My son was STEM, but undecided and had a lot of the same wishes as your daughter. One thing she will need to decide is how interested is she in applying and starting as an engineering major being undecided. At many of the public schools mentioned, you have to start in engineering - this was an issue for my son - although he did ultimately apply to Utah as an engineering major even though he was undecided.
He did not have the stats of your daughter, so many of his schools would be non-reaches. He applied to University of Utah, Colorado State, University of Denver, Case Western and University of Rochester. Accepted at all, merit at Denver, Case and University of Rochester (I would anticipate your daughter would receive substantially more merit, but Denver, CSU and Case ended up around $40K between merit and WUE)
He was pretty enthusiastic about Case before visiting - it is a very urban campus, so she needs to understand that going in. My son just did not like it after visiting - but he was not interested in urban.
He ultimately decided on University of Rochester. Really liked their flexible curriculum and have a very pretty self contained campus close enough to Rochester to not feel isolated, but far enough to not feel like he was in the city. FYI they have a significant international population, so most of their diversity is driven by internationals, but it was significantly more diverse than many schools on his list.
If she doesn’t like hot - forget about Arizona, it’s extremely hot. And if she wants option for engineering she really needs to cull the list based on that - many of the ones you’ve listed do not having anything even close to Aerospace.
My kid’s top two were MIT and Chicago- having spent time on both campuses (and spouse is a Chicago alum) I do not agree with this assessment at all. Chicago is not a great choice for engineering- but for math? econ? physics? Fine choice. And my kid found the environments (intellectually at least) to be pretty comparable.
OP- there’s some helpful information on this thread, and some very subjective, probably not too accurate stuff as well. At this point I think you’ve got more than enough options to explore. I will point out that a lot of HS kids do not have a good handle on what engineers do, or what an engineering curriculum entails. So maybe heading down that rabbit hole (if your D looks at the required courses at 5 different engineering programs and decides “yuk” than you can cross engineering off the list!) is a good use of her time right now.
Oh no, we were really hopeful Case Western would be “it”. Can I ask what took it off the list? We’ve never been to Ohio.
@chrisntine I’d never been to Ohio before this summer either. We did a week long driving trip through OH, PA, MD, and DE (all new areas to my family) to check out several school campuses and the nearby neighborhoods. Case Western’s campus itself was fine, close to major hospitals, with some shops in the immediate vicinity. A main arterial street crosses through the middle of campus, and there were frequent ambulance sirens going off (because of the hospitals). A month ago, the Ohio AG joined other Republican attorneys general in a lawsuit against the federal government, to overturn anti-discrimination laws against LGBTQ. California just yesterday banned travel to OH for state government business due to Ohio’s recent passage of a law permitting doctors, nurses, pharmacists, counselors, social workers, researchers and others to deny services to LGBTQ if they have a “conscience-based objection” to the service requested. That’s a hard pass for us. Neither of these actions had occurred before our trip to Case Western, because if they had, we would never have bothered going. I guess I’m not surprised by Ohio’s actions just based on the vibe I picked up while we were there.
Don’t confuse the politics of elected statewide officials with those of a college or an urban area which is very liberal. If you start doing this you can mark off half the country.
I mean would you decline Rice or Vandy bcuz their state governments may be considered ass backward ? I live in TN. The politics are not my cup of tea but it’s a wonderful place to live and you find your space.
If Case were right for you, I would not dismiss it simply for this reason.
She might consider keeping Scripps on her radar, since she already has Pomona and Mudd in her high-enthusiasm categories. The 5C’s are so blended that there’s really no anti-inclusiveness going on. As a Scripps student, she would have only three classes in her whole undergrad career that wouldn’t have men in them. The housing is single-gender but there are plenty of guys around. Many if not most Scripps students were not specifically looking for a women’s college. My daughter’s primary major was based at Pomona, and she took classes based on every campus - about a third of her classes at Scripps, a third at Pomona, and a third divided among the other three. She got half-tuition merit from Scripps, which was a pretty big selling point for us!
Has your D looked at the Cognitive Science department at UCSD? That could really cover a lot of her bases, interests-wise. There are multiple tracks that allow students to emphasize CS, neuroscience, and design, among others. This could give her the flexibility she’s looking for; she wouldn’t have the option to switch into engineering, but she could definitely get enough of a CS foundation to take her career in that direction if she chose, and there’s a lot of room to explore. She can also look at the different core curricula for the different residential colleges to see which she likes - she’ll have to rank her top three choices when applying.
You haven’t mentioned UW Seattle, but the HCDE major there (Human Centered Design & Engineering) could also be a potential fit, as well as the surroundings and climate. UW was a runner-up for my Scripps kid, who loved it when we toured; but it didn’t add up when she could go to a Claremont for the same price, and didn’t get into Honors at UW (which your D very well might) or direct-admit into HCDE (but engineering admissions have changed since then, and you can now get direct-admit to the engineering school generally, and sort into a major later). If your D were to get direct-admit into engineering, an honors offer, and the max OOS merit, it could be a pretty nice option.
Has she thought about Industrial Design as a major? SJSU and Long Beach have programs. Western Washington U in Bellingham also has a particularly cool Industrial Design program, and it’s also a WUE school (competitive for WUE awards but shouldn’t be a problem for your D) - very very nice PNW location, too. The Multi-Disciplinary Design major at U of Utah (another WUE school) is another neat program.
Anti-LGBTQ (for example) politics and policies from the state government may be a political issue that many can put away when not talking politics. However, those who are LGBTQ may not be able to put it away since the politics and policies more directly affect LGBTQ people, so it becomes a quality-of-life issue for LGBTQ people.
(You can substitute any other outgroup targeted for hostile discrimination for LGBTQ above for other examples.)
I understand. The flipside to that is, if a school is a wonderful fit and their policies don’t align with the states, I would hate for a student to miss that opportunity. In other word, tie-ing n the college with the state may be unfair.
And let’s say - for example - had Larry Elder won in CA - and no he didn’t…but something similar could have happened there. One doesn’t know what the future holds so anywhere you go a change in political activity is always a possibility.
The state may allow a doctor to deny services but that doesn’t mean the CWRU or local doctors will be doing so. It’s penalizing good people because of a few bad.
I understand your comment though and where the OP would be coming from. Just wanted to point out to them - there will be still many a person…likely the far majority…going business as usual…especially within Cleveland and at CWRU.
If this were Hillsdale or Liberty, I’d understand.
According to Niche on “liberalness” CWRU is within the top half of colleges in the country.
Again, just another perspective but I totally understand the comment.
Yes, actually, Vandy and Rice are off our list simply based on the states they are located in. Rice especially was very attractive, we did a quick visit there a couple years ago, but Texas is a no especially now. TN is a no. Why, with all the choices available, would I spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to support states with policies directly harmful to my child? I believe you that the cities may good and well be liberal and accepting, but spiteful state laws give LGBTQ no leg to stand on if someone decides to treat them like they are less than other human beings. I’m not paying a big chunk of money to support that level of bigotry.
My longer view on this is that internships/co-ops, post-grad jobs may well come from the surrounding community where the school is located. D may end up staying long term. It would be a smoother transition if that state is a good one for my kid to begin with. I can’t see the future, I can’t tell if the policies in a state will change for the better or worse. All I can work with is the information in front of me right now, and what the trends there have been over the years.
Bigots are everywhere and great people are everywhere.
I appreciate your thoughts and as a consumer, you are free to spend your money where you want.
I will tell you, with a kid in college and with other friends having kids in school, while it might seem like there is correlation to location and future and it certainly could be true, it’s not necessarily true.
As for the future - I work in automotive - so Nissan moved to TN - and the employees have little choice, even if they disagree. Toyota is a huge employer and moved to TX and thousands went.
I understand your position and wanting to protect your daughter and I can appreciate it. It’s certainly your right as a consumer.
I just think it’s people, not laws, that cause harm meaning you can be in liberal Vermont, but still have someone refuse to serve you…or bake you a cake as happened in Colorado the other year. On the other hand, you can be in a state with laws you find offensive, yet never experience any harm.
But I appreciate your position and passion and wish you luck finding a suitable school for your daughter.
She’s obviously a wonderful student and will no doubt succeed wherever she ends up and obviously she will have tons of opportunities - but as I said in an earlier message, I hope she finds a wonderful “easier to get into” opportunity because while her list is awesome, it’s mainly reachy even for the best. Good luck.
I wonder if SB8 will slow the California exodus. If I were a top executive considering relocating to Texas, I would now be very concerned that the employees may not follow.
I think the reality is people go where the work is - and Texas, TN, and other states have booming populations because they have no state income tax and a lower cost of living.
The average person is not going to have an abortion and no one is planning for one - wo while people may be upset by the political climate, they’re not going to move for something they’re never going to be in danger of needing. Yes, they may be pro choice but again, it’s not like the average person has an abortion. I think offers like Salesforce is more a position taken / company marketing than something that will be utilized in full.
As for future moves, they’re already in progress and will continue to happen because the almighty dollar dictates that.
My wife is very uncomfortable with the politics of our state - yet my work is here, the qualify of life and cost is excellent, and here we are 16 years later.
In the end, you’ll be where you need to be - is my opinion.
A college student is not yet embedded so they have more flexibility but career oriented people trying to earn a living don’t have that level of flexibility.
You are welcome to any opinion you want. As someone that has family members that went to both schools, I think I know what I am talking about. UChicago has a very demanding and fairly rigid core curriculum that everyone has to take, is very writing intensive the first year and a half, and is just a different experience for most students than they will find at other schools. Both of my kids would be considered legacies at UChicago, but neither will be applying because they are not interested in this kind of experience. It is not for everyone.
MIT is an engineering school whose quantitative focus is embedded in every aspect of the academic experience. It is also very competitive between the students. While both schools share exalted spots in the USNWR rankings, they are different schools from most others and from each other.
MIT has a core too- it’s just not called a core. The GIR (General Institute Requirements) from the MIT website:
General Institute Requirements (GIRs) are MIT’s core curriculum and foundation for the rest of your education.
William Barton Rogers, MIT’s founding president, once wrote that “the abstract studies…of the philosopher are often the most beneficent sources of practical discovery and improvement.” To achieve this diverse education, General Institute Requirements are completed by everyone at MIT no matter their area of study.
They include the:
Science core: six foundational courses in mathematics, physics, biology, and chemistry
HASS requirement: a minimum of eight subjects in the humanities, arts, and social sciences, including three to four in a concentration of your choice
Communication requirement: four communication-intensive courses, including at least two relevant to your major, to develop effective writing and speaking skills
Laboratory requirement: a minimum number of credits of practical, project-based work to stimulate your resourcefulness, planning skills, and analysis of observations
REST requirement: two subjects of Restricted Electives in Science and Technology to give you the opportunity to proceed further in areas already studied, or to explore other areas of potential interest outside your major
Physical education requirement: a minimum of four physical education courses, plus passing a 100-yard swim test, because your mind is in your body and we want both to be as capable as possible
I never said that U Chicago is for everyone; neither is MIT. But the notion that the schools are so different that a person couldn’t be interested in both- I don’t buy that. My kid was not an anomaly. If someone is interested in math (not engineering) both places could be a great fit.
My kid did NOT find MIT “very competitive between the students” so again- due respect- OP needs to explore and not take every single comment on this thread as the truth. Lots of subjective opining going on.
And yes- MIT has a core which a quick google search yields.
TSBNA- The average person doesn’t need an abortion because 50% of the population is male, and over 50% of the female population is not fertile (either too young or too old.)
But nationally, aprox. 24% of women have had an abortion by the time they reach menopause. That’s one in four. So it’s ludicrous to claim that the 'average person" doesn’t need to think about having an abortion. Men don’t need to think about it. 6 year old or 65 year old females don’t need to think about it. But 1/4 women of childbearing age not only think about it- they access what was once a safe and legal procedure, resulting from a private discussion with their medical provider.
If it were your daughter, sister, or best friend with an ectopic pregnancy which could kill her- you’d be grateful that she lived in a state where she could access life-saving medical treatment without political intervention. 24% is a big number.
My exact statement was “these two schools should probably not be on the same ‘Top 5’ list”. I didn’t say a person couldn’t be interested in both.
People can choose any Top 5 they want for whatever reason they want. Maybe someone visits both The Citadel and Cal-Berkley and decides those are their Top 2 choices. Their life, their choice. The OP asked a question, and I answered it accurately.
The average college student is a 20 year old sexually active woman, so I would say that accessibility to abortion services is an important factor to consider in college selection.
Ok. Maybe my argument sounds insensitive. But your statistic, while reported, is an estimate by an organization not a fact and it’s by age 45 and most finish college by 22.
My point is not to get into debate about state politics.
And again I said the OP - it’s their right as a consumer to spend their time and money to go to school where they want. My wife and daughter are extremely liberal - I think my body and my choice - are words I’ve heard more than any. She goes to school in SC and if they don’t have strict policies yet they will soon.
My point was simply to say if you find a school you love, you may pass up a wonderful opportunity at a place that might be a terrific opportunity. The govt may be ‘bad’ for lack of a better word but the people you’d associate with may be great. It’s why I brought up Colorado. Relatively liberal yet had bad apples…ie the baker who would not bake for the same sex couple.
All I’m trying to say. Apologies for creating controversy. Maybe as a dad I miss this but we did not pick a school based on needing those type of services.
But again we are all consumers and the OP CAN spend her money where she wants.