Please, PLEASE help me! I'm getting desperate/scared!

Parents Forum
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<p>I was deferred from Yale SCEA.</p>

<p>GPA: 3.9 unweighted, 4.6 weighted</p>

<p>Rank: top 5% of class</p>

<p>SAT I: 1380
SAT II: 800, 780, 700, 650</p>

<p>Transcript: Many AP classes, rigorous curriculum</p>

<p>ECs:
-lots and lots of community service
-dedicated to theater and debate team
-an Editor for school newspaper
-political club
-class Rep
-other stuff, but major ones listed above ^</p>

<p>Awards: Awards for poetry, short stories, AP Scholar with Distinction, Award for community service, Award for GPA, National Merit Commended Scholar</p>

<p>Other:
-Been published in local newspapers
-Superb teacher rec. letters
-Excellent, creative, vivid essays
-Really, really, good at interviews</p>

<p>Special Status/Hook: Legacy (at Yale--guess it wasn't enough for EA)</p>

<p>After visiting this site, I am really not sure where I stand anymore...
I know my SAT I score is low compared to others applying, but I do have a pretty good GPA and rank, right? Also, I heard that the interview and essays are/can be very important, so hopefully those will help me...
But, I really, really would love your honest evaluations.</p>

<p>Do I have a shot at any Ivy League At All?
What about Wesleyan/Vassar/UC Berkeley?
What colleges should I look at? Where can I get in?
Thanks so much!</p>

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<p>All the really good advisor parents are in bed (where you should be) so I will just tell you that my niece was rejected EA Yale last year and is currently very happy at Tufts. I checked with my sister the other day and she honestly thinks her daughter is happier now/better fit than had she attended Yale.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, when they wake up, they also will probably tell you to develop a few really good safeties (shouldn't be hard with your great stats) and you have a chance at the other Ivies but it's a longshot like it is for most applicants. It's just that you have to invest so much emotion in those apps! Your best shot at getting accepted is to show them how much you love that particular school and are totally committed to them and it has been your dream for your entire life. You lay it all out for them in total sincerity, and kaboom! :( if you get rejected it is very hard to take. But if you want an Ivy the only way to get in is to apply. You play the game, you take your chances! :) It's a lot like getting rejected by a boy/girlfriend. You feel like you got kicked in the stomach, and it can take a while for that to go away. </p>

<p>So, get some sleep and check back later and I am sure there will be some excellent advice waiting for you! :)</p>

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<p>You should not feel desperate or scared just because you got deferred from a school that was an extreme reach for you. Frankly, were it not for legacy, Yale was an unrealistic reach from the get go, barring some extraordinary hook. I mean, it's one thing to hope you get a Mercedes convertible for your 16th birthday, but realistically it's probably not likely to happen!</p>

<p>I can't give you a lot of precision because I don't know key stuff like your race/ethnicity or type of high school. For example top 5% at Exeter is different than top 5% at huge CA magnet school which is different than top 5% at Podunk Regional High. However, take HYPSM out of the equation and every other school in the country would at least be a plausible reach. The five most selective LACs (Swarthmore, Amherst, Williams, Pomona, Harvey Mudd) are probably borderline -- it would all depend on the how you present yourself in the essays. I would say that the same would apply to Dartmouth, Brown, Penn, and Duke. But, that's true regardless of your stats.</p>

<p>Once you drop down the selectivity scale just a bit, you probably should start feeling more comfortable.</p>

<p>Wesleyan is probably a mild reach -- your "stats" probably put you somewhere above 50th percentile and below 75th percentile for that school. That's pretty good, but shy of what it would take for me to say, "oh yeah, no sweat, you're in!"</p>

<p>Vassar should be a solid match if you are a guy, a reasonable reach (about like Wesleyan) if you are a girl.</p>

<p>I don't feel qualified to predict admissions at any of the UC's.</p>

<p>Likewise, the question about "any Ivy" just doesn't compute for me because I have no idea which of the Ivy League schools are good "fits" for you. I mean, Dartmouth and Columbia couldn't be more different. I can't image the same student even applying to both. I also can't imagine a student saying, "I want to go to any school as long as it's in this particular football conference".</p>

<p>My daughter had slightly better "stats". We viewed the very top LACs as reaches. Matches included Davidson, Emory, Vanderbilt. Vassar was sort of borderline match/reach. She had planned to apply to Dickinson as a stone-cold safety.</p>

<p>BTW, "lots and lots of community service" can make the backbone of a very attractive applicaton -- probably the mos attractive of the EC's you list. However, you would have to highlight it in your essay to really maximize the impact.</p>

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<p>Chartreuse Glass, seeing posts like yours makes us parents feel sad about the whole college application process. You are a wonderful candidate – and most likely a wonderful person – so stop beating yourself up. The first thing you should do (after taking a deep breath) is flip over to the thread titled “Outcomes after EA/ED rejection last year”. There you will see that not only is there life after deferral (or even rejection) but it can be pretty darn good. Repeat the mantra: Ivy acceptance is random and unpredictable. Being rejected doesn’t mean that I’m a bad (or dumb or worthless or doomed to be unhappy) person. Sure it hurts to have this set back, but you shouldn’t let yourself get so discouraged.</p>

<p>So many fine colleges would be really happy and lucky to admit a student like you. Wesleyan and Vassar are possibles. (UCBerkeley maybe less so.) Have you visited these schools? The LACs especially like you to show interest by visiting and interviewing, ideally for overnights. Your grades, rank, and SATIIs are strong. Your 1380 SATI isn’t going to get you in or keep you out. If you can, take it again. If not, then concentrate on putting together a knockout application emphasizing your strengths. You’ll need great essays, great recommendations, plus a coherent presentation of your EC’s, in order to get across the image of your whole, wonderful self. As a writer, this should be a piece of cake for you.</p>

<p>In total you should apply to about 8 schools. Some of them should be selective, some safer. If you’d give us an idea of your preferences in size, location, coed/non, we’ll come up with a strong list in no time. Because I am partial to Williams, I’ll start there. Other ideas would be Bard, Hamilton, Connecticut College, Colby, Kenyon, plus Smith, Mt Holyoke, Bryn Mawr if you're female . . . there are just so many fine schools out there! I know that once you’ve set your heart on Yale, others, especially less selectives (or maybe less prestigious) schools may not sound so appealing, but give them a try. There are happy, smart, talented kids at thousands of colleges in America. You’ll find your place.</p>

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<p>apply to a whole lot of safeties
Also look at your Yale app and see what you did wrong. Possibly retool your essay and send in the revised version for regular decision.</p>

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<p>I catch a lot of flak around here for dashing cold water on expectations of HYPSM acceptances. However, I think the false hope of beating single-digit odds at these schools (in the absence of an identifiable extraordinary strength) is the number one cause of disappointment in the admissions game.</p>

<p>For next year's applicants, I will repeat my advice:</p>

<p>Build your college list of reaches, matches, and safeties as if HYPSM do not exist. Then, and only then, if you still feel like asking Santa for a Mercedes convertible in your stocking, then take a wild flier on application.</p>

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<p>RE: Top five LACs. Harvey Mudd's acceptance rate is 40%. Bowdoin is the school you meant: it ties with Swarthmore at 24%. Harvey Mudd is not even in the top ten. Middlebury is 23% but also not in the top ten overall.</p>

<p>To the OP - you didn't mention what schools you were already in the process of applying to. Please tell me that you did not put all your eggs in one basket: that you have visited and researched many other schools, that you have identified programs, professors, etc. so that your essays - which hopefully you have already started - can reflect a real knowledge and interest, etc.</p>

<p>If not - let this be a lesson to other students! No one wants to spend their entire Christmas vacation trying to IDENTIFY possible schools!</p>

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<p>((Hugs))</p>

<p>Ok, enough hugs......you aimed too high. Though, it's understandable due to the Legacy. But, even Legacies have to be in the ballpark. Don't be shocked and scared. Give yourself a pat on the back for having the guts to go for it.....but you should read your deferral letter, smile to yourself and think "okay, okay....can't blame me for trying!" Look at all of the kids who were deferred with MUCH higher stats. </p>

<p>There's nothing to be scared about. If you had gotten in, THEN you would have a reason to be scared (keeping up).</p>

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<p>read the "Outcomes after rejection ED/EA" thread here:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=15378%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=15378&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Now, get to work on some more applications. You're going to get in someplace where you will be very happy!</p>

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<p>Thank you all so much for replying!
You guys are really helpful!
Yale is not the only school I love. I just love Yale the most. =(
I also love Brown, Dartmouth, Cornell, Wesleyan, Vassar, Stanford, Tufts.
And I do have "good matches" and "safeties" on my list, like University of Washington, Bucknell and Clark University and some of the lower UCs.
I am almost done with the whole application process, but now I am so worried that I won't be getting into any of the colleges I love, and only the good matches/safties. Don't get me wrong, I still like those schools, but I really want to attend one of those colleges that I love. If those are truly unrealistic for me (which is a big blow, because I have worked so hard) then what are colleges/universities that are similar and that I can love too?</p>

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<p>Nedad:</p>

<p>No, I meant Harvey Mudd. It is incredibly difficult to get into. Don't be misled by the fairly high acceptance rate. As a pure tech school, Mudd doesn't get a flood of applications "walkin' in off the street", so to speak. The kids who do apply are well self-selected, eliminating the "cull" that occurs at the bigger brand-name schools. When a school's 75th percentile SAT is above 1500, you can be pretty sure it's tough to get into! Mudd's median SATs (1370-1550) are full 100 points above Bowdoin's (1290-1440). Of course, Mudd isn't really a liberal arts college.</p>

<p>I would put Bowdoin and Wesleyan together with Haverford, Carleton, Claremont-McKenna, Wellesley, Davidson, Middlebury, Vassar together as the next group of LAC admissions difficulty -- all with 75th percentile SATs in the mid to high 1400s. The actual odds will vary for each student. For example, a girl has better odds at Wellesley than a guy!</p>

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<p>InterestedDad wrote: "I catch a lot of flak around here for dashing cold water on expectations of HYPSM acceptances. "</p>

<p>Please keep it up with the cold water. Your advice and experience is one that I have personally counted on throughout the last year. We did as you have advised so many times -- built our son's list from the bottom (safety) up. All seven schools are ones that he knows he can be happy at (they have the academic and EC and location criteria he wants). We tried to package his applications to really focus on his strengths and hook. We brainstormed his essays so that his activity essay leads into his personal statement essay which leads into his supplemental (hook) essay, each connected but showing different facets of what he can bring to a school community and classroom. And, because of your occasional cold water splashes, we are reasonably realistic about his chances at the reach schools on the list and have played up the safety/match schools so much that if/when he is declined by the uber-reaches on his list, there should be no devastation (just a little jolt of reality and then onward to a wonderful college experience somewhere). So, keep it up ID! </p>

<p>-- Momof2 in CA</p>

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<p>You can't tell very much from selectivity either, once one gets into the top 100. Let's try it with two of the "top" schools: Yale and Swarthmore. It looks like Yale is more selective. Well, maybe. First, take out the several thousand internationals, accepted at a 2-3% rate. Then the "developmental" admits - a much higher proportion at Yale than at Swarthmore. Then Yale has to stock all of its sports teams - on the one hand, they have to admit a bunch of them, but on the other hand, football hopefuls are not likely to apply to Swarthmore. Then the added advantages given to a much higher number of legacies at Yale. Then there is the need to make sure there are students for the specialized departments, which at Yale might include, say, Egyptology and certainly Lesbian/Gay Studies. The point is, when one is done, you discover that the overall selectivity number didn't tell you very much at all, either about admissions policies, the quality of the applicants, or the characteristics of those admitted.</p>

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<p>That was VERY insightful and helpful, mini (as usual, regarding your posts!). I was just going by straight selectivity, but of course you are right. I hope you never leave this board!</p>

<p>Interesteddad: I don't put anywhere NEAR the emphasis on SAT scores that you do. In addition, all schools self-select to a large extent.</p>

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<p>Are you a California resident? If so, could you tell us your UC GPA? I am assuming that you have already applied to the UC's as the application deadline is long gone.</p>

<p>Some schools that have a similar feel to Vassar and Wesleyan where you'd have an EXCELLENT change of acceptance in RD: Skidmore, Oberlin, Lewis & Clark (Oregon), Pitzer (Calif.). If you're female, try Smith, Mt. Holyoke or Scripps as possibilities. ANother possibility would be Kenyon or Sarah Lawrence. These might be closer than places like Clark, Bucknell and U of Washington to the feel of Vassar, WEsleyan, even Yale. They attract more liberal student bodies and have a more "creative" atmosphere than the other schools on your list.</p>

<p>I think you have a shot at Vassar and Wesleyan but it would be good to add one or two safeties that you absolutely love (Pitzer and Lewis & Clark could be considered safeties, kenyon the others matches with the exception of Oberlin). I am a bit concerned by people who ask "Do I have a chance at any of the other ivies?" because it usually indicates someone more concerned with "name recognition" than fit. However, if you absolutely must have an ivy, try Cornell. It would be your best shot.</p>

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<p>Nevertheless, Yale is much harder to get into than Swarthmore. I believe my daughter's chances of anything but a polite deferal at Yale would have been 0.00%. I think those goose-egg odds would have applied at four of the five HYPSM schools, with an outside long shot (maybe 1%) at the fifth for specific, identifiable reasons. And I still say that knowing that she had a specific EC focus on her application that would be a "home run ball" in most admissions departments.</p>

<p>For all intents and purposes, HYPSM are literally "impossible" to get into, lacking great stats AND a specfic, identifiable strength. Kids (and the parents who push them), would be better off if they stopped throwing applications against the HYPSM wall, hoping against hope that something will stick. For most kids, applying to these schools should be considered only as a lark, not part of the real college list building process. </p>

<p>The danger is that, if you start actually thinking you have a chance, then you calibrate your list accordingly. Suddenly, you fall into the trap of thinking Brown and Dartmouth and Wiliams must be "matches", since Yale is reach. Without that kind of miscalculation, the Dartmouths and the Amhersts would be the "big reach" schools, and the comfortable matches slotting in accordingly. Yale was never a legitimate "reach" in this scenario, it was pie in the sky.</p>

<p>To me, appropriate applicants at HYPSM are kids where Dartmouth, Duke, or Swarthmore would be COMFORTABLE matches. And, remember, my definition of a comfortable match (for a non-URM, non-athlete) includes "stats" at roughly the 75th percentile for the school.</p>

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<p>30% of students attending Yale have SATs below 1380.</p>

<p>Nonetheless, I think it true that for a kid coming from a family with an income between the 35-95th percentile, the odds are less than 1 in 20. (Americans in that category at Yale make up less than 30% of the total student body, which is absolutely extraordinary, though it is the same at Princeton, and almost the same at Brown and Harvard. In aggregate (not for individuals), and only looking at those who actually apply, I have no doubt that family income is the single greatest predictor of admissions, with higher admissions at the higher and lower ends.)</p>

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<p>Yes. But, I think people get fooled into false hope by that. The problem is that getting into HYPSM with what I call a "standard issue" application (high SATs and GPA, student council, school newspaper, debate team, violin in the orchesta, captain of the soccer team, and "a 100 hours of community service") is impossible. They just get too many of those cookie-cutter apps from cookie cutter schools in cookie cutter suburbs. </p>

<p>If you are going with a "standard issue" application, then your "standard issue" stuff has to be through the roof (and it is very hard to be "through the roof" at a school where the 75th percentile SAT is 1590!) The successful "cookie-cutter" applicants are walking in on well-trod paths, be it fifth generation legacy, the cohort from Exter that year, or mind-blowing academic strength.</p>

<p>I don't think that people understand that, when you dig beneath the surface of those low to mid stat acceptances at HYPSM, you almost invariably find either a hook (URM, athlete, Star Wars acting credits, daughter of a president, etc.) or some outstanding accomplishment or an unusual application that tickles the fancy of the adcom. For example, you can get into Harvard with a 1400 SAT, if you started an elementary school mentoring program in a Haitian school district in Miami, received successful grant funding to make the program self-sustaining, and won a Toyota Scholarship based your community service program. For the most part, the low to mid stat acceptances at HYPSM are very unusual, quirky applications with an intense commitment to some activity.</p>

<p>BTW, Mini, I agree with your thoughts on enrollment advantages for the extremes of the income ladder. I am using the phrase "cookie cutter" to incorporate many attributes generally found in reasonably affluent (but not Bill Gates territory) suburban America. The cookie cutter apps come predominantly from the group you suggest is under-represented.</p>

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<p>"For the most part, the low to mid stat acceptances at HYPSM are very unusual, quirky applications with an intense commitment to some activity."</p>

<p>Yes, the applications are unusual, but the acceptances are NOT. That immediately tells one a lot about whom they are looking for, doesn't it? (Again, I think you could reliably break it out by income, with much higher percentages of 5%ers and low-income folks among them.)</p>

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<p>You are right, Interesteddad. The OP is an excellent candidate for nearly all colleges in teh US. Yale happens to be one of those with lottery ticket odds. However, it was her first choice, and it appears that she likes a lot of other schools that are highly selective too. Well and good that she applied. Now that the apps are in, she needs to go through withdrawal from being addicted to those schools. If she is accepted, well and good. No problems there. But she needs to start getting attracted to those schools on her list that are realistic choices so when one of those accepts her, she is excited about going there, instead of still holding out for one of those schools that are very difficult to get in. </p>

<p>It's tough for these kids who labor over these apps, talk about the school, visit the schools, since there is more fuss over the most selective ones. When you say you've applied to HPY or the ivies, there is a noticablly different reception than when you say you are applying to Pitt. The real job is learning about those schools that are matches. One good thing about ED for those who are deferred and turned down, is that it does provide a cold turkey withdrawal of counting on getting into one of those schools which many applicants start doing as they mull the possiblilities of being a Yalie next year, and can't think any further than that.</p>