<p>Chinaman wrote: "How about debate team selection based on date of birth? Is this right too? I hope not."</p>
<p>You have always made me smile, Chinaman. Ya know, this topic could turn into a great debate!</p>
<p>The OP stated that in a post; because her daughter is worried that the way things are looking she won't get picked to participate and picking kids to represent the school based on height seemed odd to say the least. </p>
<p>They picked the kids to go based on height. Interesting ehhhh....</p>
<p>Maybe we should all learn a lesson here - not to say anything until we get all the facts. This is soooo much more complicated than OP first posted on this subject. Since I'm so short I guess I shouldn't be allowed to "debate" this subject:)</p>
<p>soozivet:</p>
<p>If I understand the op correctly, the op is saying that she won some awards. Once she has those awards others were not able to compete, then they choose the selection to next even based on height to exclude her from competing. I hope this is what the op wants to say. But I could be wrong.</p>
<p>In my son case every time a kid compete they select a new kid in the prep school. Depending on the place some members needs to be dropped, as only few spots are available from each school to represent in each debate intercollegiate competition. Anyway when he won some awards in all the events he competed. Then to eliminate him from competition, some board members decided to elect the next team based on the kids age. My son got mad about it and spoke to his counselor about it. Such is life but one needs to be on gurads about it.</p>
<p>I just wanted to add that adults/institutions in charge frequently sanction selections being popularity contests by the kids. What comes to mind:</p>
<ul>
<li><p>In our elementary school, each class votes on their representative to the school spelling bee</p>
<ul>
<li> Boy Scouts order of the arrow - honorees are elected by the troop members</li>
</ul></li>
</ul>
<p>And with Boy Scouts, there is no limit on how many each member can vote for or on how many get honored; so for any individual not chosen, it is their own personal so-called failure, not just losing to someone else!</p>
<p>The OP stated that certain members are "bribing" other members to get elected to leadership positions- those in leadership positions choose those that get to participate. On top of that, they picked a team to participate based on height. The combination of these two factors, is worrying the daughter. One without the other might be tolerable, but te combination is pretty bad. If these kids are able to buy their elections to the board of the club, seeing that they got the positions through unethical means, can we imagine they will be fair? The fact that they are even trying to in itself really bad.</p>
<p>I understand the idea of rotating kids to give everyone an opportunity, but doing it this way is just wrong. Same as age, same as sex, same as weight. Same as color. And seeing how the new leadership is doing whatever it can to gain power, I don't see sudden fairness sprouting.</p>
<p>By student-managed do you mean that no adult is the advisor for these kids?? Is this club actually in the school?</p>
<p>I agree with citygirlsmom on the part about it being gross (and wrong!). I wonder what the parents would say if they knew what their kids were doing. Sex for love is one thing, but careless sex for favors to join a club is just stupid. What if these kids get an STD?</p>
<p>I have seen instances of seniority being used when there are not enough slots--some tournaments limit your entries. But our team uses length of time competing on the team, not birthdate. That would have screwed my sons up because they both skipped a year of school. </p>
<p>As for our district slots--again, limited by UIL to three, they use seniority AND record. In some cases a junior member who has compiled a better record will be placed ahead. Particularly if it is a senior with senioritis. </p>
<p>I have never heard of height being used to determine a debate team. I totally do not understand this situation. </p>
<p>Why aren't they trying to develop as many debaters as possible? It would be in the best interest of the team to retain as many as possible to ensure the team doesn't have holes after graduation.</p>
<p>It does sound like an adult sponsor needs to step in and provide some guidance.</p>
<p>OP,</p>
<p>This experience would make for a fine colleg application essay for her to write about integrity. I am very sorry to hear this has happened but not surprised. Be happy that your duaghter sees this for what it is----just plain wrong.</p>
<p>I'd have to say, it's hard to believe picking a team by height is the whole story. There is almost always an adult in charge of serious debate teams. Most schools take debate pretty seriously and really want to win. Kids who spend the time necessary to debate really want the best people on their team. Debate usually doesn't function like a cheerleader competition. So it all makes no sense to me.</p>
<p>If the team really operates this way, I can't believe that your daughter, who you describe as being seriously talented at debate, would want any part of it. There would be far superior opportunities for a serious competitor.</p>
<p>atalk, a suggestion, based on what I think I understand here, there is some sort of social dynamic in play between your daughter and a significant core group of the others, therefore, I think I would recommend that she first talk to these other students and try to achieve some understanding. Not in a negative or confrontational way, but rather approach them by saying something like this: "I'm good at this, I've won for the team and the school in the past; I wish to be able to continue to participate. I need your help as I'm trying to understand why this isn't going to happen - can you help explain the current method of selection..." etc. and try to get some sort of rapport and discussion going, followed by offering some ideas for change. Maybe your D can get some insight on the root of the problem and even recruit some advocates at the student/participant level to get it changed. </p>
<p>If it doesn't work (and I understand it very likely won't), at least then your D can approach the faculty advisor with the added condition that she reached out and tried to communicate and work with her peers first. </p>
<p>I do agree that it is not fair to select participants based on height, but in a twisted sense this actually helps your D, as this is so preposterous that it should be an easy policy to get changed - anyone can see that height is an inappropriate standard for selection of debate participants. Obviously, choosing participants by date of birth is even more preposterous - height is at least visibly verifiable, but how did they verify date of birth, check to see that the participants were really born when they claimed? Make all participants show their drivers licenses? Inspect the school's records? </p>
<p>Getting angry doesn't make a lot of sense however, it wastes valuable energy, takes up valuable mind space that can be used for more productive thinking/emoting, and assigns too much credibility to the miscreants who are causing the unfairness. I hope your D can solve this, however, if she cannot, then, the world is very, very big and there are lots and lots of things to do and be.</p>
<p>Atalk I am glad your D will discuss this situation with her advisor. I am familiar with the debate world having debated in high school and college and now assisting my D's high school team in a coaching capacity. In the debate world no one cares who the president, vp, etc. are of a school team. I think everyone gets that these offices along with other offices at high schools, can be popularity contests. At the speech and debate tournaments, the kids who are excelling receive recognition for all of their peers to see. The kids know who the players are, just as they do in sports, theater, etc. This can create jealousy among team mates but if handled with class sets a successful debater apart from the rest. As one poster (maybe soozievt said, your daughter can shine as a leader without a title. I would encourage her to move beyond this and I suspect it will resolve itself. If at the end of the year only so many can compete in NFL qualifiers, etc. and thus it matters beyond a title, it would be appropriate for the advisor to set objective criteria for selection (i.e. tournaments attended, NFL points, seniority, etc.). Good luck.</p>
<p>Thank you very much for providing your valuable input. I agreed with you and let my daughters raise the questions. She also got support from other people who were concerned by the sideshows. Anyway two weeks ago the debate club allowed my daughter to be an active member and thus she will be able to participate in debate, which she enjoys tremendously. As a person whose kid was there on a financial aid, I was concerned that money may be an issue but ultimately this was not so. The club selected kids based on merit. And I must apologies for even questioning the integrity of the people involved. I was simply wrong. Thank God</p>