<p>skiblack, with respect to “sneering,” I have to say, in as mature a way as possible, that GFG is rubber, and you’re glue, and what you say bounces off and comes back to you.</p>
<p>CC is the only place I have ever encountered Ivy-bashing. Never happened IRL. On CC, it is all too common. And yes, it is usually specifically directed at the Ivies. Stanford, Cal Tech, MIT, Rice, Northwestern, the U of C, Duke, JHU et al: all of the other private elite universities are pretty much exempt.</p>
<p>Now, my H’s parents would undoubtedly have engaged in it, since they were resolutely anti-intellectual, right-wing Midwesterners who were unrelentingly vocal about their dislike of everything about the pinko-commie Northeast, starting with the trees and twisty roads. But they both died by the time S was in 6th grade, so I heard only murmurs directed at me and my schools. H’s siblings, while directional state U types themselves, are not going to voice such resentments, if they have them.</p>
<p>My family is solidly in the elite school camp. In fact, my father said he was “disappointed” that S went to Dartmouth, although in fairness I think what he really meant was that he hoped S would choose the U of C instead, not that he was sorry that S didn’t get into H or Y. (The thread about legacies really fries me, because Y was really S’s first choice, and we subsequently realized that through some kind of administrative error he was not counted as a legacy. Oh well.)</p>
<p>I admit that when S made his choice, I think I said something about the unique U of C experience “always” being available at the grad level, should he wish to go there later. I think I was consoling myself more than counseling him. But the U of C is a school where that is true. THe U of C is a very grad-centered school. It is not so true in some other cases, where the undergrad experience is radically different. </p>
<p>Anyway, I think that ApprenticeProf summed it all up well on the college level.</p>
<p>Now, if we could only stop people from stating that kids who do music are only doing it because the parents are pushing them for college aps, and that kids take APs not for the intellectual stimulation but for the the college admissions boost, and that kids who do sports do it only for the same reason, and that kids who do all three have no time for themselves and are being denied a “normal” childhood, and on and on and on.</p>
<p>Why, if we could accomplish that, maybe we could move on to conquering the mindset that only STEM fields are worthy of study and that anyone who chooses another major must be doing so because it is “easier” and besides that they must have taken a vow of poverty and are doomed to asking “do you want fries with that” in Akkadian or French or whatever obscure language they made the mistake of learning when they could have been studying ENGINEERING!! (That was your cue to bow down before the almighty, in case you missed it.)</p>
<p>Hunt: LOL! Too true. :D</p>
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<p>If that’s really your only or main objection to elite colleges then your real concern is not with elite colleges per se but with private colleges. When you look at the various tuition or COA lists, the highly-selective schools are scattered there among others on the list. But in there with them are a whole bunch of far less selective private schools that charge just as much and sometimes even more. At least people get a famous “brand name” for their money at the selective schools. Those attending not-so-well-known expensive private schools don’t get even that.</p>
<p>But if your real gripe is not so much with cost as it is with the notion of “elite,” well, that’s a different conversation.</p>
<p>Thanks, Hunt. Who needs thousands of cousins to reference, when I have you right here?</p>
<p>Seriously, skiblack, I think I do understand your feelings and there are many on here who have expressed the same. My point has always been that saying certain schools are better than others according to stated criteria, does not equate to saying all other schools are useless. Similarly, claiming that most elite school students are bright, talented, hard-working and motivated does not equate to saying that all other students lack those qualities. That said, it is also true that there are actually some very poor schools and some very poor students. Some of the poor students are indeed lazy. </p>
<p>The problem I’ve tried to address on this and other threads is the unfortunate attitudes and behavior of some people who would have wished for their children to attend an elite school, but it didn’t work out for whatever reason. In my experience, too many of these express their disappointment by bashing the elite schools and their students in a multitude of ways, both direct and subtle.</p>
<p>The other group, which you claim you belong to, is not motivated by sour grapes. These parents were never interested in those schools for their children to begin with or their child was not interested, and often for perfectly valid reasons. It could have be due to fit considerations, it could be they aren’t strong for the desired major, it could be the cost, and yes, it could be a lack of academic ability and/or motivation on the part of their child. These parents are nevertheless aware of the prestige accorded to the top schools and their graduates, and it angers them. After all, they and their children are every bit as wonderful, and perhaps more wonderful, than the elite school parents and kids. They feel bad, and that morphs into a sense that the elite school people are MAKING them feel bad, which morphs into accusations of arrogance, snobbery, and the rest. </p>
<p>The problem is that the vast majority of the elite school crowd does not feel that way, act that way, or in fact care all that much about any real or perceived inferiority of state schools any more than you claim to care about the real or perceived superiority of elite schools. Yet they are still frequently maligned.</p>
<p>“And yes, it is usually specifically directed at the Ivies. Stanford, Cal Tech, MIT, Rice, Northwestern”
- just because Northwestern is on the list:
My family is so solidly into “any place that fits”, that frankly D. has turned down Northwestern Med. School for another lower ranked but MORE EXPENSIVE one.
I know I would floor many here. But time and again, she chooses the place that she feels more fitting for her personally. It has been working so far!!!
Another point as I said before, nobody around us is too much into these talks, so she definitely would not be asked or initiate herself going around and broadcasting her attending the Northwestern Med. School (if she chooses so). She also would never bash it. She just simply said, that another school fits her better…and, surprize, she is not crazy about Chicago at all…</p>
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<p>absolutely correct. Other than the superior attitudes displayed by some who have gone to elite schools, I have nothing against elite schools nor their graduates. My scorn is reserved primarily for the Private Schools, elite or not, who charge so much for their non-superior educations, and siphon money from parents, the student loan system and ultimately the taxpayer who will be picking up a lot of the debt when student loans are never paid back. What these schools now charge is simply outrageous, and they get away with it through slick marketing and an essentially dysfunctional student aid and loan system that feeds them.</p>
<p>Some privates also are offerring terrific Merit packages to top kids. They are more widely available, since they are not limited to IS students but to everybody. For some top kids with limited resources, privates will widen their college selection.
Private college gave my D. much higher Merit award then all the state schools that she has applied. She had chosen to go somewhere else for non-financial reasons, but she was there also on full tuition Merit (which was much lower award than at private).
The point about many privates and much more about Ivy’s and other elites that D. has pointed to us many time over, that kids who gradute from these top places many times are not as socially developed and mature, they are not connecting easily to others. Understandably so, they have been in not very diverse crowd of very top HSers. It might be impirtant for some environments to be more socially aware. Specifically if a goal is Med. School, mature personality and high level of social awareness will have an advantage.</p>
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This is garbage.</p>
<p>In a word. :D</p>
<p>Not sure what category of basher you are, MiamiDAP, but did you really just repeat that ridiculous stereotype that elite school kids are less socially aware? The claim they are less mature is a brand new one! And I presume your wise and accomplished D visited a random sample of elite and non-elite schools and performed a socio-psychological study to conclude this? </p>
<p>I give up.</p>
<p>Never give up, GFG.</p>
<p>That’s ridiculous to suggest that kids at elite schools are somehow socially immature / unable to connect with others. Now THAT sounds like sour grapes. People are people. There are jerks and saints everywhere at all levels of the intellectual spectrum and at all levels of the college spectrum.</p>
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<p>I feel like you go back and forth between these two attitudes:
“It’s one thing for Harvard to charge $50K, but for U Miami to charge $50K when they aren’t offering anything as good as Harvard is ridiculous.”
“It’s ridiculous for Harvard to charge $50K, since Harvard is and can be no better than any flagship that costs $25K.”</p>
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<p>I (me, myself and I, ok and my husband too) <em>do</em> think it’s worth <em>us</em> paying $60K per kid per year to attend elite schools, and we’ve felt that way ever since we were young marrieds and lived below our means to enable this to happen. I can think of few better ways for <em>us</em> to spend <em>our</em> money, as I’m not into big houses, fancy cars, furs or diamonds. I was not “taken in” and it’s of no relevance that anyone other than the two of us “understand” our reasoning. </p>
<p>There are a lot of things that are perfectly adequate and far less expensive than the luxury options in life. In many categories, I choose those things because I don’t value the “better” options – cars being a good example. In this category, I do value the “better” options – even if that “better” is just an intangible feel / experience.</p>
<p>Whether other choices are “adequate” is irrelevant. We wanted to take our kids to Europe for their hs graduation, so we did. It’s irrelevant that a camping vacation or a stay at the Motel 6 would have been “adequate.” People pay money for all kinds of experiences, and this is no different.</p>
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<p>LOL, I am married to someone who is Mr. Personality Plus and got into medical school (and first choice residency) despite having gone to an elite undergrad. LOL.</p>
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<p>Spare me. No one is “forced” to pay for an elite school any more than anyone is “forced” to buy a Porsche instead of a Ford, or a McMansion instead of a simple townhouse. Plenty of people say - I don’t value this, I’m going to send my kid to Local State Flagship and that’s that. That’s not me, but so what? It’s not my money. If they’re wrong, that’s their problem - and if I’m wrong and I’ve wasted my money, that’s my problem.</p>
<p>Truth is, even Harvard is a pig of a school. For example, Law School tuition, about 52K now, has gone up by these amounts in 2013 dollars since 1971:</p>
<p>1971: $13,150</p>
<p>1981: $16,300</p>
<p>1991: $28,750</p>
<p>2001: $37,000 </p>
<p>And true, no one is “forced” into paying extreme private school tuition. They are merely scammed into doing so, thus my previous assertion about buying a pig in a poke.</p>
<p>But at least Harvard does convey the Harvard Brand, which goes a long way to supporting a person’s ego if nothing else. So that is worth something.</p>
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<p>This makes absolutely no sense at all. </p>
<p>Are you saying people should avoid the elite colleges/universities if they want to go to med school because they’ll need to develop social maturity and only Big U can do that?!</p>
<p>Or are you saying kids who are in top high schools have doomed themselves to having zero social skills and they are further stunted by attending elite colleges/universities? And by doing so, they have killed their chances for success in medical school or admission to medical school?</p>
<p>I think what Miami is hinting at is that there are a number of psychologically damaged kids going to these schools, and I am sure there are depending on the reasons they are there. if they were pressured to get there by their families I have little doubt much harm was caused to their psyches over the years. Of course I have not studied this or read any clinical studies, but I would not be surprised if depression, etc. was above average at these schools. After all, how great can a life be where everything from the time you are a child is a competition to be the best and the brightest at everything you did?</p>
<p>Some people are internally motivated. You seem to have a hard time with that. Personally, I was <em>never</em> pushed by my parents to be a top student - they were proud of my achievements, of course, but it was never them pushing me. I pushed myself, completely. I wasn’t competitive with others – that’s not my style – but I was absolutely competitive with myself and cared greatly about getting excellent grades, etc. I also just really, really like to learn things. What’s so hard about understanding that that’s how some people are constituted?</p>
<p>skiblack,
When I enter those tuition numbers into an online inflation calculator, it shows that HLS was actually cheaper in 2001 than in 1971.</p>