<p>I know some of them are as competitive and costly as PHYS. I heard boys have an edge for some of them. I heard students from top LAC's have a higher rate of getting into PH.D. programs. Other than that, I know little about LAC.</p>
<p>What is the biggest difference between a University said Duke and a LAC said Williams? What are some of the pros and cons of attending a LAC?</p>
<p>This is part of our planning to cast wide net for reach and match. </p>
<p>Thanks in advance.</p>
<p>Think of a university as a shopping mall with all kinds of stores. An undergrad store. A medical school store. A law school store. A PhD store in every department. An engineering store. And, generating the most revenue, a contract research store where all the professors spend much of their time.</p>
<p>Think of a liberal arts college as a small boutique store. Teaching undergrads. Period. That's the entire focus. That's all they do. No grad students teach classes. No professors more worried about landing research contracts than teaching undergrads.</p>
<p>Isn't your D already a senior and got her acceptances?</p>
<p>I am confused. Is this for a young D?</p>
<p>^for his son.</p>
<p>As I recall, your son and mine sound somewhat similar, both very bright boys who don't have as much drive as their older sisters (well, at least not yet). S is interested in mech engineering, so we just got back from a trip to the East, where we looked at a whole range of schools, ranging from big university (Cornell) to small university (Brown, Tufts), to tech school (MIT, RPI, WPI), to LAC with engineering (Union). It was very educational - we found out a lot about what he likes and doesn't like, both in academics and environment. What are your son's interests?</p>
<p>DadII, My son is a recent graduate of Williams. I think he received, for him, the best of all possible educations. I emphasize "for him" because I think LACs are extremely subjective; they have distinctive personalities and it's important to find the one that matches.</p>
<p>The attributes of the small LAC that appealed to my son were small classes taught by professors (not graduate students) whose sole focus is to teach. Yes, they may be brilliant researchers, award winning writers, acclaimed artists -- but their mission is to teach undergradutates, which they perform with passion. They are accessible and available. They answer their e-mails. They take a personal interest. They know enough about their students to write deeply personal letters of recommendation.</p>
<p>Invariably when my husband and I visted and had a meal in a Williamstown restaurant, one of our son's professors would come up to us and relate some friendly and funny anecdote about him. He felt he had found his people and they guided and inspired him. intellectually and creatively. </p>
<p>Now that he's ready to start asking for graduate school recommendations the question is not whom to ask, but which of the many, many fine professors to choose. These people will be his friends and mentors for the rest of his life.</p>
<p>Could he have found the same relationships at a large or medium sized school? Yes, but for him -- a bright and talented, but not so aggressive student -- it would have more difficult, more random. At a school like Williams it would be virtually impossible not to be supported and nurtured. They care.</p>
<p>Appreciate the perspective on Williams momrath. DS is visiting Williams this week and I hope he can finally decide on a school. His choices are between a small university(Rice), medium sized (UVa), and three somewhat comperable LAC's Amherst, Williams, Middlebury. Just last night, I was using the US News comparison chart to put the schools side by side. I looked up how Wikipedia defined the liberal arts experience but found it not too definitive. From our visits it really seems a matter of his personal tastes more than anything. DS likes them all for different reasons. The differences are relatively subtle to my S. If others are willing to chime in their comparisons of the LAC vs university experience or direct me to another CC thread that has illustrated it, I would be appreciative as well. He wants to go into international studies with an emphasis on east asia. Where he would go with this may very well depend on his peer group and profs. Midd would seem the obvious choice from the LAC's but what if he changes his mind as so many tend to do? Amherst has the open curriculum, consortium, Williams so well regarded, but the most rural, Rice so warm, and in a cosmopolitan area, UVa more people, more course offerings. What's a S to do?</p>
<p>So, students attending a LAC may lack of research opportunity like a large university? But they get a better classroom experiences? </p>
<p>We have visited quite a few campus. To be honest, I don't know how could a student get to know a college well within that one day tour. Everyone smiles on the tour day and they get their best student to show off their best areas.</p>
<p>Dad II - if you are looking at LAC's because boys "have an edge" in terms of admissions at some of them, you should look at each school closely for that data. Williams is not one of the LAC's where boys have an edge, but there are other top LAC's where that is the case.</p>
<p>Madville, your son isn't to go wrong with any of his choices!</p>
<p>Dad II - students attending a LAC might have more research opportunities, earlier in their collegiate career, because they won't be competing with grad students for those slots. Of course at any one LAC, the range of research opportunities would be more limited than at a large research university.</p>
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Madville, your son isn't to go wrong with any of his choices!
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<p>Thanks for the reassurances. Since we both have the same collegiate experience background (none) unless you count OSU football games, we are prone to second guessing and "what ifs". I will pass on the words of encouragement to him.</p>
<p>"Fit" and "culture" matter more at a LAC because they tend to be smaller and in more isolated locations. At large private university, there will always be a large group-or many groups-that your kid can fit into. A 'reputation' of any sort, acquired during a first year, can be shed more easily in the greater annonymity of a large school. Of course, the flip side is that it's easy to feel lost and disconnected. While I don't think its true that everyone knows everyone in a 2,000 student LAC, I do think its harder to hide. </p>
<p>That said, if you son/daughter does find a good fit at a LAC, it can be life-changing. Determining fit isn't that hard with all the information now available on the web, in college guides, on forums like this, and through visits.</p>
<p>madville -- This is totally subjective, so take with a grain of salt, but Rice seems to offer the best of both worlds -- very small size for a uni, that wonderful residential college experience, serious academics. PLUS no frats and sororities. And the internship experiences of a big city.
DadII -- mini and many others on CC would be happy to tell you of exceptional research opportunities their children have had at LACs.</p>
<p>My son is at a highly selective LAC (one of the high NESCACs). Purely educational issues aside, my impression is that the ultimate opportunities differ somewhat from those associated with equally selective large universities. His school is well-known in academic circles, and so would be good for graduate schools of all kinds. It is also well-known among rich, powerful people, particularly in the Northeast. However, compared to, for example, Cornell (which I do not think is quite as selective), I think his school would be less well-known and respected at (for example) among medium-sized businesses in California.</p>
<p>It all comes down to personal preference. The reality is that large universities, smaller universities, masters universities (schools that do not award PhD) and LACs all have their strengths...and weaknesses, but these will vary by the student.</p>
<p>DD is attending a masters university. At her school, guys DO have an edge as there are 60% females on the campus. The school met her criteria for what she was looking for and that is all that mattered to us. BUT this same student's second choice was a large university. So...go figure.</p>
<p>Many LACs (and master's universities) do not have teaching assistants at all, and for some students, this is a huge plus. Classes tend to be smaller, and accessibility to professors is excellent. It is easy to get personal advising as the schools simply are smaller. These were important to DD.</p>
<p>OTOH...larger universities have a larger menu of choices. There are many many students with whom to forge relationships. And remember too, that some have honors colleges that make that "big school" seem smaller.</p>
<p>I think it is important for students (note...students) to make a list of what THEY are looking for in a college. Urban/other, large/small, private/public, religious affiliation/not, housing options, courses of study, internship opportunities, study abroad, financial aid, proximity to home...WHATEVER is important to that student.</p>
<p>I could say...GEE...DD's school is top notch...and it is in her field (engineering). BUT it would be a horrible choice for someone who wanted to pursue a degree in education. They don't offer it.</p>
<p>I could say that DS's large urban university is a perfect place...and it was for him (fine arts major..being in a city was perfect), but it would have been horrible for someone wanting a smaller community of learners.</p>
<p>Make a list with your son, Dad II...and see what his priorities are. THEN start looking at schools that will fulfill his requirements. You may find that, like DD, it will not be between the LAC/University...but that applying to a variation will work.</p>
<p>Dad II - I recently left this message on the Harvard forum for a student deciding between Harvard and Amherst: "I have a D at Harvard who is having LAC-quality interactions with faculty, but she's a flaming extrovert. She has no problem showing up for office hours at a celebrity faculty member's office, indicating what she wants, and negotiating the kinds of experiences and advocacy she'd like to have. Harvard is her perfect milieu. I'm not nearly as forthcoming, and I'd have probably benefitted from a small college where caring faculty could have noticed my strengths and drawn me out. If I had your choice, Amherst would probably be a wise decision. But then, if I'd had an interviewer detect that I'm less likely to self-advocate and put myself out there, I probably wouldn't have been accepted at Harvard." </p>
<p>I'm certainly not suggesting that reticence is the only reason, or even a major reason that students choose LACs, but for me Williams would have been the best of all possible fits. The close-knit sense of community would have been my cup of tea, and had I gotten into Williams out of HS, I think that I'd have had the best college experience possible. Of course, when I was in HS in the DC area, I'd never heard of Williams - that's one of the challenges faced by LACs.</p>
<p>Wow, this thread may be a godsend. After reading these posts, I think a LAC might be what my son needs. He thrives in smaller settings, is used to having excellent teachers and is never going to be one of those Hermione Granger look at me!!!! types. His teachers love him, one writing in a recommendation that he is "humble" about his academics, which I think was a nice way of saying that he's an introvert, but that's always made me sad that he doesn't shine like others. Still, the teachers who look know what a gem he is.</p>
<p>In my experience, your kids may also have a strong sense of LAC or no LAC. I took both my children to look at top-notch LACs on their college visits. Both of them, independently, told me they felt too much like high school. </p>
<p>My kids have gone to small private schools all their lives, so perhaps that contributed to their desire to go bigger. For some reason both of them really preferred a school size of 3,000-10,000 kids. In any case, they were really really clear about their feelings:).</p>
<p>Also, even if a kid has his or her heart set on a LAC or a big university I think it is wise to have at least one of the other type of school on the list. What a kid is looking for in a school can change between the summer before senior year and the May 1st decision deadline.</p>
<p>Editing to add: I didn't see Alumother's post before mine. Some kids may be crystal clear like hers and not need both types on their lists, but I think it is a good idea for most.</p>
<p>My son wanted a LAC but we knew FA was going to be a big factor in his decision making and we needed to cast a wide net. So, we also looked for bigger schools that had special seminars in his field of interest which would give him the opportunity to get to know fellow students and professors who share his interests. We figured in a larger school there would be more students with interests in common, and those programs would provide a way to meet them. We also looked for schools with residential college systems which would provide another way of creating a smaller community within a large school. FA turns out to be better for us at these bigger schools.</p>
<p>IMO, the way to start a college search is to go visit representative samples of large universities, mid-size universities, and small LACs. In addition visit representative samples of urban, suburban, and rural campuses. These don't even have to be the exact schools under consideration. These visits are simply to explore the "types". In many cases, it would be possible to visit the entire range in a short trip to a single city or region. For example, all of these options are available for perusal within two hours of Philadelphia or two hours of Boston or two hours of Los Angeles (except maybe "rural").</p>
<p>This will provide a basic real-world sense of the scale and ambience of the available options and will almost certainly trigger some reactions that at least start to cull the field a little bit. (i.e. NO to urban or NO to large or whatever). At least it's a start.</p>