Please let me know your thoughts on this list of LACs to apply to

College Search & Selection
81

Regarding the whole foreign language sub-discussion:

I think perhaps the college admission officers are more likely to view and consider a candidate’s application in context than to operate from a “checklist” standpoint. Not having studied a foreign language IN SCHOOL (since she has indeed learned one) will not necessarily be a do-or-die proposition. She can call an admissions officer to confirm this if she likes, but I would guess that a dramatic move like taking a year off to study in another country will not be necessary! Here is my support for this thought:

The college that my son considered that seems to care the most about specific high school courses is Wesleyan, because they always publish the statistics for the percentage of the new class that studied calculus, all of bio/chem/physics, and four years of a foreign language. (This is the whole reason that my son took physics senior year. And then did not apply to Wesleyan!) But even at Wesleyan, only 83% of students have studied a language for four years in high school, which means that 17% have not!

http://www.wesleyan.edu/admission/apply/classprofile.html

Admissions are holistic. Admissions officers read the applications. She can show she passed AP Japanese. She can mention her Saturday classes in it all her life.

82

Interesting discussion re foreign language. I don’t have any autoritative input here, but do note that there is NO FORMULA. A kid can check a few boxes to increase their odds/avoid being shut out here and there (e.g. test prep, if that’s your thing), but I’m overall pretty opposed to kids organizing their lives around perceived requirements for admission. Foreign languages were not my kid’s thing. I was a bit sad about that, but kid blew 'em off after meeting bare minimum requirements, and instead doubled down on other coursework that interested him, and we were all happy with his college options. Honestly, I think that given that your kid is an appealing candidate, it’s more important to focus (as I think you’re doing) on a well-curated list and a coherent presentation. So she doesn’t formally meet the language expectations? Just have her make sure the application makes clear that she has met those expectations in spirit.

83

@TheGreyKing - A couple of things to note with your Wesleyan example: 1) Wesleyan’s Common Data Set indicates a list of “recommended” HS course requirements; it has no “required” classes listed. So, it’s not clear to me that Wesleyan “care[s] the most about specific high school courses” as compared to other schools of its caliber; 2) of the 17% of Wesleyan students that have not studied a foreign language for four years, my guess is that the vast majority of them had studied one for three years and another significant portion for two. I would guess that the percentage of Wesleyan students that did not study a foreign language AT ALL would be quite low.

While I agree that there is no formula for admissions and that there is some amount of flexibility, at the end of the day there are five core subjects (English, History, Science, Math, and Foreign Languages) and colleges like to see that students have nor shirked a responsibility to explore them, preferably at the highest levels available to them.

I don’t think that @dla26’s D needs such a drastic move as a super-senior year abroad or a gap year, but taking a couple of college classes in Japanese literature would go a long way in strengthening her application.

Interestingly, there’s another thread about this very subject (I’m not saying that the two students’s situations are analogous, @dla26’s D has a stronger background in a foreign language than that of the OP in this thread, but both have neglected to take FL classes and have instead taken additional electives. There are a number of posters on that thread that share my concern:

http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/2091049-ive-only-taken-foreign-language-for-one-year-am-i-screwed-p1.html

Post #15 sums it up well, in my opinion, and mirrors my own thinking:

"Let me try to state it differently. Foreign language is a core subject area, not an elective. Having only one year of a FL will be a disadvantage at many schools, fatal at some. It is not ok to substitute electives for a core subject area. Some students only take 2 or 3 years of FL, but either those are advanced years of FL or they double up in another core area.

OP, you don’t say what year you are, but if you can rectify the situation, you should."

84

Not sure why everything was stricken in my last post (I had bracketed something within a quote to integrate the it into the context and make it grammatically correct, so that might have somehow crossed out everything that followed.)

I hope the last post was readable, but the bottom line is that there are others that share my concern about not meeting a FL requirement or recommendation, as reflected in this other post:

http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/2091049-ive-only-taken-foreign-language-for-one-year-am-i-screwed-p1.html

In particular, post 15 sums it up well and mirrors my own thinking:

"Let me try to state it differently. Foreign language is a core subject area, not an elective. Having only one year of a FL will be a disadvantage at many schools, fatal at some. It is not ok to substitute electives for a core subject area. Some students only take 2 or 3 years of FL, but either those are advanced years of FL or they double up in another core area.

OP, you don’t say what year you are, but if you can rectify the situation, you should."

I’m not saying that the two situations are analogous – @dla26’s D is proficient in another language and the OP of this other thread is not – but, at the end of the day, not taking FL classes may prove disadvantageous in admissions.

I’m not recommending anything as drastic as a super senior or gap year, but taking a couple of advanced language classes at the college level might help rectify what might be an otherwise problematic academic profile on a HS transcript.

If it were my kid, I’d be encouraging her to do anything in her power to change this.

(Oh, and my other point was that not having four years of a FL on a transcript is not the same as not having ANY. Of the 17% of Wesleyan students that lacked four years of FL study, I would venture a bet that most had three, a decent amount had two, and very few had none. (Also note that Wesleyan does not indicate any REQUIRED classes, just RECOMMENDED ones).

85

So my D wrote to Bowdoin, and I asked Oberlin about this question, and here were their responses:

Bowdoin: "We read all of our applications with context in all ways -especially regarding academics. The typical profile is largely just a general guideline. We believe it is important for incoming students to have studied a foreign language during high school. How that shakes out for each student can vary widely. Where students may depart from the typical profile we look to see what rigor they are taking in place of the standard core courses we typically expect to see in a student’s curriculum. Largely what is important to us is if you are engaged in meaningful, rigorous coursework that you find interesting. "

Oberlin: "For Oberlin College specifically, demonstrating a competency in a foreign language and displaying the ability to study a new language is equally important. In our review process we look for students to demonstrate proficiency equivalent to three years of the same foreign language.

Although your daughter has only completed 1 year of foreign language study in high school she has completed a level beyond three years of study. Within our holistic review this would be considered academically qualified. I would encourage your daughter to take the classes that will highlight her interests and talents."

All of that said, if there’s a place on the common app to address any anomalies in her application, I’ll encourage my D to mention that although she’s not enrolled in a FL class per se, she spends a decent amount of her time improving her Japanese skills. She read Harry Potter in Japanese, reads some manga, watches anime in the original Japanese, and of course speaks with her mother and grandparents from time to time.

86

A few thoughts (and sorry if I sound like I’m beating a dead horse and please excuse my candor, but to use an old expression “I calls 'em as I sees 'em.”)

  1. No school is going to discourage your D from submitting an application and all of the schools with provide some version of “we evaluate holistically.” Bear that in mind when reading any responses to her query. If your D were to ask if a school would consider her with a 3.0 GPA or a 25 on the ACT, she’d probably still get some version of “holistic evaluation” and not be discouraged from applying.

  2. Your D has some tippy-top schools on her list and she needs to make her application as compelling as possible. This means avoiding things that could potentially derail an otherwise strong application.

  3. The place on the Common App where anomalies are usually discussed is where one gives context for why the anomalies in question exist (scheduling conflicts, family issues, illnesses, learning challenges). The only context that I can surmise is that your D, proficient in a language spoken in the home, preferred to take electives rather than pursuing another FL or taking Japanese classes at the college level. That’s a perfectly reasonable choice, but it may have consequences.

  4. this whole issue might be better addressed by the GC – either in addition to or in lieu of, your D. Your D needs to be careful not to sound as though she’s making excuses (which, in a sense, she would be doing)

  5. A much stronger case would be “After taking the highest level of her chosen foreign language available to her, the applicant continued to pursue her language learning through self-study. This, in turn, allowed the student to reach ____ level of competency as demonstrated by her current enrollment in ___(Adv. Japanese / Japanese Literature) class at College” as opposed to “After testing out of the FL requirement with a 5 on the AP Japanese exam, ___ watches anime, reads manga, and speaks in the target language with family members.”

87

An EA possibility is College of Wooster.

88

I completely agree with you, and I’m not trying to stick my head in the sand and pretend it may not be an issue. The bigger problem is that she already made the decision not to take more FLs the last couple years, and I don’t know how she’ll be able to fit one in next year. (Though I will research it.) Perhaps an online college course or something that she can fit into her schedule. She’ll be taking 4 APs and working on college applications already as it is next year, and I hate to ask her to commute to UW or the local community college just in case the AOs don’t like the decision she made.

I do like the idea of having the GC address the question. Perhaps my D can discuss with her.

89

Follow up question on this: would it count if she followed the MIT Open Courseware syllabus on her own as self study instead of enrolling in an actual class? Or is that too reliant on the honor system. Of course she would only say that she’s doing this if she actually does it.

90

@dla26 - In one of my earlier posts I listed a variety of possibilities ranging from a UW summer class that starts tomorrow to a few online possibilities. In case the information got lost in the shuffle, I am cutting-and-pasting an edited version below:

B-term summer classes at UW start tomorrow. Your D could potentially take an advanced Japanese class – 3rd year = JAPAN 334) or 2nd year (JAPAN 224), depending where her competency falls (there is probably an online placement test). She should definitely consider doing a language class there. Can she adjust her work schedule to make it work?

Personally, I would show up to the first class and discuss it with the professor and deal with the bureaucracy later.

Here’s the summer schedule:

http://www.washington.edu/students/timeschd/SUM2018/japanese.html

https://asian.washington.edu/summer-study

Here’s the fall schedule:

https://www.washington.edu/students/timeschd/AUT2018/japanese.html

The only online summer language classes offered at UW are in elementary Greek (which if she has any interest in the Classics, might be interesting).

As for online Japanese, I found two options (surely there must be more)

University of Maryland has online courses, but only up through advanced intermediate level:

https://www.umuc.edu/academic-programs/course-information.cfm?course=JAPN

Brigham Young University (an excellent school for languages, given the whole missionary thing.) BYU has a whole series of independent study online college classes – including advanced foreign language and literature classes – all offer college credit:

https://is.byu.edu/search/search_by_page/online%20japanese

Two classes look particularly promising:

Readings in Japanese History and Culture — Standard JAPAN-302-200

Japanese Reading and Culture — Standard JAPAN-301-200

As I also mentioned before, your D might also be well served by taking the SAT Subject test (preferably with listening – offered only in November) as an additional form of demonstrating competency.

91

I don’t know if I’d go overboard on this. I mean… why do colleges ask for foreign language study? Two reasons I can see: (1) they want students with a bit broader view of the worlds (it seems like a student who speaks another language fluently from their family life probably satisfies that); (2) to prove they can learn another language in a classroom setting, since that is quite challenging for some students. Your kid didn’t do this second piece. So the question is, what else did your kid do with that time that wasn’t spent on language classes? If her substitute was academically rigorous or she performed at a high level (let’s say she used the extra time to become very good at visual arts, for example), I don’t think schools will hold it against her. I wouldn’t run around and take more classes and tests.

92

Wow - how did you find that? :slight_smile: I did a google search for online courses, but mostly came up empty.

The UW course would be ideal, but she won’t be able to fit it into her schedule this summer. The BYU ones look perfect, though. It’s online and advanced.

Also good idea about the SAT Subject Test!

93

I do not think colleges are at all impressed by tests taken in a language your kid hears at home/in their family (which is how she learned this, right)? Do not waste your time or money on the subject test. It isn’t going to provide any info to the college that they don’t already have.

Aside from your situation, we NEVER recommend that one of a kid’s subject tests be in a language they learned at home. It feels lazy to a college – they want subject tests in things the student worked for in HS.

94

@dla26 - I had done all of this research for my daughter when was in a similar situation a while back. (I can be a pretty obsessive Googler when I put my mind to it. ;)))

My D is a “heritage speaker” of Spanish and began taking French in addition to Spanish in HS. There were some possible scheduling conflicts at one point, so I researched alternatives. She ended up hopscotching between French and Spanish, taking both in Freshman year, French only in Sophomore, Spanish only in junior year, and French and Spanish in senior year).

As for the question @intparent’s raises, I agree that one of the reasons FL is required is: “…(2) to prove they can learn another language in a classroom setting, since that is quite challenging for some students. Your kid didn’t do this second piece. So the question is, what else did your kid do with that time that wasn’t spent on language classes?”

My concern lies in the fact that on the face of it, it may seem to an AO that OP’s D might have decided to take a series of “non-honors 1-semester electives (Forensic Science, Digital Graphics, Personal Finance, International Relations, and Biotech)” in lieu of taking classes in a core subject. (Which, in reality, is what she did). I think OP’s D would be well served by showing that she can handle college-level work in a FL in addition to a hodgepodge of electives. (And, no open courseware won’t cut it; writing and publishing a short story in Japanese or taking an advanced literature for college credit would.)

Just my $.02 (and that’s probably all it’s worth).

95

When it comes to foreign language study, the corollary to what it takes to get in, is what it takes to get out. Many colleges have a FL language requirement for graduation, and many of those have a proficiency standard that allows students to “place out” of that requirement. How proficiency is determined varies widely.

My son for other reasons was language adverse, and though he studied two separate languages in high school (and was fluent in one) he wasn’t keen to engage in college level FL. He, therefore, looked very carefully at each college’s degree requirement as it relates to FL. Williams, where he ended up, had none. You have to comb through the fine print of the course requirements – both at the college and departmental level – to understand the process. In many cases the rules are extremely convoluted and opaque.

Because he wanted to concentrate on several arts-related areas of interest to him personally, my son didn’t take math OR science his senior year. This to me was a highly risky admissions strategy, but it worked out okay. Anecdotal, I know, but a case in point that recommendations are fluid.

My son looked at about half of the schools on your daughter’s list. He had a great four years at Williams and would choose it again in a heartbeat, but due to its isolated, mountain village location, I’d strongly suggest a visit. For my son, Williams’ outdoorsy, nature focused environment was a plus, but it’s the antithesis of an urban campus like Brown’s.

Williams, Amherst, Bowdoin and Hamilton have a good deal of cultural overlap so if your daughter “really loved” Bowdoin then I think there’s a good chance that she would like the others. I like to characterize the culture as active, rather than athletic, as the prevailing focus is on casual and social physical activity – e.g., a goofy game of broomball, midnight sledding, a walk in the woods – but not necessarily on organized or team sports.

Most (all?) academically rigorous colleges lean left, but Brown, Wesleyan, Oberlin go farther on the social activism scale. This isn’t to say that a student couldn’t have some from each group on his/her shortlist (my son did). More visits may help define the prevailing cultures.

I would also note that Williams has a vibrant theater program, with multiple opportunities for non-majors. The Williamstown Theater Festival is a highly respected summer event and although it’s not directly administered by the college, the influence rubs off and the facilities are first-rate.

And lastly, I would agree with others’ suggestions that your daughter take a deep look at Smith, Mt. Holyoke and Bryn Mawr. For academically driven young women who are attracted to LACs in northeast, these are, while not exactly safeties, strong likely admits.

96

There’s a great deal of pearl clutching around the notion of “activism” on elite college campuses and the funny thing is, it doesn’t seem to take very much of it to earn the opprobrium of some people. Thus, I have heard complaints of being approached in a cafeteria to sign a petition; complaints about bulletin boards “overflowing” with political messages; use of the “F” word on posters. TBH, I think a lot of these people lead very sheltered lives. Out of an institution of over 3,000 students, the largest Wesleyan demonstrations - the actual fruit of all that “activism” rarely exceed 200 students. So, yes, compared -0- number of activists at some of the smaller LACs noted above, that may seem like a lot. But, let’s not get crazy over it.

97

^Just laughing because, while active involvement in causes is a hallmark of the college experience and has been for many, many years— because people go to college at an age when people begin to think about the world and to define their place in it— this activism is not limited to college campuses or to young people!

I am posting on a Monday. Between Friday and today, I saw:

  • two older men sitting outside our local post office holding up posters advocating firing Mueller;
    -a car with its whole rear side completely covered in various bumper stickers and window decals urging people to protect the environment, to support LGBTQ+ people, etc.;
    -a pick-up truck with Trump’s head and name painted on the window;
    -a man in his 50’s or 60’s approached me in the Stop and Shop grocery store parking lot to ask me to sign a petition encouraging our town to avoid “overbuilding” the town, pointing to an apartment building being constructed on the other side of the parking lot;
    -emails from ACLU and DCCC seeking contributions.

Is seeing “activists” such as these a problem? If you don’t agree with a protest, just ignore it (I drove past the Mueller folks without comment) or take your own stand disagreeing with it (“Sorry, I won’t sign your petition because I think our town needs more low income housing.”).

—-
Also, is the term “pearl clutching” possibly sexist (or sexist plus classist), belitting a woman’s expression of disagreement with or concern about a political issue? (Ha ha.)

Anyway, I digressed from the point of the OP’s post. Couldn’t resist. Sorry.

98

^I will cop to the phrase “pearl clutching” as an act of cultural appropriation.

99

I think you are at high risk of dragging this thread into politics, which is not allowed. I do think Wes is on the far left end of LACs. Just read The Gatekeepers. Or about the bad batch of Molly a few years ago.

100

@intparent:

Since she had an extra period during the day in sophomore and junior year, she took 4 electives that she otherwise wouldn’t have been able to. In order of challenge/rigor: AP Microeconomics, Forensic Science, Personal Finance, Digital Graphics. I agree that if she had taken AP Chem and then AP Physics (or something like that), it’d be easier to argue that she took something of equal rigor.