<p>(Am new to this forum)
We all know about Plebe Summer...What happens once the academic year begins? Does the "hazing" (for lack of a better word) continue all year? Or does it let up? This is the only thing that is holding back my daughter from committing.</p>
<p>I went to a weekend visit, and I can attest for the fact that Friday nights, at least, are pretty lax. They were free to go about the yard, attend a Halloween concert, or watch the soccer game. The mid I stayed with did get "in trouble" on Saturday morning when her squad leader asked why their alarm clock went off at 6:30 when everyone was supposed to be up at 6 (or something like that), but he didn't yell in her face or anything - it was more of a firm...discussion.</p>
<p>It depends on the company. </p>
<p>However, let me say, if your daughter is making her choice based on what you stated above, then that is the wrong reason. Personally, I thought it was harder during the 1st semester than plebe summer. Being under pressure is hard to take, but there might be a point too! You just got to "suck it up" if you want to come here because everyone gets it during plebe year. This place is suppose to be challenging, especially during Plebe Year!</p>
<p>When a plebe has an escort, you do not see the real thing. :)</p>
<p>Hope this helps.</p>
<p>For most people, most companies, it improves progressively through the year. There are still chow calls, chopping, squaring corners, etc. But we seem to get more weekends or other days where carry-on is granted.
After a big win, i.e. Army-Navy, many things have relaxed. As you will read, there are many silly aspects to life here, but it definitely gets better as the year progresses. [Although swallowing a "Beat Army" was tough, you just do it and move on. Not that big a deal.]
Just learned, for example, that if we go to Poinsetta bowl on M.O. [movement order] we get an extra day of Christmas leave.
I don't think this is the "only thing" that should influence one's decision to attend or not.</p>
<p>Hazing is the wrong term -- if you look at some historical accounts you and your daughter might be concerned about cruel or painful interactions. These are rare now, and in violation of academy policies.</p>
<p>Once the Academic year starts, there certainly are still restrictions on Plebes, but the environment is different than in the summer. Bear in mind that the specific restrictions are often set at the company level, so some companies are more or less strict than others. Example: One may allow Instant Messaging for plebes, another may not. Also, restrictions can change year to year, or even day to day. Example: plebes ordinarily are not allowed to use their beds (racks) during the day, so no naps. But this week, due to the Army game win, plebes were awarded rack privleges.</p>
<p>I preface with this to say that whatever I or anyone else tells you about plebe restrictions is subject to change -- so these are only general comments that may not be relevant to a given company or a given year. So, IN GENERAL.... once the Academic year starts some of the attributes/restrictions of plebe life MAY include:</p>
<ul>
<li>Chop while in Bancroft</li>
<li>Chow calls</li>
<li>Rates (although these are more centered on news and professional knowledge than the stuff in Reef Points)</li>
<li>Saturday morning professional training</li>
<li>Restriction to the Yard unless on leave or liberty (liberty is Saturday afternoon/evening, two out of every 3 weeks. The other week they are on duty which restricts them to the Yard.)</li>
<li>No napping</li>
<li>Lights out at specified time</li>
<li>Mandatory weekday breakfast and lunch in King Hall (includes formation before meals) </li>
<li>Mandatory Wed night dinner in King Hall</li>
<li>No civilian clothes unless on leave (eg Thanksgiving). Uniform worn for travel.</li>
<li>No driving a car unless on leave.</li>
<li>No media privledges (e.g. music, TV, etc in Bancroft -- but can certainly go to a movie in town while on liberty!)</li>
<li>Maintain proper professional relationship w/upperclassmen.</li>
<li>Follow a million silly rules that only apply to plebes -- such as not being allowed to sit down on the Yard.</li>
</ul>
<p>On the other hand, she will have:
- Access to her cell phone, a room phone, email, maybe AIM
- Some free time -- that is, time between classes which can be used to read, study, make phone calls, personal fitness, etc. But no napping.
- Several overnight liberties (some need to be "earned" such as winning a football game). Overnight liberty is usually noon Saturday, or after the football game, until 6 Sunday.
- Training from the upperclassmen continues, but the intensity of yelling, etc. lightens up (as described by marmadillo above.)
- No PEP (physical training) unless failing physical standards
- Various extracurricular activities: intermural athletics, varsity or club sports, Drum & Bugle, choirs, etc.
- Opportunity to participate in out of town trips to away football games which sometimes include overnights at a host house or hotel.
- Have visitors on the Yard (but never in Bancroft -- and that's not just for plebes!)</p>
<p>Of all the midshipmen I've ever asked the answer is usually the same: being a plebe isn't miserable -- it's annoying. Even Plebe summer is mostly described in two words: exhausting and annoying. If your daughter is committed to the goal, she will be fine. Plebe year ends, Herndon is great, and apparently you never appreciate a little freedom until you've lost it for a while.</p>
<p>What oiixxg specifies is pretty much spot-on, although the use of the word "may" is, IMO, wishful thinking unless things have COMPLETELY gone to hell since I graduated.</p>
<p>However, if the amount of useless screaming at plebes has dropped down, then I'm all for it. It is a VERY bad leadership style, and was too often all that was taught in my day. I learned my lesson the hard way, but learned it very well. Screaming has it's place, and when used properly can be far more terrifying than the guy who just won't shut up.</p>
<p>I'm not sure I'd call Plebe Year just "annoying", though. In my day, it was a bear, and in earlier years (60's and early 70's) it was a living nightmare. I hope they have found a way to put the plebes under as much pressure as possible without losing sight of the goal of developing a LEADER who can operate UNDER PRESSURE with CONFIDENCE.</p>
<p>The biggest lesson I took away from USNA is that, if you put your mind to it, you can accomplish ANYTHING. Determination, dedication, confidence, attention to detail, patience. THAT is what USNA in general, and Plebe Year in particular, teaches you that NEVER goes away.</p>
<p>Hee hee -- I used the word "may" on purpose to head off anyone who felt like nitpicking my list, e.g. "well in MY company..." or "but last year..." </p>
<p>Full disclosure: my exposure to midshipmen is relatively current. The midshipmen I reference that I have asked this question are those either at the Academy now or graduates within the past 5 years. While none have ever used phrases like "living nightmare", I certainly don't want to imply that Plebe year, or the Academy experience across all 4 years, isn't extremely rigorous. </p>
<p>No question about it -- it's a pressure cooker even w/out "useless screaming". The rules that Plebes have to live by are annoying, not painful. After all, nobody ever died from chow calls or not listening to music for a year. But the constant pressure is something else all together. Too much to do & not enough time to do it, no excuses, fatigue, no excuses, constantly being evaluated for every aspect of your life, no excuses, difficult coursework, no excuses etc. Did I mention no excuses? The fact that you also have to wax your floor and scrub your showers till they sparkle is an annoyance, but it just might send you over the edge when you add it to the pile of other things you have to do.</p>
<p>MamaSparrow: if your concerns are about activities that you would consider hazing, I hope this board can reassure you and your daughter that she will be safe at USNA. But attending USNA is chosing -- with eyes wide open I hope -- to subject herself to a crucible that will transform her. It won't be easy and often it won't be fun. </p>
<p>I would recommend she ask herself if hearing about the pressure cooker experience attracts her or repels her. It's not for everyone. The midshipmen I know who are really thriving at the Academy are the ones who say that's what drew them in -- they wanted to be put through the fire, they wanted to be pushed to their limits and beyond.</p>
<p>May I ask, what is chop, and what are chow calls?</p>
<p>Couldn't agree anymore with all of the posts. Just to reiterate...all the training (most part) is company level (the discretion of the Company Training Officer in conjunction with the Company Commander)...though a few times last year, brigade training and the DepDant stepped in.</p>
<p>Comparing plebe training in our company this year with last years, this years is exponentially easier. We had 0530 uniform inspections (against MIDREGS...couple upperclass got fried for that) however no one complained. A few interruptions during study hour (by training sgts...strictly prohibited by MIDREGS....again, no one complained). Forced to be in WWB uniform until TAPS (DepDant). Forced to see an opera, taking up the entire study hour (DepDant) and you aren't gonna tell an O-6 it is unfair. Constantly begin rated and on all-calls as an entire class--almost entire year. I honestly could keep going on and on with more. My point is...plebe life is annoying and this is what your daughter may step into and she will not be able to stand up and say, excuse me, but this is all against MIDREGS, because 3 things can happen, 1) life will get worse in the boundaries of what is allowed to go on, 2) bad aptitude ranking, which equals lower class standing and 3) you will get fried (conduct offense) for breaking MIDREGS for a) not knowing plebe rates, b) not participating in the 4/c indoc system. </p>
<p>I am sure many years back it was not even comparable to this. I am sure in other companies, plebes have it worse than our company's.</p>
<p>Thank you all for your input...I will take it to heart and relate it to my daughter.</p>
<p>The things you all mention are those that she is fully aware of -- she attended Summer Seminar (loved it), camps, official recruiting visits, etc. Discipline is not the problem --I think that she is most concerned about dealing with all the restrictions, in particular those that are placed on the Plebes that first year. </p>
<p>It is difficult for a young, inexperienced, 17 year old person who is anxious to go out into the world, to weigh all of that against attending a more "lenient" college or university ...especially when her peers can't wait to get away from home and party, and whose influence suddenly seems to be all-encompassing as they make their college choices. My daughter's concerns tend to relate to "I don't know if I want to sacrifice my freedom and put up with all of those restrictions."</p>
<p>I know I'm not alone when I say that this is a difficult situation for parents who try and guide their child, who can look beyond the moment at the bigger picture, and do not want to "pressure".</p>
<p>Don't guide her. Listen to her, help answer her questions (honestly and open minded). It must be her that wants to go and wants it bad enough to have no problem reminding herself of that desire everytime she feels overwhelmed.</p>
<p>See: <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=117285%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=117285</a></p>
<p>Excellent information from Zaphod!</p>
<p>On the other hand, I think that is precisely what you should do: guide her. That's what good parent do: guide, direct, explain, and generally help a 17-year old [who most likely is not well equipped to see the long picture] make a life-changing decision.
Ultimately, of course, it is her decision. It is too easy, however, for young people to make decisions with long-term consequences in response to short-term problems. [That is why the incidence of suicide is much higher for young people than it is for older people.]
There are many threads on this site in which parental involvement has been discussed. If you are doing your job correctly, it is YOUR wisdom, experience, guidance, and love that will help your daughter make a decision that is right for her.
I am proud of the relationship we have with our son, who calls us regularly to share his Academy experiences. I am proud of how we helped him in the application process. I am proud of the discussions we had in helping him make a decision. I am proud of how well he has done so far. In short, I think our guidance was very important to him.</p>
<p>It is a balancing act for sure. Many will accuse you of living vicariously through your daughter [or some similar nonsense]. Don't worry about what others say. You will do what is right for you and your daughter.</p>
<p>One aspect of being an effective parent is helping your children avoid the sorts of mistakes that you made as a child.</p>
<p>To more directly answer your question . . . everything said in this thread about the progression of the first year reflects our son's experience.</p>
<p>Forgive me if I go on a bit here but this is a subject that is near and dear to my heart.</p>
<p>First, too often on this board we see postings that contrast the "honor of attending an Academy" with "partying at civilian college." This is a serious disservice to our children. Trust me -- midshipmen party. Maybe not as plebes, but upperclassmen sure do. </p>
<p>And while I don't deny that SOME civilian college students may party excessively, many more are serious about using their college years to explore the many possibilities of how to best use their lives. At 17 very few people have enough experience to truely know where they belong in the world (heck, most people I know aren't so sure at 50...) </p>
<p>Your daughter may be expressing her conflict in simplistic terms like "I don't know if I want to trade my freedom for all those restrictions" but what I hear in those words are "I'm 17, I don't know who I want to be yet, and I don't know if attending an Academy the right way for me to find out." </p>
<p>The years between 18 and 22 are ideal for exploration, for trying many new things, meeting many different people. The reality is this: there are doors that open when you attend a military Academy but there are many doors that close as well. </p>
<p>As far as I can tell, there are things worse than turning down an
appointment, and one of them might be accepting the appointment and dropping out a year or two later. I'm not talking about the "lost time", I'm talking about the potentially unavoidable feelings of failure (no matter how supportive your friends and family are) or the shame of knowing you took a spot that could have made someone else's dream come true.</p>
<p>The Academy experience is not for everyone. That doesn't make one person strong and another weak -- just different. It's not a question of right or wrong, good or bad -- just different. </p>
<p>MamaSparrow: your daughter is 17 and world is just starting to open up for her. She is asking all the right questions. Please do not interpret "guiding" her as knowing what's best for her. I know you love her, and may know her better than anyone in the world, but you don't have a crystal ball and in the end, it is her and only her who will have to live with the decision she makes this year. As others have said -- be there for her, listen to her, ask her non-judgemental questions that help her put form to her thoughts, fears and concerns. And most of all, be sure she knows that you will be no less proud of her if she choses civilian college.</p>
<p>Picture her for a moment as a teacher of disadvantaged children, an international aid worker, a medical researcher who makes the breakthrough that cures diabetes (or the engineer who perfects the artificial pancreas), a Habitat for Humanity coordinator, a hospice nurse, a negotiator for international trade agreements that changes the course of a developing nation's economy. None of us knows where our children's lives will lead them, and service takes many forms.</p>
<p>As long as "guide" is more like assist instead of steer...she will be fine. There is lots of reading out there. Has your daughter read the Naval Academy Cadidate Book by Smallwood? I recommended my son not get serious about the academy until he read that book! The book raised many questions. Some I could answer, some I could speculate (clearly identified as such to my son), some I could refer to others. Most of his questions were answered by squad leaders at NASS and by serveral people on his weekend visit. Still others have been answered over thanksgiving break by midshipmen visiting his high school.</p>
<p>The important thing is to be informed as much toward the realities of the next nine to twelve+ years of their live as possible. You can't get a reasonable feel for this by just hunkering down for the "I can take it" role. It takes lots of reading, observing and questioning to become reasonably prepared for such an intense experience. Of course many survive and succeed in the experience without truly questioning the path and motive of such a commitment before jumping in. But I'm sure the drop out rate is higher for those who aren't true to the human inquiring nature.</p>
<p>Has your daughter applied for an ROTC scholarship? This is a great backup plan for many and if selected, the assigned unit will contact your daughter and encorage inquiry. My son was impressed with the calls and immediately started investigating the unit on their web site. He was so impressed, that before he was exposed, he had not considered that any college experience could compete with USNA. Now he knows if he gets in to both his first (USNA) and second choice (ROTC Scholarship) schools, he will truly have a decision to make. And he knows the more info he gathers, the better choice he will make.</p>
<p>Guide: (n) One who shows the way by leading, directing, or advising. One who serves as a model for others, as in a course of conduct. A person employed to conduct others, as through a museum, and give information about points of interest encountered. Something that serves to direct or indicate. A soldier stationed at the right or left of a column of marchers to control alignment, show direction, or mark the point of pivot. </p>
<p>Guide: (v) To direct the course of; steer: guide a ship through a channel. To exert control or influence over. To supervise the training or education of. </p>
<p>Guides lead; they steer others in a direction appropriate for the circumstances. That may mean leading your daughter towards or away from the Academy. We lived with our son for 17 years; we had a reasonably good idea of whether or not this experience would work out for our son. It has. [Even though USNA was a surprise when he mentioned it as a possible college choice.] Parental involvement is not a light that switches off on the 18th birthday. [He has not said Plebe year restrictions were unbearable. Does that mean the year is not even a "bear" anymore?]</p>
<p>MamaSparrow - let me weigh in here as a mother of a just turned 17 year old girl who wants to go to the Academy as her 1st choice.</p>
<p>One thing I am observing by talking to parents of mids/ candidates/ BGO folk, Congressman's office people and my own daughter...... is that there has to be a certain 'mindset' for a young person to have a successful Service Academy experience. This is not something that one imposes on a person - it absolutely has to come from within. Parent input, parent desire, the young person's desire to please others, the ideas of 'free schooling' - NONE of these will carry a person through plebe summer, let alone 4 years at any Service Academy.</p>
<p>We are fortunate that my husband is USNA '72 - so when our daughter started talking about her desire for military service - she could go straight to her dad. Let me say, however that dad was long done with military service...and none of our children ever knew him in that role. In fact it was a complete shock to both of us to hear her talk about this as her first choice and only after much begging on her part did my husband begin to open up to her about the really tough parts of choosing USNA for 4 years. ONe thing I can tell you is that my husband is not a quitter. When he makes a decision based on his best call of the right path - he stays on that path no matter how hard the cost. I think that mindset is what made him survive his Academy experiences. He left a Minnesota, pastor's son, farmboy, quiet, peaceful rural life with absolutely no clue about what he would encounter 5 minutes after arriving on I-day and the 4 years coming. It was more than a culture shock to him. Yet his mindset carried him - even when there was nothing else to keep him committed to staying.</p>
<p>I think the thing your daughter needs to think through is - what do I want? What do I really really want? What do I want more than anything else for the next few years of my life? These are great questions - and there are no 'perfectly right' answers.</p>
<p>Some young people really want a regular college experience...the dorm life, the sleeping in, the missing classes, the weekend road trips, the parties in dorms till all hours of the morning. I have 5 children and we've launched 4 into and through college/Master's Degrees, so we have alot of experience in private/public colleges....Christian/secular colleges....and close to home/far away colleges. Each of our older children had to make their own decisions based on what they felt best matched their personal educational goals. </p>
<p>Child #3 went to UCLA and in her dorm was a young man who turned down an Appointment to USNA to attend ROTC at UCLA. This person stood out in the crowd of that wild dorm due to his personal choices to go ROTC - stay in shape....keep his military haircut....and study. Yet he loved his experiences and proudly wore his Ensign uniform on Commissioning Day, just like any other midshipman would have. Bottom line now? He is happy as a clam on sub duty in CT....and feels his experiences as a student in a regular college experience round out the officer staff of those from USNA - with their military college background.</p>
<p>I would encourage you to help your daughter think about the kinds of questions I am raising....and then listen to her answers as she ponders them.</p>
<p>Some young people want to be pushed and challenged beyond their normal limits...others need to find their own inner pace to experience their world. Child #1 might have no problem at USNA....child #2 might tank and burn. Both could end up as fabulous Naval/Marine Officers 4 years later.</p>
<p>You can send me a personal message if you want to talk more about this with me directly. As a mom with a young girl who told me on Sept. 11th 2001 as a 12 year old she was going to become a military officer and serve her country...I have had alot of years to think about these kinds of things with her.</p>
<p>Good job mom, for having a daughter considering military service!!</p>
<p>Lots of excellent advice! If I can add one additional thought, it would be to make sure she is exposed to everything- or at least as much as possible- academies, universitites, liberal arts colleges, public and private institutions, big and small and everything inbetween- start your list with her major (if she knows where her interests lie at this stage of her life- many don't) - but then start narrowing the list from there. When you whittle down to a reasonable list, start visiting- and then do overnight stays for those she is seriously considering.....it will declare itself over time. She will know what feels "right" to her- so the best thing you can do is make sure you expose her to as many opportunities as you can. As many, many have said- it needs to be her choice in the end- she will be the one going through it when things are not-so-peachy with the roomate, etc.....if I might suggest, "guide" carefully- I would suggest "support".....it is very easy to overstep the boundries of being an objective guide and becoming a subjective parent from you-know-where. Don't fall into the trap of that struggle- I watched 18 of our daughter's friends come home before thanksgiving of their freshman year because they went to daddy's alma mata instead of the school they wanted- or because mom wanted the sticker on the car- so support- guide carefully- keep an open mind just as you ask her to do! And best of luck!</p>
<p>And the number one question to ask is if she is completely aware of and ready for a regimental lifestyle and a military obligations after that Plebe Summer. Its hard when they are so young and haven't been there & done that so its a serious thought and she'd be well off to find someone to talk to who has been through it. SS might be a cake walk compared to living it on a daily basis. Compound it with the difficult course load and you've got one tired kid. I send twinkies. The sugar rush is good for him! She will have to have the tenacity of a bull to pull it off. Physically & mentally. Although Plebe summer doesn't last all year, the regimented lifestyle is still there. Its tough but do-able. Luckily for my kid, he went into his academy knowing what to expect so I've heard no complaints about his duties. Except about some racoon that terrorized him during one 3 am federal watch he had to stand.... He said it was three feet tall with rabies and red glowing eyes that wanted his sammich. :) The only thing that surprised him I think was the lack of sleep. He averages four hours a night but is pulling As & Bs with 19 credit hours in some tough classes. He gripes about being tired alot. He hasn't lost focus as to why he is there. To serve this country. And he thinks he's down right "sexy" in that uniform.... Plebe year "sucks" he says. But he says he's so pumped about next year when he can put his energies into things that are important to him (Sea Year & eating noodles in Japan). You've got some great great advice here. These people are awesome! They've helped me bunches. Weigh her apprehensions carefully. She's got to want to serve rather than go after any self promoting goals or she might end up disappointed. Tough decisions are always so two handed. Good luck with it all.</p>
<p>
[quote]
She's got to want to serve rather than go after any self promoting goals or she might end up disappointed. Tough decisions are always so two handed.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>JM: you always hit the nail on the head! </p>
<p>And not to worry, the rabid ones only come out during the day!</p>
<p>
[quote]
May I ask, what is chop, and what are chow calls?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Chopping is what plebes do to move around Bancroft Hall. They are not allowed to walk. They must "run". Chopping is a method of running where the plebe picks their knees up, holds their forearms parallel to the deck, and remains braced up. At each corner, they execute a cut corner (90 degree turn) and sound off with either "Go Navy, Sir!", "Beat Army, Sir!", or some similar motivating slogan. It's a bear when going up stairs, let me tell you.</p>
<p>Chow calls are "announcements" made by plebes at 10 and 5 minutes before the meal formation. Imagine rattling this off:</p>
<p>"SIR, YOU NOW HAVE TEN MINUTES TO EVENING MEAL FORMATION!</p>
<p>EVENING MEAL FORMATION GOES INSIDE!</p>
<p>UNIFORM FOR EVENING MEAL FORMATION IS WORKING UNIFORM BLUE ALPHA!</p>
<p>THE MENU FOR EVENING MEAL IS BROILED STRIP STEAK WITH SAUTED MUSHROOMS AND ONIONS, BAKED POTATO WITH SOUR CREAM, TOSSED GREEN SALAD WITH RANCH DRESSING, CANNONBALLS, ORANGEADE, COFFEE AND MILK!</p>
<p>THE OFFICERS OF THE WATCH ARE: THE OFFICER OF THE WATCH IS LCDR FAIRSON, 1ST BATTALLION OFFICER! THE ASSISTANT OFFICER OF THE WATCH IS LT SAMPSON, SEAMANSHIP AND NAVIGATION DAPARTMENT! THE MIDSHIPMAN OFFICER OF THE WATCH IS MIDN/LCDR ONEAL, 2ND BATTALION COMMANDER!</p>
<p>MAJOR EVENTS IN THE YARD ARE:</p>
<p>1900 SCUBA CLUB MEETING - SCUBA CLUB OFFICE
1900 DRUM AND BUGLE CORPS PRACTICE - FARRAGUT FIELD
2100 FORRESTOL LECTURE - HALSEY FIELD HOUSE</p>
<p>TEN MINUTES, SIR!"</p>
<p>...as fast as you can without slurring everything together (because the 2/c in front of you with his nose to yours might not appreciate it), as loud as you can.</p>
<p>Now, for those of you who have never seen it, it's a hell of a show. One minute before the call goes, plebes take their stations at each corner of the hall. In a three-way "T", there will be one plebe facing in each direction. All eyes are on the hall clocks, which conveniently go "click..........CLICK" at the proper instant. Right then, throughout the Hall, about 750+ voices start ripping through the above as loud and as fast as possible.</p>
<p>Happens again at five minutes. Same as above, except for the finish:</p>
<p>"TIME, TIDE, AND FORMATION WAIT FOR NO MAN!
I AM NOW SHOVING OFF!
FIVE MINUTES, SIR!"</p>
<p>If you're lucky, some upperclassman will shove you off early (usually because they don't want to be bothered by you bellowing outside their door). If you're NOT lucky, you may end up doing countdown chow calls (every minute from 10 to 5), or the ever-exciting "meals on wheels", where you are rattling off the menu to the next meal wherever you chop.</p>
<p>Ah..... the joys of being a Plebe!</p>