didn't mean it like engineering work. I meant it like you're given work to do that isn't relevent to your primary major and probably wont help too much in terms of providing you with on-the-job knowledge. If what you're looking for is some broad liberal arts program with small discussions then yeah, do Plan II.</p>
<p>But if you're looking for an edge in terms of careers, you'd probably do better off with departmental honors.</p>
<p>"I meant it like you're given work to do that isn't relevent to your primary major and probably wont help too much in terms of providing you with on-the-job knowledge. If what you're looking for is some broad liberal arts program with small discussions then yeah, do Plan II."</p>
<p>That is exactly why many people do and I think should do Plan II. When you think about it, a lot of people really don't need to major in something that teaches them job skills (atleast for business, medicine, & law - hard sciences and engineering are arguably different). Just a couple of science courses are enough to fulfill pre-med requirements. Pretty much any major will work for business or law.</p>
<p>For example, in the business world, many of the people who get top jobs at consulting firms and ibanks didn't do any sort of undergrad business. Many of these people were liberal arts majors at the ivies. They had no clue how to do most accounting work or any financial modeling. The banks taught them everything they needed to know and they were successful. I think many jobs are like this.</p>
<p>So, instead of spending your time learning stuff that your employer will teach, expand your horizons and do Plan II.</p>
<p>10-15 books per semester does seem like a bit much, and I'm an avid reader! But, maybe a better question would be: which books are these? Classics, all? Books that have literary value but are boring to read? Or did you breeze thru them, unable to put them down? Were you assigned approx. 1 book per week, then discussed them in class the following week? Did you only do papers on some of the books, but discuss all of them? Were they an assortment of genres?</p>
<p>So, 2 PLAN II courses per semester...does that mean a total of 10-15 books PER class, as you said, meaning 20-30 books total per semester? Or did only 1 of the PLAN II classes assign those books?</p>
<p>I'm assuming the 2 PLAN II courses are literature-based and the other 2-3 courses would be the calculus, biology, etc.</p>
<p>Here's another question: since the PLAN II enrollment is small, how much choice is there on class times? Are there only 1 or 2 options for each PLAN II class, or are there any options at all? or are all of the students required to take the same classes? I'm wondering about pragmatic issues like time of class. My son is not a morning person. If the PLAN II classes are ONLY offered at 8:00 am, for example, then that alone might rule it out. I know this might sound really petty, but I am trying to be realistic here. It's always good to know as much as possible about something before making a commitment to it. I suspect that's why some people regretted it - they didn't find out enough about it to make sure it was a good match.</p>
<p>Lealdragon,</p>
<p>I'll start with class times. In his first 2 years, our son's Plan II classes were between 10 AM and 5 PM, and most of those were in the afternoon (he's not a morning person either). I can't promise you that all Plan II classes are in the late morning or afternoon - maybe our son was lucky in his schedule - but I don't recall any Plan II classes that are offered at 8 AM. (The non-Plan II classes are a different story. Available times and courses depend heavily on class rank and the department the course is in.) </p>
<p>You are correct that there aren't as many Plan II classes to choose from as UT's regular curriculum but your son should be able to schedule all the Plan II classes he needs each semester. There doesn't seem to be as much competition for times as for topics or professors because some topics/professors are very popular. In his freshman year, our son wanted a tutorial course that had a popular, current events-type topic. He didn't get it but the course he took ended up his favorite class of his first 2 years. I think virtually all the Plan II topics and professors are good and many are special.</p>
<p>As for reading requirements, almost all the Plan II courses are heavy reading courses and have a significant writing component. At least one and occasionally both of our son's Plan II courses would have 10 or more books per course. However, our son had read some of the books in high school, and it would probably be the same for your son. In addition, part of college is learning how to prioritize - deciding which books to read carefully and which books to skim. You get used to seeing Plan II students that always have a book with them so they can read a few pages in every spare moment.</p>
<p>I'm sure there are some Plan II students who work harder than others. That's human nature. I think it's fair to say that Plan II rewards the diligent student and not the ambivalent student. To put it in everyday language, it's hard to coast in Plan II. It's been done but not often.</p>
<p>Finally, the non-Plan II courses vary quite a bit between students. In the first 2 years, most students take some courses that are general requirements - math/science courses, language, fine arts, etc. In addition, many Plan II students are pursuing dual degrees so they typically take lower division courses in their second major. Our son, who is a Plan II/business student, placed out of his required non-Plan II science and math courses so his other courses were things like economics, accounting, communication skills, and other lower division business classes. Those classes usually had only 1 or 2 books but the material can be more difficult to read if you haven't been exposed to the subject before, plus time-consuming daily/weekly homework assignments. My guess is it all evens out.</p>
<p>Very helpful - thanks!</p>
<p>So is 2 PLAN II classes per semester the standard? As in, they don't take 3 or PLAN II classes? So a typical semester is 6 hours of PLAN II, + 2 or 3 other classes?</p>
<p>Lealdragon,</p>
<p>Plan II students usually take 1-2 Plan II courses a semester. Here's a sample degree plan:</p>
<p>
[quote]
First Year
Fall Semester</p>
<pre><code>* English 603A or TC 603A:Composition and Reading in World Literature
* Modes of Reasoning/Logic
</code></pre>
<p>Spring Semester</p>
<pre><code>* English 603B or TC 603B:Composition and Reading in World Literature *
</code></pre>
<p>Fall or Spring Semester</p>
<pre><code>* TC 301 Freshman Tutorial *
<p>Second Year
Fall Semester</p>
<pre><code>* Philosophy 610QA: Problems of Knowledge and Valuation
</code></pre>
<p>Spring Semester</p>
<pre><code>* Philosophy 610QB: Problems of Knowledge and Valuation
</code></pre>
<p>Fall or Spring Semester</p>
<pre><code>* Social Science 301
</code></pre>
<p>Third Year
Fall Semester</p>
<pre><code>* TC 357 (Junior Seminar)
</code></pre>
<p>Spring Semester</p>
<pre><code>* TC 357 (Junior Seminar)
</code></pre>
<p>Fall or Spring Semester</p>
<pre><code>* Physics 341, Plan II
</code></pre>
<p>Fourth Year
Full Year -- Fall and Spring Semesters</p>
<pre><code>* TC 660HA and TC 660HB (1-year thesis)
</code></pre>
<p>Either Fall or Spring Semester</p>
<pre><code>* TC 359T (1-semester thesis)
</code></pre>
<p>Plan II Requirements that can be fulfilled during any semester:</p>
<pre><code>* American History
* American History
* Non-U.S. History, early
* Non-U.S. History, late
* Humanities/Fine Arts
* Humanities/Fine Arts
* Government 310L
* Government 312L
* Biology 301E, Plan II
* Math 310, Plan II (spring)
* Math/Science
* Math/Science or Physics 309K
* Foreign Language 506
* Foreign Language 507
* Foreign Language 312K
* Foreign Language 312L
* Electives - 32-35 credits, approximately 10-12 classes
</code></pre>
<p>
[/quote]
Plan II advising link: <a href="http://www.utexas.edu/cola/progs/plan2/advising/curriculum/%5B/url%5D">http://www.utexas.edu/cola/progs/plan2/advising/curriculum/</a></p>
<p>Is it possible to apply to both Plan II and the Liberal Arts Honors program (Plan I...?) with the same application and decide later depending on acceptance/rejection?</p>