<p>^^ I was under the impression that only a few of the so-called “Founding Fathers” (notably Jefferson) were deist.</p>
<p>isn’t there anything more important to debate about than this? honestly, who cares…just treat the pledge as the pledge. Really, I’m not offended, and I don’t care. Why do people have to argue about something so trivial…your just stressing yourself.</p>
<p>Do you just sit around all day trying to think of these ridiculous topics?</p>
<p>I saw it on the ABC Evening News about how the North Carolina Secular Association was launching a campaign against this phrase so I decided to put it up for CC debate.</p>
<p>
Separation of church and state meant something different in the early 19th century (when that phrase was established). The first amendment says that Congress may pass no LAW, the Pledge of Allegiance is not a law.</p>
<p>
Deism and Christianity was not that far apart in the early 19th century. In fact, Jefferson himself believed in Christ, but not the supernatural part.</p>
<p>
If you want to act more like how Christ wishes us to act, go read Matthew 6:1-6.</p>
<p>
There’s also the bit about not judging people.</p>
<p>
Consider the bit about spreading the good news to all creatures. Also I don’t ever remember Christ telling anyone to condemn anyone. I do however remember him telling people that they can’t through the first stone unless they haven’t sinned.</p>
<p>
I would suggest reading the Declaration of Indepenence, particularly the first couple of paragraphs.</p>
<p>
Yes, I’m familiar with that passage, and often tell it to people who yell at me for missing a Mass. However, you told me to read this after I said that I wanted more Christians to behave in the manner that Christ did. I do not see how this is a way to refute that. I stand by my statement that the world would be a better place if all 2 billion or so Christians acted like Christ</p>
<p>
Indeed there is, but that is not an excuse to ignore societal ills. Nor does it mean that we ought to ignore those claiming to follow Christ but blatantly violating his tenets, while advocating policies that would harm the poor that were so dear to Christ.</p>
<p>
Condemning the rich in the way that he said that it is virtually impossible for a rich man to enter heaven (condemning a rich man to not go to heaven because of his riches). Granted, I feel that an all-good God would not permanently condemn anyone to suffering, but still, Christ’s statements on the rich stand. Also, yes, I did mention the part about not throwing stones (under condemning the death penalty), but you seem to have cut it out of my quote (and my other quote above that one).</p>
<p>
In the Declaration of Independence, I notice references to a Creator, but not to Christ. Ah well.</p>
<p>The pledge itself is offensive. An anachronism from the days of blind nationalism.</p>
<p>^Interesting. Yes, this has occasionally unsettled me, especially given that young children are taught to say it. For a time, I refused to say the pledge (not sure if I still am, haven’t had a chance in over a year anyway), because of various injustices in US society. “Liberty and Justice for all” sounds laughable to someone living in poverty.</p>
<p>^but then again the US is built on capitalism, not socialism.</p>
<p>^^Indeed, but it doesn’t mean I have to like it. Nor that capitalism doesn’t clash with equality and the rights associated with the right to life (the rights to food, water, shelter, safety, health) that the Declaration of Independence promises (though not so much the Constitution, I know). I don’t want to pledge allegiance to capitalism.</p>
<p>Ah Columbus, a shining example of the ability of absolute bat**** crazy people to etch themselves indelibly into history.</p>
<p>ikr? Let’s celebrate a guy who was a complete failure and wiped out half of the population of Hispaniola! Among other things…</p>
<p>Clemson doesn’t take Columbus Day off (or Veterans Day or Patriots Day or Labor Day) anyways so it doesn’t matter for me :)</p>
<p>Chris Columbus, first illegal immigrant</p>
<p>(though people should be allowed to move freely throughout the world, especially the “land of opportunity”… but for Columbus: genocide = bad)</p>
<p>I don’t understand why people don’t want to say the pledge, versus just take out parts like the title.</p>
<p>^^ He didn’t even set foot in what would be the modern-day US. More reason for why it’s stupid for us celebrate him.</p>
<p>I never stood up when we supposedly had to say the pledge for this very reason until one of my teachers insisted that we all stand up. “You don’t have to say it, but stand up!”. So I just stood there and looked offended. Other teachers would be like “What, you aren’t going to stand up and say the pledge?” Apparently high schoolers aren’t supposed to have personal opinions on things. </p>
<p>As for why we should care about this? It’s words we’re supposedly supposed to believe in, as Americans. It’s supposed to be a verse that shows what this country stands for. If there are hundreds, thousands, or possibly even millions of people in this country who do not believe this way then of course it’s important!</p>
<p>It’s not just the massacres of natives that make Columbus so absurd, it’s that sailing west was so utterly and obviously stupid. And if you read some of the bonkers things he wrote, you’ll be truly chagrined that such a character has a national holiday.</p>
<p>^If I recall correctly he had a God complex didn’t he? Felt he was the second coming or something? It’s been about a year and a half since I read the last history book that mentioned him (Failed the class incidentally, but not because I didn’t know history. Couldn’t get into the “flow” of the class format).</p>
<p>So basically, I don’t recite the pledge because it’s a mix of Christianity, Christopher Columbus celebration, and xenophobia.</p>