Please settle a debate DH and I are having over how useful having a "talent"is in admissions.

Applying to College
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A hook in the traditional sense is something that is foisted upon the admissions office. Perhaps by a coach or the development office or by the board /trustees in terms of diversity. So @citymama9 , you are right that it is not really a hook. Nobody is going to be telling the AO “if she meets the threshold for admissions, she’s in.”

But… even if she doesn’t plan to do it at school, it is an interesting spike that makes her different from kids who played soccer or violin. I would imagine that there is a seed of a great essay in trapeze – whether about pursuing a passion she probably will never use professionally because of what she loves about it, taking risks, taking "conventional " dance talent to a different place – that could make her application stand out and shout “pick me!” An essay that captures the thrill of flying would be memorable. And quite possibly, helpful!

Colleges are looking for what different types of kids will bring to campus. Sometimes it’s a direct result of what they do. Sometimes it’s a result of who they are. And I think that what she has learned from this – including knowing she no longer wishes to dance – is valuable. If she is really in tune with herself and can express her thoughtsaround that, so much the better.

My kid refused to prepare an arts supplement for his instrument because he didn’t want to play in college. He felt that saying otherwise lacked integrity. He left said instrument at home. Yet he somehow found several other musicians and plays and performs jazz with them – on an instrument he never formally studied during high school! My point is that LACS like kids to explore. She has shown already that she has the ability to do that.

42

Very helpful ^^^^

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@citymama9 Even if your D doesn’t plan to continue her interest in college, it could serve to make her memorable. Like, imagine in admissions committee, she could have the moniker of ‘trapeze girl’ which may make her more memorable and stand out from the hundreds of other girls who have similar scores and stats

44

My advice: let your daughter be the master of her own application process. Dance is not going to get her into any program unless it is an audition-based program … otherwise it is simply something your daughter can choose to share, or not.

My daughter was also a high school dance major at an arts high school, who did not intend to pursue dance in college. Unlike yours, she did want to share information about her talent with colleges— she included a dance resume with her applications as well as a very short video showing some of her choreography – and that included a highly selective college that didn’t have a dance department or dance major, and which accepted her. But she had other great stuff in her apps, too… and definely no mention of the dance stuff in any admission letters.

So bottom line: it never hurts to include positive information in an application. And submission of an arts supplement is not a commitment to major or minor or even participate in arts in college – it is just an additional piece of information that a student can choose to share.

But again – this is your daughter’s journey, not yours. Perhaps your daughter now sees college as a chance to grow away from childhood interests-- and for whatever reason, she doesn’t see dance in her future. So let her own the process. Fine to offer suggestions… but given that your daughter has vetoed the idea of a dance video for now… it’s off the table. It’s not as if dance is some sort of magic ticket that will guarantee admission anywhere – bottom line, it’s a fairly common activity. Plenty of other applicants will have dance training and experience.

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@calmom that’s great that your D had other strong ECs. Maybe she had time because she danced during the day as part of her school? The problem for us is that D21 is at a regular school, not a fine arts one. On the plus side, she will be two of 750 kids in her graduating class who are part of a ballet dance company so, at least among that group, she definitely stands out. And managing to pull that off also shows some serious time management.

46

I agree with @calmom’s point that it is a fairly common activity for young women. Maybe not at your child’s school but among applicants as a whole, admissions will be used to seeing other dancers and some will have other activities/interests. Definitely include it and it may help but unless the school is specifically looking for dancers for certain programs it has, I’m not convinced it helps that much.

47

I didn’t say that my daughter had other strong “ECs”. I said that she had “other great stuff”. “Stuff” includes grades, courses taken, essays, LOR’s etc.

Years ago my son had almost no EC’s at all… and got into great college because he had great grades and test scores… and he targeted wisely. Some schools that were safeties for him have since gotten very competitive-- but some, including the one he chose to attend, still have acceptance rates above 50%.

So the point is that no student needs to focus their application around an activity they don’t wan to continue – if she doesn’t want to – but students should be realistic in targeting schools. So find a LAC that takes 50%+ of applicants and where the students grades/test scores seem to be in the upper half of the applicant pool… and that’s a match.

I always thought that the greatest benefit my daughter’s dance experience in terms of college admissions is that she had plenty of experience in not getting selected. Plenty of auditions where someone else got the part. Plenty of experience attending competitions and not winning. Opportunities to see that often no matter how hard she tried there was someone else who could dance better than she could; and also opportunities too that judges and other decision makers sometime end up making choices that are harder to understand.

So again – it can’t possibly hurt to include an arts supplement in any application… but the student should be the one who decides how she wants to portray herself to colleges.

48

I really can’t believe it’s that common. We live in the Chicago area and there are only two places in all of metro Chicago where girls dance ballet as much as D. She’s trained by Russians who grew up in Russia and danced there and in the US. There are a LOT of competition dance kids but D’s studio does not compete. They dance for paying audiences and have guest artists in their shows like Gillian Murphy. Plus, she’s not home schooled like many ballerinas. I hope her resume will stand out from any pack of dancers!

49

I always thought the best part of dance was that dancers are used to and actually come to want and appreciate constructive criticism, something many others have a hard time dealing with.

There are plenty of ballet programs in this country and a lot of them aren’t competition based. If your child has auditioned for selective summer intensives, you get some sense of that. Additionally, though, at schools that aren’t specifically looking for high caliber ballet dancers to fill specific programs that are likely audition-based, some of the nuances (hours per week, intensity, competition vs not, technique level, etc.) are going to be lost on your average adcom who likely and understandably has only a cursory understanding of the ins and outs of the dance world. I’d be surprised if those details specific to your child’s program will be appreciated and weighed over other young women who also were committed to dance for many hours per week but who participated in less rigorous training.

Also, in my personal experience, I’ve seen a high correlation between dancers and strong academic achievement.

I’m not saying it won’t help but I wouldn’t overweight the help it might have at schools that aren’t actively recruiting dancers or if your child doesn’t express interest in continuing.

50

Constructive criticism. That’s one way to put it! I don’t think D has heard “good job” more than twice in the 12 years she’s been at her studio. The dancers who make it through senior year are all experts at taking criticism. As for ballet competitions, I agree that there are a ton of amazing dancers at YAGP but many of them are (a) home schooled and (b) are looking to dance professionally at 18. Of the ones who are at school and will go to college, a good number will want to major in dance. D is just in a weird spot where she’s as competitive as some of these kids but knows what it’s like to be a professional dancer and isn’t interested in that life.

I’m guessing that not too many of them are taking honors and AP classes at a tippy top public high school. I guess her application will have to really explain her ballet experience. I get that most AOs won’t understand. There are two juniors at our high school who are at D’s studio. They scored 35 and 36 respectively on their ACTs and have rigorous course schedules. Neither want to dance in college. It will be very interesting to see how their searches end up next year. They are shooting for some pretty impressive schools.

51

Interesting discussion. Thanks everyone. One thing I noticed is that at many colleges modern dance is the big thing. That’s my D’s strongest area and where she has had the most training (Martha Graham and Horton). However, not a lot of young dancers are trained in those areas. I would imagine it could help her if she contacted a school’s dance dept and sent in an art supplement. As I mentioned though, right now she does not want to do anything with dance once HS is done, and I respect that. I like what someone above said about letting her choose her own path. I just think strategically it could help a bit. It’s not a huge hook, but a little hook at some schools.

As far as being a ballerina goes, it can be helpful if one applies to schools that have ballet programs and one contacts the dept chair. They will understand the quality of training and may put in a good word for the dancer. It really depends on the school and what they need. My guess is that what they really need are people to major and minor in dance, but lots of kids don’t want to do that.

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@doschicos @citymama9 Since there is no way of telling for sure whether a dance supplement will help, but there are reasons to believe it may, what is gained by not submitting it? The OP’s D has dug her heels in about this, but it is not particularly helpful.

She has a very legitimate excuse—she is a teenager. A teenager who is trying to control her future. Yes, it is her journey. But I do not believe most teenagers truly understand the financial implications of their actions. IF she could get merit money by using dance in the application process, does she really understand what that extra money means?

When my D was a HS senior, the guidance department compiled a packet of applications for local scholarships. I heard about these scholarships at a PTA meeting. It seems that there were daily announcements about these scholarships and their deadline, but many students didn’t bother to apply or even pick up the packet.

D was hoping to attend an expensive private college (she had acceptances at NYU, Barnard and Brandeis. ) Our plan was to foot the bill, hoping to leave her debt-free. So I made sure she got the packet and would complete the many applications on time since every little bit helped. Although she would be able to rework essays she had already written for some applications, it would still be time consuming and D was not a happy camper.

The weekend before they were due, some “important” movie was opening on Friday night and someone’s parents were away so there was going to be a party on Saturday night. Of course D wanted to attend both. But I made it clear that she was under “house arrest” until those applications were complete if she expected me to foot the bill for her “dream” school. Luckily, she was smart enough to comply and for two nights had to ignore the pleas of her friends to finish quickly and just write anything. Clearly they were not submitting applications.

Fast forward to Senior Award Night. Almost all her friends were invited to attend. Many of them were ranked in the top 20 range. D was top 5%, as well, but at the lower end of that top range.

The first part of the evening was for departmental awards. Many of her friends won several of these top scholastic awards. They came with impressive trophies, but no money. They were based on their top grades, but had not required an application.

Then the next round of awards were announced. The ones my D “wasted” a weekend applying for. Well things changed rapidly. Since her friends never applied, they weren’t considered. They would have been her top competition as they all had top grades and EC’s.

D ended up winning 8 major awards for a total of $12,500!!! Her friends and their parents were dumbstruck. It’s not that my D didn’t serve some of those awards— she did! (She was president of the school, a top student, well liked, etc, etc), but her friends certainly would have garnered some of them if they’d applied. Several parents actually approached me and asked why my D got them all—and I sweetly suggested that they ask their children if they had applied.

My D and I laugh that for about 15 hours of work that weekend, she earned roughly $800 per hour!

And she genuinely thanked me, knowing she would never had been awarded that money without my insistence that she apply. I believe in some situations parents should step in and not just leave it to kids to figure things out. My D learned the same life lesson as her friends, but she learned it AND had an extra $12,500 in her bank account!!

53

“what is gained by not submitting it?”

Nothing. I’ve repeatedly stated go ahead and submit it. I don’t remember the OP stating her daughter wouldn’t list her dance ECs. That’s different than writing an essay on it or applying for a performing arts scholarship when you have no intention to continue dancing and that is one of the requirements.

54

Perhaps if the studio did compete, you would have a much better sense of exactly how many well trained ballet dancers and how many studios are out there.

I’m not a fan of competition … but that is definitely the place to get a sense of what else is out there.

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If your D isn’t applying to an audition-based program and doesn’t plan to major in dance … then there is no need for a detailed explanation. Because the choice to admit or deny is not going to based on convincing the school of the comparative quality of her dance training. They don’t care if she is better or worse than another dancer. So she will not be evaluated based on perceived dancing ability or quality of training.

My daughter chose to submit a dance resume – but preparing a dance resume was something that was expected and taught along the way at her arts high school — basically everyone had one. The resume was a piece of paper that had a photo of herself in first position arabesque, a list of studios where she had trained, years she had trained, and a list of roles she had performed & companies performed with. All on one page.

Think of it this way: an applicant to an audition based program is hoping to get admitted based on the strength of their dancing – the better she is at dancing, the more likely to be admitted. Academics are important but play a secondary role. A student with significantly higher GPA and test scores but poor technique is going to be turned away.

But for most other college admissions, strength of academics is the primary consideration. So in that context the high academic stat student with the poor technique is going to be accepted over the amazing dancer with the weaker academics. That’s why you end up with the situation you described in your post #35 (college dance productions are “pretty bad”) — and exactly why my daughter had no interest whatsoever in performing when she was at Barnard-- though she did take a handful of dance technique classes along the way – because a 1 point dance class was always a nice addition to the schedule.

So the dance is an EC that rounds out the applicant – but the school is just as happy to admit students who are willing to get on stage and join the total mess that passes for college-level dance as they admit students who have more impressive talents – and in fact, from a yield protection perpective – you could undermine an application by overemphasizing the dance prowess. The college ad com has no way of knowing that your daughter isn’t simultaneously applying for top BFA programs with their school simply being a fallback in case she doesn’t get admitted to her dream program. You don’t want an application that sends the message: “too good for your school”… or the result will very likely be a waitlist.

56

Not true. The private studios tend to be weak on modern training-- but the arts high schools usually have a strong modern focus, probably because the high schools are training with college in mind. Maybe it depends on your definition of “a lot” … but I think that college ad coms see plenty of students who are modern dancers.

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The schools with well developed dance departments open to nonmajors --typically LACs-- also just need warm bodies in the studio classes – that is, enough non-majors (and non-minors) who will enroll in and attend dance classes to allow them to keep offering the array of classes they want to sustain.

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@calmom. They do not compete like competition dancers but do send kids to YAGP so we know that competition. Also, the seniors sometimes audition for ballet companies. I get what you’re saying about the dance resume. Our D’s focus will be her academics on her apps for sure. All I meant by that one comment is that it would be good for them to know how serious she is about her EC right now and that her experience has been at a certain level - enough to impress on them that she has been trained well. It’s like any other EC where it’s good for an AO to know how serious the EC is and at what level the kids are. We would not include a dance resume. I agree that does not make sense I feel she’s not auditioning for a spot in a BFA program.

I look at her ballet just like I look at kids who played a sport outside school. She has friends who are equestrians and their riding shows all kinds of important character traits even though neither of them are planning on riding for a college team.

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I think for my daughter the value of the dance resume was simply that it was an easy way to show the depth of her commitment whether the reader knew anything about dance or not.

My daughter also had an essay was about language and communication that tied in her dance training somewhat. Not really focused on dancing skill, but giving a sense of something she had learned from and through dance.

I’d add that there are probably easily a dozen different way life lessons learned from dance could tie into a common app essay on any one of many different themes: the value of teamwork; resiliency; continual striving to improve; the importance of preparation; persistence; innovation; etc.

And that’s probably a very nice way to tie all the dance stuff into the portrait the student want to present of her interests and goals. For example, the patience, repetitive practice, attention to detail and perfection of technique that is part of ballet training can probably carry over into lab research for prospective STEM major.

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@calmom are you saying many young dancers across the country are trained in Martha Graham by Martha Graham former principal dancers? My D goes to a performing arts HS too where they teach modern dance, but prior to that there was one school in our city that taught MG and one known for Horton, and we’re in a huge city. Lots of schools offer modern/contemporary but not MG and H.