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<p>Well, sure. But how often does that happen–a kid with Harvard-caliber stats choosing SNSU? He isn’t that smart if he had no other options in between, and his parents aren’t very nice if they encouraged him to apply and he got in, but then they refused to pay for it.</p>
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I’m still chuckling over this, and even more over the idea that nobody on CC does this. Well, at least nobody has cited William Deresciewicz in this thread.</p>
<p>Look, the real reason not to say, “You can always go to Harvard for grad school” is that in almost any context, it’s a dopey thing to say. If the kid was rejected by Harvard, it’s probably not true, and if he did get into Harvard, it’s not a very good reason not to go there. I can accept “you should save your money for the best grad/prof school you can get into” for somebody who will have financial issues, but not the “you can always…” construction. I imagine that most students roll their eyes when they hear it, anyway.</p>
<p>I have only seen the “you can always go to Harvard for grad school” said when the circumstance is such:</p>
<p>Kid didn’t get into HYPSM , is crushed, has acceptances at other fine schools (even other top 20s or the Michigans/Berkeleys of the world) but is licking wounds. Still sees HYPSM as the center of the universe. So “you can always go to HYPSM for grad school” is said in the context of - “ok, you missed the brass ring this time, but never fear - you’ll live through the sub-optimality of what you’re embarking on, and you can still make it to that pinnacle - just a few years down the line!” Which I think is spectacularly unhelpful versus the truth which is – but hey, you got into a bunch of great schools, it’s all terrific, HYPSM are great but there’s plenty of great to go around, go and enjoy.</p>
<p>I haven’t seen it offered in the context of “you got into Harvard and SNWSU, but why bother going to Harvard now when you can always go for grad school.”</p>
<p>And Hunt, I would be shocked and upset if anyone thought I, of all people, was denigrating or devaluing the experience at elite schools.</p>
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Can’t speak for Dartmouth, but I’ve got a friend whose son was at Princeton who moaned all the time about how her son was floundering, there was no advising, classes were large and impersonal and she wished he’d gone to Amherst.</p>
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Pizzagirl, I wouldn’t accuse you of that, although I might characterize your general view as thinking that nothing is really as great as some people make it out to be–and that I can respect.</p>
<p>Personally, I think the kid rejected from Harvard should be told, “Hey, their loss.” That’s what a truly supportive person says.</p>
<p>The whole LAC comparison is apples to kiwi fruit in my experience. A kid can major in Classics with an focus on Greek Tragedy or Roman Sculpture or Hellenistic theology and in any university in the world, will have an LAC like experience. Most of the courses (apart from the first year language classes) will be tiny seminars with both grad and undergrad students sitting around a table. I took one undergrad Classics seminar at my University which was team taught by two professors from different disciplines- 8 students total.</p>
<p>OR- a kid can major in Psychology or Comp Sci or Bio and have relatively large (vs. the institutions average) enrollment almost throughout.</p>
<p>So it’s silly to say that X university is like an LAC. All universities are like LAC’s in some ways. The question is- are those ways meaningful for your kid?</p>
<p>The advising in my department was exceptional. Every professor (except for one emeritus who only showed up on ceremonial occasions) knew every undergrad, even those who had never taken a class in his or her area. Departmental awards had to be granted anonymously (you submitted papers under a pseudonym and your identity was only revealed after the faculty votes) because the professors were so involved with the students that they didn’t want favoritism to blur their judgment.</p>
<p>Was this the case in other departments? No, but what did I care? I wasn’t an Electrical Engineering major, and I wasn’t a Psych major, and I wasn’t a Bio major. I had access to all the faculty whenever I needed it, and there was no question when it was time for grad school recommendations to be written that any undergrad in the department could find a professor or two or three who would vigorously advocate for them.</p>
<p>PG, you are on every one of the these threads along with me, and also have your own refrain. I don’t want to rehash my personal comments from other threads, but the anti- elite school folks are pretty darn relentless–on CC and IRL. It would be social suicide for those of us whose kids happily attend those schools to engage in even a fraction of the obnoxiousness they exhibit. Why do I say that? Not because we’re better or more humble or less petty. But because the social bar of tolerance is so very low for us that all it takes for anyone to accuse one of us of being braggart and snob is to wear an HYPS sweatshirt. I’d have to be a masochist to publicly offer the opinions I am writing here, so I don’t. </p>
<p>Obviously, we did what we thought best for our own kids’ education, and would like to assume other parents are doing the same. However, unlike those of us on CC, many parents simply don’t know the first thing about assessing a school–apart from subjective differences in priorities, to which each has his right. There are a lot of misperceptions that cause people to potentially steer their children wrong, and the OP hit on one of them. </p>
<p>Here’s one that also bothers me quite a bit, and it has nothing to do with an elite school. Our county and the county to the north have the top-rated community colleges in the state, and are clearly superior to their counterparts in certain subjects in the STEM field due to grant funding and facilities. However, based in the perceived cachet of the geographic area in which CCs to the south are located, parents who can ill afford it routinely pay a surcharge to sent their kids outside the county. Maybe that’s a fit consideration, but maybe it’s just plain ignorance.</p>
<p>I just saw a flier put out by our public library about a college admissions event. The presenters advertise that they will offer strategies regarding admissions and paying for college. The one presenter’s credential is that he claims to have wrangled “discount prices” for each of his 3 kids, and names Harvard as one of the schools attended. The implication of the bio was that through his superior knowledge and savvy, which he will share with seminar participants, he paid less for H than he otherwise would have. Don’t we wish there was some secret to paying less, just like not paying sticker price for a new car?</p>
<p>We all have our differences, and I don’t expect everyone to think like I do. But I do get annoyed when parental ego motivates them to diminish the accomplishments of our high-achieving students and the schools they attend. Let’s be honest, most of the people who love to put down elite schools do it because their kids can’t or didn’t get in and they consider that a put-down. There are exceptions, of course. But the fundamental motivation seems to be “God forbid anyone should ever think my child is less than any other kid,” so they have to assert that Johnny, who was rejected, simply wasn’t interested in going to a snobby (fill in other insulting adjectives) school like HYP et. al, or that it would be WASTE of money to send him there just for undergrad. because those schools aren’t any better than _______________ (state schools). I don’t need or want anyone to bow down to my kids or their schools–but I get a little sick of the opposite too.</p>
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<p>Agree completely. “Their loss, move on” rather than “omg, you’re right, you didn’t get the holy grail, but you can still redeem yourself a few years from now.”</p>
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<p>I’m a little confused here. Is it that you feel sympathy for other parents because misguided concerns about prestige “force” them to pay a surcharge to send their kids elsewhere versus the comm college which is what they can best afford? Or is it that you feel disdain for other parents because they put down elite schools out of the defensiveness of their-Johnny-couldn’t-get-it-anyway? Are these the same sets of parents, or different sets?</p>
<p>In the second case, I guess I really have a hard time understanding why, if you believe these are just jealous, petty people, why their comments seem to hit so close to the bone for you. If someone says, “Well, I wouldn’t be interested in sending *my kid / wasting *my money to send my kid to Harvard, which is for snobs and nerds,” and you believe they are secretly jealous that your kid is at Harvard AND you know better (that Harvard is indeed not snobby and nerdy), then can’t you just let their comment fall to the floor and walk on by? I guess what I’m saying is - things only hit home if they touch on nerves. </p>
<p>My D goes to a top 10 LAC that is unknown to Mr. & Mrs. Joe Average around here. They never heard of the place or if so, only vaguely. They don’t really understand why you’d send a kid to Boston for school - I mean, you want a place smaller than U of I, why not send your kid to Bradley U down in Peoria, amirite? Whatever! Let them think what they want. It matters not a whit to me or to my D’s future. She’s never going to be in their circles again. When you know better – and you certainly do – the opinions of Mr. & Mrs. Joe Average just don’t have a lot of power, IMO.</p>
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But Pizzagirl, you never understand why anybody cares what somebody else says or thinks. It appears, however, that many people do care, at least in some situations.</p>
<p>There will always be anti-elites. It’s the name of the game. Even politicians with elite backgrounds, incomes and education slam other elites for the sake of votes.</p>
<p>The funny thing to me is that my D is now one of the elite students. </p>
<p>I truly see her as elite. She is off the charts. But we’ve maintained our humility which many people don’t do. Her giftedness is a gift from God, not something we planned or designed at her conception.</p>
<p>Too many people give the “elites” a bad name by losing perspective, thinking they got their eliteness because they are more deserving or better than others. So, elite students get bashed mostly undeservedly because the arrogance and condescension of a few as well as the inferiority complexes of many.</p>
<p>As far as what this post is originally about…kids are told about what they can do at grad school usually because they have one school they love with all their hearts and another they think will set them up for the future. Usually, I advise going with one knowing that you may have a second chance at the other. It’s not great advice but it’s an annoying dilemma.</p>
<p>Right, Hunt. But when that happens, you can either a) try to change other people’s opinions (in this case, TheGFG can go try to convince her friends / neighbors that Harvard is indeed a better education, worth the money, and it’s full of pleasant students, not snobs or nerds) or b) reflect on your own reactions and why you have them. And in that reflection, sometimes you come to realizations about yourself that help other people’s opinions lose their power over you. I realize I sound like a therapist here!</p>
<p>I think some of us do (2) in real life, and (1) on CC. Here, we don’t have to “smile and nod.”</p>
<p>I agree with both GFG and PizzaGirl here.</p>
<p>GFG- I’ll add to your post that there’s another category of elite school put-down folks, and those are people who for whatever reasons have financial priorities that exclude paying for a private U. I’m talking folks in the NY Metro area making $250K+ (so even with high taxes, nobody is taking up a collection to buy them a Thanksgiving turkey) who have boxed themselves in to a house, a lifestyle (skiing and whatnot) and nice cars. They know what it takes on a cash flow basis to maintain this lifestyle, and no way, no how are they giving up Vail in February to send little Johnnie or Joanie to U Penn or JHU. So whether the kid is Harvard material or not, by sophomore year of HS the drum beat begins-- anyone in ear shot who has made different lifestyle choices (the SAH parent goes back to work full time, extreme budgeting to ramp up the college fund, etc.) is clearly an idiot and a chump. Everyone knows that Harvard is full of snobs and classes are filled with preppies and teachers never show up for work and you’ll get taught by a grad student who doesn’t speak English half the time. Smart people go to Baruch or another CUNY and save their money to buy the kid a fancy car when he graduates.</p>
<p>Yes, I find this irritating.</p>
<p>However, I also agree with PG. I listen to it and smile and nod and hear that not only are my kids elitists who couldn’t think for themselves to realize that U Mass is just as good as MIT and they’re both even in Massachusetts! Imagine that! But that even though I’m smart enough to have a job and pay my taxes and be an otherwise upstanding citizen, I’m a loser for buying into the “hype”.</p>
<p>Guess what? At the end of the day, it really doesn’t change my life one iota that these folks think I’m an idiot. I get to smirk behind these people’s backs and they get to bash me to my face (or behind my back… not everyone in my town is a jerk). And because I work in corporate HR/Recruiting, I often have these same folks begging me to spend time with their kids senior year or post grad and help them interview, fix their resumes, figure out how to launch. And yes, there is a little jealousy that my kids were all self-supporting within a few weeks of graduating (luck, hard work, and frankly, a ton of support from their universities) but I freely admit that elite school grads live on Mom and Dad’s couch post-grad at what is likely the same rate as any other college grad.</p>
<p>GFG- your kids all sound amazing. Keep up the good work and don’t let these idiots grind you down.</p>
<p>Ok, how about this? You weren’t good enough to get into the best college now. Or, maybe you were good enough but you just weren’t “special” enough… whatever. If it is very important to you to have that particular undergraduate experience, sorry. If it is very important to you to have an IVY league name on your resume, maybe after you get your BA or BS and you work for a year or two and have a better idea of what you want to do with your life you can go to an Ivy League graduate school. </p>
<p>That’s what I did, and I recall at the time since I had a decent job I felt it would only be worth it for me to quit this decent job if I could get into one of the best graduate schools. I got lucky, got in, quit my job, attended graduate school, and now… meh.</p>
<p>The other reason the saying is dumb is because even if it weren’t untrue in a particular instance, it is stating the obvious to a student who already knows it. It is an annoyingly “duh” comment to make to a smart young person.</p>
<p>PG, I was answering the question of why I care. I care about misinformation, lies, and deception about pretty much any topic. Granted, truth is elusive, but there is very little allegiance to it in our culture and an awful lot of victimization and rationalization. I particularly dislike when people mislead CHILDREN out of ignorance, ego, or evil.</p>
<p>So, yes, I dislike it when parents refer to extremely hard-working kids who sacrificed so much for the privilege of attending a top school as “just lucky.” It is apparently not PC to acknowledge that the kids now attending elite schools all WORKED their butts off, and there are equally smart, endowed kids who simply didn’t put in the same effort. While admittedly there is an element of luck to admissions, it isn’t going to compensate for laziness. I feel sorry for kids whose parents don’t know which is the best community college for their major, but listen to the popular wisdom from the equally misinformed, and so spend more from their already strapped budgets to put their kids in the CC near the posh neighborhood, thinking it’s better. I feel sorry for the kids whose parents do know, but believe others will be more impressed with a different choice so send their kids accordingly. I feel sorry for kids whose parents encouraged them to apply to HYPS, thinking they could learn the insider secrets and thereby get a discount on the price so Junior can go. Then Junior gets in, they see they can’t afford it, so they tell Junior he can always go there for grad school. Things don’t have to directly concern me or my kids for me to care, and my caring doesn’t imply some hang-up. </p>
<p>Yes, blossom, I know quite of few members of that category of bashers too. Definitely irritating.</p>
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<p>I personally know of three. Each had an acceptance in hand - one was was to Harvard, one was to Stanford, and one was to Caltech. The circumstances are different in each case but the thing they have in common is that all three allowed themselves to be talked out of enrolling their high-end colleges and instead went to various local state schools. All three are now adults with perfectly adequate careers, but all three bitterly regret not having “gone for it” and enrolled in their dream schools.</p>
<p>And back on the original question: I think there is huge difference between telling kids that they can “always go to (X) for grad school” and telling them that they can always apply or can always try again at grad school time to get into (X). The former is so seldom true that saying it constitutes a major deception bordering on an outright lie. The latter is reasonable and perfectly true.</p>
<p>TheGFG, I can see your passionate about uplifting the oppression placed down upon attendees of the elites, but don’t you think you’re preaching to the wrong peeps a bit?</p>
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Well, it depends on what CC regulars are reading this thread.</p>
<p>Back in the dark ages, I was one of those kids whose parents refused their kid the Ivy-like university education and consequently attended a po-dunk 3rd-tier school, but I managed to attend an Ivy grad school. So yes, I’m the poster child for the “kid who did it”, but I’d not wish that experience on any kid. My parents could afford the Ivy schools; they just refused me the privilege (not a financial issue in my case), preferring to limit my opportunities. We insisted that our kids attended the best school where they could gain admission and was “good fit”.</p>
<p>I think, and base my opinion on my personal experiences as well as my friends’, that the relative prestige of your undergraduate school has/had a tremendous impact on your career (and your social circle) opportunities, particularly for those under 50. Rarely do you see a news article now that references a young person (under 40; I’m showing my age) who attended a po-dunk undergrad school who consequently became a “mover-and-shaker” in their field or profession. And yes naysayers will cite “black swan” examples otherwise, but generally speaking, and certainly as portrayed in media now, America is not a particularly socially-mobile society, even less so than England, and prestige-related opportunities that occur when you attend a prestigious college program outstrip those opportunities available to the other college grads from 2nd-tier and even more so 3rd-tier schools.</p>