Please help us how to handle this problem

Parents Forum
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<p>That is the problem that sometimes occurs with student-run organizations--not all students are mature enough to see through the game playing. (or care to) Unlike some schools that take student government seriously, our elections for student council and class officers run along the same lines as Homecoming Queen and Court. They also get what they pay for---nothing. They elect kids that wanted to be seen as leaders, but have no intention on giving any time or effort. I cannot name one project that either organization has done in the years my kids have been at that high school.</p>

<p>In my son's favorite EC, Debate, for two years in a row the student elected as President has quit the team before October. Once the college applications go in, the EC was dumped. What we've found, however, is that sometimes other positions have more "meat" to them. He was just as happy to Varsity LD Captain for two years. His duties included working with novices, tournament duties like running extemp draw or working tab room, helping the Forensics coach, etc....the President's main duty was to call meetings. (of which there have been perhaps two at best). So really he had more of a leadership role in the organization.</p>

<p>There may be other positions within that club, or in others that your child is a member, that have non-elected positions that require just as much leaderhsip and commitment. Web master, fundraising, membership recruiting, etc...often have more responsibility.</p>

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<p>City girls mom</p>

<p>Her activity is debate. And debate and height are not realted at all. I will call and stand for it as it is nothing but bullying. Thanks a lot all of you.</p>

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<p>I'll second mominsearch. First, parents need to just plain keep out of things like this. As was mentioned above, most of the time they have no clue about what their own child's "contribution" to the situation is. Is this child disliked for a reason other than money? Is she a team player? Does she hog the glory as the most skilled? I've seen a lot of mean girls operate and a lot of rich ones, usually it's not just money.</p>

<p>But even if it is, this is a problem between kids and it needs to be worked out by the kids. The daughter has every right to speak to the advisor or principal, but the parent should not be part of the discussion.</p>

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<p>If my daughter was in this position, I would advise her to speak confidentially with her guidance counselor or a trusted teacher about the problem. I'm sure the counselor/teacher knows the dynamics of the group, even if it is a student sponsored group. Sometimes it's better to let the kids fight their own battles, and she might feel more empowered by using advice from a counselor than a parent. </p>

<p>Also, I never heard of a student club that had no faculty advisor. Maybe that would be the person you daughter should speak to.</p>

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<p>zagat - thanks!</p>

<p>I'll share something that I have always found to be useful based on my own personal history. This is a true story.</p>

<p>When my oldest son was in kindergarten he was friends with a little girl. At lunch one day she decided to keep a piece of tin foil from her sandwich (why? - who knows). The kids come back from lunch and laid down to take their naps. The little girl puts the piece of tin foil into her ear. They call her parents and they had to take her to the ER to remove the foil.</p>

<p>She gets home from the ER and the mother wants to know why she put the foil in her ear. She tells her mother that my son told her to do it.</p>

<p>She proceeds to call me and tell me VERY STERNLY that I need to tell my son that he should not tell anyone to put something in their ear. I apologized and said that I was shocked that my son would advise anyone to do this. </p>

<p>After I get off the phone I asked my son what happened and he said the little girl put the foil in her ear because another little boy was trying to take it from her (so much for safekeeping).</p>

<p>I call her mother back and tell her this. She calls me back and told me that what my son said was true and that she was so sorry. Her daughter was afraid she was in trouble so she made up the story.</p>

<p>Long story short, I have ALWAYS tried to make sure that I get both sides of the story before I ever speak. LOL</p>

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<p>I am in full agreement with Mominsearch. It is better to pick your battles with the schools. When something regarding my child's safety, or some blatant wrongdoing can be isolated and proven, I jump right in. I will go to the headmaster, trustees, police, child services, and have done so on occaisions when the situation was out of hand. If there is a lot of mean spiritedness going on in the club, a conference with the faculty sponsor might well be in order. But with kids I have found you really need to get all of the information before you start a battle. For instance, there may have been some light hearted fun occurring with the debates, where two teams decided to do match ups by height. I am just using this as an example. If you go charging in there when this was something that the club as a whole did for fun, well, you can end up looking foolish. </p>

<p>A couple of years ago, my son worked at a summer camp and as a grand finale, the counselors competed in a swim match, jumping in fully dressed, shoes and all. It was not anticipated, so some of the counselors were really poorly dressed for the event, and a few declined to participate, one in particular who was planning to go somewhere after camp and had her fixed a certain way, make up and some non water friendly attire. Some remarks were made to her because she declined, and her campers were most disappointed Her enraged parents came charging onto the scene saying that the event was a horrible idea that caused loss of face among campers for their daughter and some snide remarks among the counselors for the non participation. All of which were true, to some degree. But I would have just let it go. I don't think it raised the counselors stature one whit to have the brougha taken to a new level, and though it may be a reason to be teased later, I doubt that she was ging to become a pariah. If she had responded in a light hearted way, it would not have become an issue. At the end of the season, she was not invited to a party at someone's summer home; the reason being that they might want to push people into the pool fully dressed and they did not want to have to answer to her parents. I ran into the girl at the store, and not knowing the story, asked why she wasn't at the party, and she started bawling. Well, what to say, there isn't much even concerned, proactive parents can do about private invites. The mother was livid, called me and much of her commentary was about her well to do the party giver's parents were and some of the other kids as well. However, that was not a decidiing issue as the socioeconomics were diverse with those kids. They just did not want someone whose mama came jumping into the scene. And so it can be. </p>

<p>Since none of us can judge what is exactly happening in this situation, I would, again advise getting some ideas from the faculty advisor. It could well be that the club is going on its own steam in the wrong direction, and needs some adult guidance back to the original principles. If you want to make this a campaign for yourself, if it is truly an important enough issue, I certainly endorse your involvement. But if it is just another one of those darned kid things, I would let it go. And as far as elected leadership positions go, that is a no win can of worms. You can vote for whomever you want, and if the kids in a group want to vote for the rich kids, tall kids, whatever kids, that is their privilige. I do wonder though if those are the guiding principles of so many kids in such of club whether your D wants to even be around such kids, especially if they are being unfair to her. If they cross the line where they are cruel, I would say parental involvement, school involvement is in order. Unfair, well, it depends, somethings are allowed to be unfair.</p>

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<p>I don't have enough information to go on but I am aligned with what most posters wrote, in particular Northstarmom. I do not think anyone meant for your D to "suck it up". I think talking to the faculty advisor is an option. I don't entirely even get the situation. But also if the other kids are acting in this fashion, perhaps their values and how they run the club is not what she wants to be a part of. Depending on the activity, maybe there are other avenues for her to continue to participate and compete outside this club? She obviously is skilled at whatever this activity is. </p>

<p>That leads me to the next thing.....while I certainly feel for your daughter and the unfairness that seems to surround the situation in her eyes, I think one lesson to be learned is that if she is truly a go getter and really wants to do an activity, then she will MAKE it happen for herself. She won't stop at "no". She will create a new situation. She won't settle with closed doors. The saying that "if life hands you lemons, make lemonade"....can really be true sometimes.</p>

<p>I can think of in my older child's junior year, she was not able to be on the varsity soccer team (a lifelong sport) due to nothing she did or did not do but clearly a circumstance beyond her control. While disappointed, she could not fathom not doing soccer in the fall so she coached a fifth/sixth grade girls team and loved it. The next year she was the starting varsity goalie (she never gave up) and went to the state semi finals. She even wrote a college essay that dealt with how she handled this situation (which I have not described in detail). </p>

<p>Others on here know about my second child and a situation she faced this past fall at her school with regard to initiating/creating/directing a student run musical production which she had done the prior year to very positive feedback and success and which had never been done in our school before. When she went to put on another production this year, the music faculty wanted to stop her in her tracks at the eleventh hour. Their objections stemmed from jealousy basically....in so many words from themselves and from other adults in the school....about the success of her show the prior year and the lack of enthusiasm the same cast members (core kids in this activity in our school) had for some of the teacher's run endeavors in comparison. My child advocated to make this happen and indeed, worked it out and again, the show was a rousing success this year, some say the best thing they've ever seen at our school. The money raised both years went to charities, quite a bit in fact. Taking "no" just was not in her vocabulary (of course this runs amok in the parent/child relationship but I digress, lol). This entire project was one in the first place that was solely based on initiative and creation, not an ongoing club or anything like that. It was someone with an idea, a sense of leadership, and a drive to make it happen and it did. </p>

<p>I reminisce about this experience because it reminds me of your D's situation....where she really could find a way to make a new situation for herself to do whatever this activity is, in some fashion. This came to my mnd over the weekend, in fact, because we attended a reception for something my daughter got selected for at the college she has chosen to attend next fall, NYU/Tisch. It is called University Scholars (they chose 15 kids out of 1000 accepted to the entire college of Tisch) and they explained how they chose these particular kids and we did not even know such a program/honor existed until she got the letter of her selection (in the hospital no less!). But they said it went beyond grades and test scores (and this makes sense to me cause while hers are good ones, they would not stand out to this degree to be selected, I do not think) but they were looking for kids who were leaders, kids who had drive and took initiative, kids who had made a difference in their community. Kids who they feel will be the future leaders in the arts. And we sat and listened and realized that not only did these two musical cabarets she created and directed fit that bill (the last one was a struggle to even make happen with faculty shutting the door in her face) and another event she created and orchestrated last year on peace and activism in our community, also involving the arts, really dovetailed into the kind of person they were looking for. These were not ongoing activities, but rather ones she initiated. She was not elected president, she just made up the activity and ran it. Then we realized that so many of her essays on the application also spoke to all this, ironically not knowing there was even such a thing to be selected to, and her recs spoke of these things and characteristics as well. She was never elected to anything by the way. That is my point. I won't get into here the wonderful perks and experiences both in the US and abroad (fully paid for by the university) that will come with her participation as a University Scholar. But the point is, that when doors shut in your face, if you are a go getter, you make things happen. Her whole life has been like this. One school did not want to let her enter kindergarten early due to policy and we moved to another school that looked at her as an individual and had her enter K early which was the appropriate placement for her. Now she is even graduating high school one year early on top of the early entrance, thus is graduating two years earlier than if we had just let one person shut that door in our D's face without looking at her as an individual. </p>

<p>So, without knowing more about the specifics of your D's situation and I do feel for her, don't get me wrong, I think the next thing is to brainstorm ways for her to go after what she enjoys doing in this particular activity (have no clue the nature of what it entails) and make things happen. If these girls shut her out, find a different outlet. If one is passionate about something, NOTHING can hold them down. I have seen that with my own kids. One of my kids was not even elected as a senator to the student senate but she attended anyway and she ended up taking the initiative to create a committee of two people and spearheaded an issue (twice) in high school that turned into creating a policy for the school that the school board adopted. She had many obstacles that stood in her way, not just not being elected but also the principal and so forth but in the end, she led the way, never gave up and made a big difference in her school that is permanent and will benefit many kids to come and in fact, her recs spoke to having never seen a kid accomplish something like that at the school before. So, elected or not, she LED. She was a leader. She took initiative. That is what I am talking about. And that is what I am recommending for your D in this situation. That is not the same as "taking it". It is doing something cause you are passionate about it and nothing can stand in your way. Not these girls, not nothing. I don't know enough about the situation to give specific suggestions but I hope these examples speak to this point.</p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>When you compete against schools and trophies are involved, I do not think sending team based on height is an appropriate idea. </p>

<p>Anyway I spoke to my daughter. She has thought about it since last night. She will speak to the faculty member who is assocaited with debate team. I think this is her best options. Afterall other kids may be affcted by this which I am not aware.</p>

<p>Thank you all for your wonderful input. I guess I was wrong in trying to hide this under the carpet. Thanks a lot all of you.</p>

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<p>atalk - I don't think that Jamimom was in anyway saying that sending the team based on height was right, but I know that at our school kids often do do that. You have to realize that when you post something w/o us knowing all the facts we are going to give our opinion. I must say that I have never heard of a debate team being student run (specially in a competative way). Since there is someone associated with the debate team then it is okay for your daughter to speak to them though. Maybe the other kids don't take the club as seriously as your daughter & you do. </p>

<p>soozievt - congratulations to you and your daughter!</p>

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<p>Student run, but representing the school. If it was just kdis sitting around in an Anime club, thats one thing, but something that is used to REPRESENT the school is something quite different. Competing against other schools, going for awards in something this girl really loves and does really well in. Why not be angry?</p>

<p>And money is involved. School money. And perhaps other kinds. So it is different.</p>

<p>There are ways to make changes. This girls doesn't have to wreck her life. No. But there are ways.</p>

<p>Bullying isn't just physical. If these kids can buy their way into things, programs that represent a school, it is so wrong. Bullies are bullies, Girls just use different methods.</p>

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<p>"Why not be angry?"</p>

<p>For many reasons, but mostly because anger gets you nowhere. Soozievt makes many good points on what the more constructive avenues would be.</p>

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<p>I am also puzzled how a debate team can function without an adult sponsor. Our team travels, and the tournaments require a coach to be present--not to mention someone needs to drive and rent the hotel rooms etc...As representatives of the school, you would think there is an adult somewhere who is accountable?</p>

<p>Why not be angry? Sure go ahead and be angry, but then move on to something more constructive. I reiterate there are other posts within an organization that carry equal if not more responsibility if she chooses to continue. Or, find a new activity away from these girls. </p>

<p>Another thought--does the club have by-laws or a constitution? All of our school clubs do, and they include instructions for elections, and consequences for breach of conduct.</p>

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<p>Citygirlsmom, I don't have enough information here to go on and would have to hear the perspective of each of the involved parties. However, I agree that if some kids are bullying others, then it is time to advocate and speak to the faculty sponsor so that a meeting can take place to work things out. If it is just matter of who gets elected a chair or something like that, it is not always done fairly. But if it is a matter of participating and representing the school in a competition, certainly a meeting could take place if something unfair or bullying has happened. I just do not know enough to understand this particular situation. I do think that whether or not elected, a kid can go after what she wants and in this case, continue to win competitions and so forth, even if not "captain" (or on the board) so to speak. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>ATalk, are you just talking here of the dilemma over being elected to the board of this activity or about participating at all in the debate team and competing for the school? If it is the former, I don't think you can do much but talk to your daughter about ways in which someone can lead without being elected or chosen to do so. For the latter, if she has truly been a top winner representing your school and other girls are trying to make it so she cannot compete for the school (this does not make sense but might be what you are talking about?), then I would have your daughter sit down with the faculty advisor to discuss that concern.
Susan</p>

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<p>Well let her speak out. My son in the prep school faced a similar situation where only 8 kids were selected to debate. The kid who was in charge selected other kids to represent the school based on date of birth. When my son asked the kid in charge, he told my son that he can make any decision any way he wants to make. My son spoke against this practice to the adult in charge of debate team. This got sorted out but it was painful for him. </p>

<p>Sometime in prep school money talks and one need to stand against it. Your daughter needs to speak to her counselor about it. Conselor may not be aware about it. They are pretty good to sort this things out.</p>

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<p>PS, I went back to your original post and one thing I read between the lines here is that it is a situation where jealousy of a successful child exists and other catty things. Being elected to this board might never happen due to this. You can't change that. Being able to participate, however, is her right if she is on the team and earning her keep. I'd also have to question a bit, being a part of an activity where the dynamics between the members just are not enjoyable or team-like and she might want to evaluate that as well. I don't know if there are any other ways for her to do debate so that is an issue. But in many activities, jealousy abounds when there is a successful kid. The thing is, if it is a teacher led activity, building team sportsmanship needs to be key. Still life in high school is tough sometimes.
Susan</p>

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<p>citygirlsmom - Since we didn't know these facts at the beginning please don't be mad at us:) I still think you have to pick your battles though.</p>

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<p>I am not mad at you. ; ) </p>

<p>And anger has gotten alot of things changed in this world- its learning to channel that anger into effective action</p>

<p>I just think its wrong to pick a team based on height. Anyone think that is okay? Short people unite!!!</p>

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<p>How about debate team selection based on date of birth? Is this right too? :) I hope not.</p>

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<p>Did they really pick the team based on height? Too many issues going on here for me to even understand it all. At first I thought it was just about elected office. </p>

<p>If participation is based on height, rather than on skill/achievements at debate, it seems very strange and I cannot imagine a faculty advisor backing up that kind of selection. Need to know more.</p>

<p>Susan
PS...if it was on height, then how did OP's D win those awards if she was unable to participate? I must be dense or getting old and can't understand the entire situation here.</p>