Please critique Son's list

Parents Forum
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<p>Non-URM male rising HS senior from NYC suburbs applying this fall for Fall '07 entry. He wants "the classic U of Michigan-type experience [he went there for a summer program]," by which I think he means a big campus in/near a college town, with a good sports and social scene, lots of course selections since he's Undecided (though leaning towards Business/Mangagment), and top students and faculty to stimulate the mind. I also think he'd like to be within about a three-hour flight from home (although maybe that's me talking).</p>

<p>SATI - 2100 (700R/690M/710Wr)</p>

<p>SATII - 650 Physics, 670 US Hist</p>

<p>ECs - Good varsity wrestler but not a recruit, lots of working with younger kids, some community service, and some quirky things he does on his own</p>

<p>Grades - This is his problem. His 87 average only puts him in the middle of the class. This is unweighted, he took a super-tough curriculum, and the school is an A+++ public, but still the grades will hurt a lot.</p>

<p>The List:</p>

<p>Super-reaches - Cornell, U Michigan, U North Carolina, Lehigh</p>

<p>Reaches - U Wisconsin, Penn State</p>

<p>Targets - Syracuse, U Maryland, SUNY Binghamton (in-state), U Delaware, U Illinois, U Florida </p>

<p>Safeties - SUNY Albany (in-state), U Mass, U Conn</p>

<p>Too ambitious? Too many schools? Additions? Really appreciate it!!!</p>

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<p>Roscoe, </p>

<p>The list does not look bad to me. </p>

<p>One thing you might do is check with your kid's HS guidance dept. to see if they keep a list of who got in where. My D's HS did that, took out names and put the stuff in a binder sorted by college. So you could see what GPA and SAT total worked and what didn't at different colleges. </p>

<p>For middle of the pack kids (and that's most of them!) admissions success depends a lot on a college's experience with the HS.</p>

<p>U. Illinois takes a pretty small % from out of state, so be forwarned. And U Mass has become tougher in recent years, too.</p>

<p>I might add a "safer" safety or two. Use the guides to find out those that don't take only those in the top 1/2, if your son is below. </p>

<p>His SAT scores will help, but all these schools you list use formulaic screening. We just don't know the formulas.</p>

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<p>That's a LOT of schools. Maybe you should do one super reach and fewer matches and safeties.</p>

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<p>I'd knock at least one off each list, maybe more depending on his desires. Many of these he will know yea or nay, way before April 1st, so I would use that fact to strategize. I realize the apps may be relatively easy, but sometimes more just means more decisions to wade through.
If he is seriously considering Florida, get him to take a look at Georgia and South Carolina, particularly Ga, can't beat Athens as a college town.
You may laugh, but he could apply to the Univ of Alabama today, it would meet all the requirements you listed, he will get a reply in 3-6 weeks, with honors college and a merit offer, most likely. Southwest flys into B'ham, so it should be less than 3 hours. My speculation is that his COA at UofA will be less than in-state at SUNY Albany, and a whole lot more fun (maybe too much fun). The business program is not bad at all, some involvement with Mercedes like engineering is now and the honors college draws some top students, although he will not qualify for Computer Honors (that is on the order of Plan II at Texas).</p>

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<p>Roscoe:
You have a very bright son who is well-rounded. His grades will hurt him in the highly selectives but the fact that he has been in a good school certainly shows in those strong test scores! The adcoms will grasp that his school mates are a tough crowd and consider that in his grades.<br>
Not every kid can get a 710 in writing for instance! The grades I fear mean that if he is not a recruit in some venue (sports/arts/team of some kind) that Cornell and UNC are out. Carolina only takes 15% of OOSers by law and they tend to have near Ivy grades/stats. HOWEVER..I would definitely apply to Cornell anyhow and mean it--visit, show interest etc.<br>
I grew up in Delaware..and U of Delaware is a great place where he would stand out and probably be very stimulated. They have an honors program and wonder if he should eyeball that. I think it really makes a difference in lecture class sizes..he would likely get looked at for Honors tracks.</p>

<p>Here is my question for you. I don't think it is wise to push a kid to focus on testing but if the kid wants it..my S suddenly decided as he approached age 18 (Massive new axon/dendrite connections..I have no idea) that his SATs which were similar to your S's but not quite as good actually..were not his Last Best Effort. We had already settled on a list of colleges and visited and planned based on his sub 700 scores.<br>
He chained himself to his desk two or three spring and autumn Sunday afternoons until he figured out where he was screwing up on the SAT and losing easy points re poor timing and missing easy math questions. He took actual tests with actual timers. He devoted two evenings to SATII books before taking the tests and aced them. He ate energy bars in the 15 minute breaks. He generally woke up. The next time he took the SATs in October he gained 200 points and totally altered his choices (and we had to do some mad dashing around.)
I repeat. Only if the kid wants to redo testing..not a parental agenda.
I add. This means my S is in a college (Duke) where a majority of kids made his test scores without this Extra Self Tutoring...so guess what...his classmates also test fast and well in class exams, too. (keep this stress factor in mind.)
But he had some terrific options in April based on his own efforts. He likes being around challenging students. He is where he fits in but he does have to hustle to keep abreast. All these things are factors. What kind of personality is your son, what kind of peers make him happy, can he deal with being average in a school of high achievers and stay mentally upbeat, can he take classes where you don't meet your Prof and meet with TAs instead and still learn? </p>

<p>Second point. Nothing wrong and much Right in a place like the University of Michigan. Except for large class sizes. We decided our S was not a match as a learner in that setting and we have great state schools in Virginia. Be realistic about class size and learning styles. Many guys at 18 do not have the upload skills to teach themselves daily in large settings yet.</p>

<p>Third related point. Has your S grasped that Liberal Arts Colleges favor males in admissions in order to keep the gender balance liveable? Has he seen that some Liberal Arts students excel much more in PhD programs later due to the benefit of the small labs and courses etc. Your son would be recruited at a place like Elon, Furman, and a large list of LACs that deliver in the classroom.
He can also play the geographic diversity card if he goes South or west.<br>
Have you considered James Madison University in Virginia? Or Virginia Tech if large is a Must? Please keep in mind that Virginia colleges are one third DC people who are diverse and Middle Atlantic in outlook. The VA coast is heavily military, too. So Tech and Madison have many DC students. Here is a gem of a school recruiting males in your son's profile. Mary Washington in beautiful Fredericksburg. a 7 dollar train ride to DC. 60% female. Looks and feels like a private college. They would love him and class size is excellent.</p>

<p>Bucknell? Clemson? Rhodes? Memphis is a whiz bang city.</p>

<p>Lastly..you have a great kid. Enjoy this time with him and let him make the choices. Kids usually know their own temperaments and where they will emotionally thrive and that counts. But get him to spend a night at a smaller college before finally choosing a big school is my notion. best!</p>

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<p>Roscoe:</p>

<p>My daughter looked at some of the same top publics. I was able to get some pretty useful data accessing her chances, especially SAT scores for white out-of-state students at UVa and the points system calculator that Michigan used (right before the Supreme Court knocked it down).</p>

<p>For a white out-of-state applicant from a NYC suburb with 2100 SATs and class rank well outside the top 10%, I think Mich and UNC-Chapel Hill are probably unrealistic reaches. Out of state at places like Berkeley, Mich, UVa, and Chapel Hill is one of the worst admissions values around. By that, I mean that the number of applicants makes admissions at these schools much more difficult than it should be or would be at comparable schools. You are definitely paying an admissions "premium". Just compare the stats of in-state students to out-of-state students at those universities, keeping in mind that you are paying out-of-state admissions "prices" for a student body with in-state "stats". </p>

<p>IMO, out-of-state admissions at those schools is roughly comparable to Emory, Vanderbilt, Tufts, and so forth.</p>

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<p>Illinois will be a difficult reach. Among Big Ten universities, however, take a look at Iowa and Indiana. Both are very good large universities in great college towns, and a little easier to get admitted to. Ohio State, MSU and Minnesota are also more reachable, but they are in bigger cities and may not have quite the atmosphere your son wants. Kentucky is another possibility, and if he's willing to go to the south, South Carolina or Georgia, both good schools in good college towns. Good luck!</p>

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<p>I second the Alabama recommendation. Tuscaloosa is a college town; the campus is nice, the sports and social scene (especially if he's interested in fraternities) is great. I'm sure the academics are vastly improved from when I was there, but it's a great place for a bright but not 4.0 GPA student to shine. He'll get lots of opportunities that he wouldn't get at a place like Michigan with more competitive admissions. </p>

<p>The other advantage Alabama has is the weather--not such long cold winters as Big 10 schools.</p>

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<p>I totally agree with interesteddad re. OOS chances and value.</p>

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<p>I think that Penn State, Florida, Maryland and even UDelaware are comparable as far as admission possibilities. Florida may be the most difficult from the stats that I have seen.</p>

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<p>I would second Michigan State.</p>

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<p>Re Maryland: Business is a Limited Enrollment program. If your son is interested in it, he should probably apply as a business major and see whether he gets in. If he is admitted to the major, he can always change his mind and switch to something else later. But if he applies as Undecided, he might not be able to get into Business a few semesters down the road. Also, if he is admitted to the university but not the business program, he might want to cross Maryland off his list.</p>

<p>That said, I think your son might like Maryland. It's a big school with lots of sports and social activities. The out of staters are mostly from your part of the country. And there are some interesting special interest programs for freshmen (look up College Park Scholars on the university Web site, for example). The campus is also within easy reach of Washington, DC, by public transportation, which is a big plus in a lot of students' opinions. However, Maryland does have one big minus: once you get beyond the immediate vicinity of the campus, the area is not very nice. Your son might want to visit at some point to see whether this bothers him.</p>

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<p>I like Newmassdad's advice. I know in our former school district, being in the lower half, or even at the half point was a kiss of death for getting into Penn State. Most state colleges use a formula involving the SAT1 scores, the class rank, and the date you get the app in. But there are also minimums in the numbers-below a certain SAT will not get you in despite the highest numbers in the other categories. However, I noticed that there are highschools where a B average or being at the half way mark is not an impediment at all. Your counselor would have this info about your state uni. Now, out of state is a whole different story. Kids with lower GPAs from rigorous prep school are often at a disadvantage in the app process at the big state schools.
I don't think the list is bad because those larger state schools usually have easy apps, and do not care about demonstrated interest, so the applicant can focus on those schools on his list that do.</p>

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<p>Unlike some state universities, Penn State does not have higher admissions standards for out-of-state students than for in-state students. They just charge out-of-staters more money. It is not all that difficult to get in to Penn State, and the school has rolling admissions, which is nice because it means that applicants can have one acceptance letter in hand really early, which has a wonderful impact on household stress.</p>

<p>I would say that Penn State is a target for your son, not a reach.</p>

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<p>You have received some good advice so far. The only thing that I can add based on your "3-hour flight" desire is to look at the availability of airports with direct connections to the NYC area. Places like MSU, while offering much of what your son is after would require a connecting flight which typically adds to the cost as well as the time and hassle of transit. This is probably of secondary import, but may be a useful tie-breaker.</p>

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<p>Well, I would choose Michigan, Berkeley, and UNC over Emory, Tufts and Vanderbilt.</p>

<p>Roscoe, my daughter was not in the top 10% of her class and she got into Michigan. Her classes for the most part are not large. People see big school, and see large classes. They don't know what they are talking about. You can have good relationships with professors if that is what you want. The advising from counselors does leave a lot to be desired (at least so far). </p>

<p>By the way, a student from my kid's high school got into Swarthmore with a 3.47 gpa. Somebody got into Claremont witha 3.0 gpa. You never know. </p>

<p>So I would definitely apply to Michigan. Your son has been there and likes it (He is not wrong). Michigan does give an advantage to kids that apply early. </p>

<p>As for the other schools, I would try to eliminate at least 5 schools. </p>

<p>I would have your son apply to any school he wants to go to and see what happens. If he doesn't get in, he doesn't get in.</p>

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<p>How about Northeastern instead of UMass for a safety? Great location in Boston, up and coming, just went up 17 points on the USNews Rankings, for a business major the coop program is a plus. With those stats he would probably get some merit money...Boston-the ultimate college town..</p>

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<p>Northeastern is not a traditional rah rah uni. The young man wants something with sports, spirit, like a traditional flagship state university.</p>

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<p>I guess you have never been to a Northeastern hockey game. But each to his own taste..</p>

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<p>Magnificent input so far. Very grateful and hoping for more.</p>

<p>By the way, forgot to mention ....</p>

<p>Cornell - His older brother went there, FWIW.</p>

<p>Michigan - His high school seems to have a great pipeline to UM; others have gotten in with lower SATs and grades not all that much higher.</p>

<p>In addition to those two, we've also visited Wisconsin, Maryland, Delaware, Syracuse, Binghamton (and liked them all, esp. Wisc). I think flying 1,000 miles to Wisconsin ought to get him a few brownie points, no?</p>