Please help Undecided STEM (and Undecided about STEM) Girl’s college list

[chrisntine]

@Sweetgum

The Southeast is not monolithic and there are some super LGBTQ friendly schools here. We live in NC and my D22 is LGBTQ . She has taken California off her list — been there didn’t really like it — but she is definitely interested in several schools in the Southeast and will likely stay in this region. She is interested in Creative Writing so her schools might not be relevant but she is interested in Warren Wilson, Hollins, and we are going to go look at Agnes Scott in November. It is super LGBTQ friendly and super diverse (only about 35% white). Agnes Scott is also good in both STEm and Creative Writing.

I’m always glad to hear there are many schools that are welcoming to all throughout all parts of our country. I’d heard good things about Agnes Scott too – hope it’s a good fit for your D!

[chrisntine]

@relaxmon

Returning to the actual question. My d is very similar to yours, including uncertainty about whether to have engineering schools on the list, no desire for super intense super competitive schools, no frat domination, inclusive and diverse environment, and we also aren’t considering any schools in red states for all the reasons you say. We are east coast however and her specific interest is astronomy. Considering Tufts, Amherst, Wesleyan, UPenn, UCLA, Berkeley, UColorado at Boulder, U Michigan, possibly MIT, Yale/Harvard as the usual moonshots, Cornell, Haverford.

Yes she does sound similar to my D, including the Astronomy interest, which I think will stay on her list of potential majors too. I see we have some overlaps already and we will check out the others on your list. Thank you!

[chrisntine]

@tsbna44

Cross Registration | Course Registration | Registrar | Offices | WPI

I’ll let others answer on the ease - but likely not very - if they’re not adjacent as these are college kids.

Thank you – I think you’re right, if they’re not very close, it’s much more challenging getting at least my teen to get themselves over to another campus. I suppose it depends on the class and how difficult it is to get there. That’s the beauty of the Claremont Colleges – they are so close to each other, it feels like the same campus (with very disjointed architecture!).

[chrisntine]

@theloniusmonk

@chrisntine Given yours and her really strong preference to stay in-state, I’d drop a few OOS reach/match colleges, CMU, Brown, Tufts, BU for starters. However four of your five most enthusiastic colleges are all out of state, are you saying that you’d prefer Case to Stanford if you got into both assuming similar costs? Stanford is the college checks all the boxes your kid wants, but it’s the toughest to get into, even over Yale, because you’re in CA. Even devotees of other colleges on this thread are not going to say their college has a better Aerospace Engr and Computer Science and Sociology than Stanford. UCLA and Berkeley are also strong across the board but they’re bigger than your D wants. If your kid is starry eyed at MIT, maybe that’s her dream college, so I’d apply there EA or Stanford SCEA, those along with the UCs/SLO and a couple of CSUs for in-state. Then add a few OOS in states where your D is comfortable attending. I didn’t attend any college in CA so don’t really have any rooting interest, though I have a soft spot for bay area colleges, where I live.

Great points, thank you. She didn’t want to apply REA to Stanford because she wanted to apply EA to MIT, Chicago and Case Western. I know it sounds odd, but Stanford is in a lower category than Case Western, due to her perception that the environment is too competitive and stressful. (Of course now I don’t know if Case Western will be on the list at all due to Ohio’s hostile environment).

UC’s would’ve been in the top category except it would be very difficult for her to explore and change in/out of majors, especially between STEM/non-STEM programs. Plus lack of housing and sheer size for most of them. Cal also was lower because of the perceived hyper-competitive nature of the students.

So she’s mainly applying EA to dream school(s), plus UC’s/SLO and a few CSU’s. She has more out of state schools than planned because the UC’s/SLO admissions are so unpredictable, especially if she ends up applying to a very competitive major.

Am trying to get her to cut down her reaches and agree on suggesting she cut CMU, Brown and BU. I know Tufts is also a reach but thought it might be a better fit than those 3?

Thanks for your help!

[eyemgh]

@chrisntine

Yes, that is my big concern about any of the technical schools, including Cal Poly. Which is why it’s so helpful hearing others’ experiences/knowledge about these schools since it’s helping us figure out which are not so STEM-only and could still be a good fit for her.

For perspective, Cal Poly has 6 colleges (agriculture, architecture, business, engineering, liberal arts and science/math), 49 departments and 66 majors. The College of Engineering (CENG) is the largest college by enrollment, but makes up only 25% of the whole student body. If you were to combine the students in the College of Science and Mathematics, technically almost all Liberal Arts majors, with the students actually in the College of Liberal Arts, there would be more students than in the CENG. No one thinks of Poly as a “Liberal Arts” school, but it’s just as much that as it is an Engineering School.

@chrisntine

That totally makes sense. Unless the school is more hands on like SLO, I imagine most students won’t really know what their planned careers (any career) really look like while they’re still in preliminary courses.

Even at a school like Cal Poly, where they are in major, they don’t really know what it will be like on the job. My son was about a year ahead of his peers and he didn’t have a good grip about “real engineering,” beyond doing tech work like CAD, until his 4th round as an intern (he was very lucky having had an internship during 1st year and every summer thereafter).

@aquapt

With UCLA, my younger daughter made the mistake of choosing an engineering major as her first choice and an L&S major as a second choice. The app lets you do this, but don’t be fooled - you won’t really be considered for an alternate major in a different college.

The same holds for Cal Poly. Every major is impacted. Almost no one gets their second choice because their alternates are filled with applicants that marked them as their primary choice.

@chrisntine

Thank you – I think you’re right, if they’re not very close, it’s much more challenging getting at least my teen to get themselves over to another campus.

Proximity is only half the battle. As I mentioned, WPI has a very weird, but innovative schedule. Terms are only 7 weeks. Students take 3 classes, 2 technical and one non-technical, and then get a week off between terms. Their terms don’t align with any other school in the nation that I know of, let alone the Central Mass Consortium schools.

Updated-Spring-2021-academic-calendar.xls-Compatibility-Mode.pdf

[relaxmon]

I should also mention re aeronautical engineering and similar, if her political views are as progressive as my d’s one important data point that is stopping my d is that apparently almost all career paths with that major run through the military or military contractors.

[eyemgh]

There are certainly exceptions like SpaceX, NASA, RocketLab, commercial aircraft and satellites, but there are indeed many (maybe most?) jobs at military contractors. My son had a very good experience at one, but after that decided there was no way he wanted to take that career route.

[Pathnottaken]

We were told it is possible, but takes a lot of planning and possibly being around when the rest of the campus is on a break. WPI does quarters, not semesters. 3 classes over 8 weeks. It is great for their project based learning curriculum, but is tough to line up with the semesters in the consortium schools. There is transportation around the city to get to the other campuses, but again…planning. Holy Cross is way up on a hill around town…so no one is doing that walking in February.

The WPI curriculum is so purposeful and well planned. There are great humanities courses that do not require going to the other campuses in the area. They do have minors in them as well. It is also one of the happiest campuses we visited and we went a couple times.

They do offer generous merit to some - females tend to get more than males.

[eyemgh]

@Pathnottaken

WPI does quarters, not semesters. 3 classes over 8 weeks.

They aren’t even quarters. Quarters are 10 weeks. Also, the 8 week term includes the one week off between terms. That’s why it is so difficult to align with. WPI is WAY out of phase with the rest, but none of them are on the same schedule.

@Pathnottaken

It is also one of the happiest campuses we visited and we went a couple times.

This was deeply palpable to us on our visit too, and one of the reasons, along with the innovative curriculum it was in the running for our son right up until the deadline.

A couple others also stood out in this regard, where students just seemed to all be beaming, Tufts and Cal Poly.

[chrisntine]

@theloniusmonk

Stanford is the college checks all the boxes your kid wants, but it’s the toughest to get into, even over Yale, because you’re in CA. Even devotees of other colleges on this thread are not going to say their college has a better Aerospace Engr and Computer Science and Sociology than Stanford.

Your post was topic of dinner convo tonight. D said her friend’s sister at Stanford says it’s actually pretty collaborative, although I don’t know her major and actually D’s friend is a hyper competitive person so their family’s definition of collaborative might not sync with D’s. Campus tours still aren’t open and virtual tours have been booked whenever she checked so it’s hard to get a feel for the school. We could try to get a personal tour from friend’s sister if she has time.

Honestly, she hadn’t spent much time researching Stanford because as you said it’s the most extremely unlikely of all her super reach schools. But MIT and Chicago are super reaches too, so she will investigate more and decide if she wants to trade the MIT and Chicago EA’s for Stanford REA.

We don’t really know if REA/EA applications really make a difference for these schools. My guess is for Stanford REA percentages are higher perhaps because of athletes? I don’t know if a Chicago legacy makes a difference and, if so, if EA would help?

[chrisntine]

@eyemgh

If aerospace has to be an option, there are only 53 ABET accredited AE programs in the nation. Fortunately, 9 of them are in CA, all CA publics, except USC.

If she wants to work in the industry, she does not have to be an AE. There are MANY types of engineers, physicists and computer scientists that work in the aerospace industry, in both the public and private sector.

@relaxmon

I should also mention re aeronautical engineering and similar, if her political views are as progressive as my d’s one important data point that is stopping my d is that apparently almost all career paths with that major run through the military or military contractors.

@eyemgh

There are certainly exceptions like SpaceX, NASA, RocketLab, commercial aircraft and satellites, but there are indeed many (maybe most?) jobs at military contractors. My son had a very good experience at one, but after that decided there was no way he wanted to take that career route.

All good points thank you both. Hadn’t thought of military but makes sense and might not be where she wants to work. I think my thought went immediately to NASA and commercial aircraft.

[chrisntine]

@twoinanddone

I would not suggest a tech school for someone who wants to major (or switch to) a non-STEM major. There are some really fun classes to take in music or art, but just not enough of them to craft a major. If she does stick to engineering, there usually are only a few true electives to fit into your schedule anyway; I think my daughter had about 15 credits of non-engineering courses to take, and that was out of 131 total credits (she came in with no AP or DE, so others may have had more room for electives).

I think bigger schools will fit the OP’s daughter better for all the things she wants. Maybe UMass with its consortium so the student can pick which characteristics she likes from each school?

I also hadn’t anticipated tech schools to be good options for someone who might want to switch out of STEM, but it seems some schools discussed here are more amenable to those students. So we’re now looking at Cal Poly SLO and WPI, etc as possible tech schools with strong liberal arts components. Hadn’t considered UMass so will check it out too, thank you!

[chrisntine]

@twoinanddone

IMO, the tech schools like WPI are going to have more students who are not political, not activists. LGBT+ students will be there, but maybe not as loud a group. At my daughter’s school there weren’t the liberal journalism majors (communications majors had to write the online articles), no poli sci majors, etc. Plenty of racial diversity, international students, economic diversity, and kids from around the county, but no one would confuse it as “Reed with engineering” or “UF, just smaller”. Mostly engineers/STEM majors, some cool and some nerdy, some sporty and some taking the trolley to class because walking is too much exercise. No one fighting the administration at every turn, no one inviting controversial speakers to campus.

I think that’s ok as my D cares deeply about social justice issues but is not necessarily a SJW. Just wants a more progressive, accepting student body so she feels welcome. The tech students you describe sound a lot like the kids my D likes to hang out with.

[chrisntine]

Ah ok glad to hear! At first I was excited to see Honors dorms, but then realized D would prefer to be with the rest of the students in housing. Priority registration or something like that of course would be nice (I think some UC’s do that). Honors colleges are such a foreign concept to me so will check out that site. Thanks!

[chrisntine]

@NJEngineerDad

I don’t know that there would be much reason for her to stay in her college town to work/study over summers. She can find work anywhere in the US, and ASU has a very good online offering is she wants to take classes over the summer.

I guess her desire to stay in town over the summer would depend partly on the town, so yes maybe that wouldn’t happened if she was in Arizona. Thanks.

[chrisntine]

@RBMart1

I think WPI may be a good fit by itself because it is as much of a STEAM school as it is a STEM school. Just taking input from your original post. Unless I missed something you said you were looking for a school in an area that is Progressive and Liberal which WPI and I didn’t see anything about political activism. The majority of the students are coming from the Northeast which is one of the more liberal areas of the country. Based on the academics and location she could find some like-minded nerds. However if she decides she wants to study dance or ancient culture it probably wouldn’t fit the bill.

Also, you get the support of a small to mid-size school with relatively small classes sizes. WPI seems to emphasize project-based learning which supports more of a collaborative environment. It is also a top technical school including offering Aerospace Engineering.

Worcester itself has a ton of colleges and a lot of students per square mile. The town itself may be a little bit rough around the edges but is experiencing a bit of a birth.

@Pathnottaken

The WPI curriculum is so purposeful and well planned. There are great humanities courses that do not require going to the other campuses in the area. They do have minors in them as well. It is also one of the happiest campuses we visited and we went a couple times.

They do offer generous merit to some - females tend to get more than males.

@eyemgh

@Pathnottaken

It is also one of the happiest campuses we visited and we went a couple times.

This was deeply palpable to us on our visit too, and one of the reasons, along with the innovative curriculum it was in the running for our son right up until the deadline.

A couple others also stood out in this regard, where students just seemed to all be beaming, Tufts and Cal Poly.

Okay, WPI is sounding more and more appealing and like it could be a good fit. If she can figure out the consortium schedule that would be bonus, but sounds unnecessary (definitely no walking a snowy hill by my California girl). Will put it high on her research list. She can start by figuring out how to pronounce Worcester. Thank you all!

[chrisntine]

@CMA22

Check out the iSchool (informatics) at University of Washington. She could design that major to be more STEMMY or less STEMMY, depending on what direction she chooses.

Also, if she applies and gets into UW’s Interdisciplinary Honors program, she can get more of the smaller school exploratory liberal arts experience despite UW’s size.

Ooh so interesting, will let her know! And that would be great to have the Honors program help shrink the feel of that very large school. Thank you!

[chrisntine]

@aquapt

My D really lucked out with the Scripps merit - they gave more awards than normal that year, for reasons too complicated and off-topic to venture into on this thread. I think that in practical terms, the experience of single-gender housing at a mid-sized co-ed university comes close to what Scripps students experience; it does go a bit beyond that in the sense of the identity and ethos of the school as its own entity - I just haven’t felt as if it crosses the line to being exclusionary in the way that your daughter fears.

That is good to hear and may help D reconsider. Sounds like best of both worlds.

@aquapt

Pomona has a very good CogSci department that’s worth a look. It’s a joint department with Linguistics, so it has very rich offerings in that arena if that’s of any interest; but a CS or neuroscience emphasis is also an option.

She would definitely be interested in this and will need to check if she could do that major if she was enrolled at Scripps. Thank you!

[chrisntine]

@aquapt

The other thing with UCSD is that there’s no harm in applying to engineering, because (unlike UCLA, for example) you can still be admitted to the university even if you don’t get a spot in your desired engineering major, and then you can decide whether to enter undeclared and go into a non-impacted major like CogSci (CogSci always seems to be on the verge of becoming impacted, but so far they’ve just grown the department and hired more faculty) or attempt the uphill battle of getting into an impacted major. Residential College wise, the most popular one is Muir because the requirements are the least demanding. Your d might like Sixth because of the arts+tech theme, although some say it all sounds cooler than it truly turns out to be. Many aspiring engineers request Warren because it’s most compatible with those curricula and physically close to the engineering school as well. My daughters both liked Marshall and would have been in that College if they’d attended.

With UCLA, my younger daughter made the mistake of choosing an engineering major as her first choice and an L&S major as a second choice. The app lets you do this, but don’t be fooled - you won’t really be considered for an alternate major in a different college. This resulted in my d’s not getting in at all, although I think it’s very unlikely she would’ve attended there anyway so no great loss in her case, but a word to the wise.

Thats great to hear the CogSci dept is allowed to grow. I think D likes Revelle so far but Undecided Girl would probably like some of the other colleges too! The whole UC admissions system is so confusing and I’m not sure the single application doesn’t add to the confusion. Sorry your D had to learn the ropes the hard way. Thanks for the tips to help us avoid the same. I’ve also been reading the UC forums for guidance from gumbysmom and ucbalumnus. Grateful to get so much help from everyone!

[chrisntine]

@ucbalumnus

But note that the heavy core / general education requirements at both MIT and Chicago may actually limit the amount of schedule space available for academic exploration in the first year or two, although a required general education course could unexpectedly lead to interest in a subject not previously known to be of interest.

I think the Core requirements will definitely help her stretch and try new things, and she feels there’s enough space to allow for exploration. I actually think an open curriculum like Brown’s might be too much freedom for her and she’d never end the exploration. Of course, it sounded great to her.

@aquapt

Good luck! It’s very tricky figuring out how to keep all the right options open long enough to have the experiences necessary to make decisions!

I think that’s the thing – helping her find the right place that gives her enough opportunities to experiment and find her place, but with enough structure so there’s an end in sight and help making those decisions.
Thank you both!