<p>and yes if you break the law you should know what the consequences could be but that does not mean that one needs to accept the consequences or think that they were right/just and should not protest them.</p>
<p>"Attempting to force entry into a university (i.e. private) building"... he was a Brown student?! did it not occur to anyone, especially given how often it happens and how people don't have access to other peoples dorms, that this could be a Brown student. or was it the case that, because he was black, he was more likely to be a thug/providence community member, and because of this the cops thought it was a case they should send someone to check on. My assumption is that were the person white probably no one would call and if someone did call the police would not follow up because they would assume it was probably a Brown student. now, maybe you disagree, but my point is there is no way to tell/hold the police accountable for this. they are totally free to pursue some calls of suspicious persons and not pursue others.</p>
<p>yeah, by my logic, police at the time, would have been correct in arresting rosa parks. If she had made a "threatening gesture" they would have been correct to respond with force as well.</p>
<p>Agree to disagree regarding how to handle an officer I guess. I would certainly not risk personal safety to make a point like that, but if you are willing to do so, be my guest.</p>
<p>And ladyk, no one is arguing whether the call should have been made. That is irrelevant. The fact is THE CALL WAS MADE and the police have to respond. The fact that they asked to see Brown ID before jumping to a conclusion shows that they understood there may have been a mistake.</p>
<p>But in this case, someone did call. To determine if he was a Brown student police asked for him to provide an ID. This is within their rights, and his refusal to comply was not within the students. The pursuit was also within their rights and within protocol.</p>
<p>I'm not saying the issue does not raise potential problems with how current policy is implemented and doesn't put a magnifying glass on the racism that exists within even our own community. What I am saying is simply that once the call was made, DPS had a right and duty to respond. They responded appropriately by approaching the student and asking for identification. The student fled and they responded appropriately by pursuing. I don't know the details of the ensuing brawl or alleged brutality, but don't come down on the police for doing the right thing once that call was made.</p>
<p>As for excessive force or not, I honestly don't know nearly enough about the situation to make a judgment on that.</p>
<p>also, the police absolutely would respond to the call. Do you realize the legal ****storm they would be in if that white person ended up committing a crime and the police had record that they were called and didn't respond?</p>
<p>I'm glad they chase suspicious people. If you aren't up to anything then you shouldn't walk away from a cop. Common freaking sense. </p>
<p>Last year a "suspicious person" was chased and arrested for gaining entry to MY DORM and stealing laptops from people. Someone called in that they saw a suspicious looking person walking around in the building.</p>
<p>Ladyk the rosa parks comparison spoke much truth and is an argument I never considered. I made an error in stating Chipalo was wrong while simultaneously arguing that the logic behind the policy is racist. If resisting racism makes one "wrong", then the Brown community has a problem. </p>
<p>"Vague descriptions are not inherently racist."</p>
<p>Modestmelody, I agree with you which is why I never made that claim. I said that such decriptions were unprofessional, inefficient, and many tiimes racist. Your statement would ring more true if it read: "Vague descriptions are not inherently racist, but can become a catalyst of racism (via racial profiling) in a society that operates on oppressive stereotypes and generalizations." </p>
<p>"Now, go back, and replace black with white and white with black. Same question?"</p>
<p>You posted this after giving a DPS scenario. Earlier when I said that if I called DPS and stated that I was robbed by a white person, my purpose wasn't to highlight white privelege in America, which as we know is alive and wel. My point was for you to consider the magnitude of the suspect list. Thousands of white males attend Brown university, only a couple hundred black men rest on college hill. This discrepancy in numbers makes it easier to racially profile people of color at Brown. </p>
<p>"I'm glad they chase suspicious people. If you aren't up to anything then you shouldn't walk away from a cop. Common freaking sense."</p>
<p>Wolfmanjack your argument is mssing the nuances at play, nuances that has taken us a couple of days to work through. In order for us to have a progressive conversation new posters should read earlier posts. </p>
<p>"also, the police absolutely would respond to the call. Do you realize the legal ****storm they would be in if that white person ended up committing a crime and the police had record that they were called and didn't respond?"</p>
<p>I agree. But the nature of that response is what is at play here. Earlier I stated that perhaps DPS simply showing up to the area might be good protocol for vague descriptions. That, I argue, is much better than targeting the black kid in baggy clothes (re-read my first post if you can't make the connection) or beating a student down.</p>
<p>Thanks for letting me know how a forum works. I read the whole thread before I replied and didn't comment on many things involved. I commented on what I wanted to comment on. I'm not here to serve your discussion how you feel it should be served. </p>
<p>I didn't comment on whether he should have been beaten because I don't know anything about what happened other than a) call made to DPS and then b)person questioned refused to cooperate</p>
<p>We can stop right there at B. Even if the kid thought the cop was a member of the KKK that is not the time to refuse to cooperate. When you don't cooperate with police, whether they are right or not, you frequently run into "Don't tase me bro!" situations. Common sense. It's not a time to be political or self righteous. I've been stopped by police for no good reason other than being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Did I refuse to show ID and walk away???? Take a guess.</p>
<p>and:</p>
<p>"When a black Brown student wears cornrolls, baggy clothes, and basketball sneakers, the Brown community percieves this (subconsciously or not) as him delineating himself from the stereotypical "Brown student" and aligning himself with the stereotypical "Providence gang member.""</p>
<p>I don't know you're background but I grew up in a sketchy neighborhood myself and knew many gang members. I don't know how wearing "black" style clothing makes someone a gangster and nor do I believe that people at Brown in general make that connection. Meanwhile, wearing that same thing that a gang member would wear doesn't help your chances of not looking like a gang member when the police come around. People at Brown won't bat an eye at someone who has the popular black style. But if a cop is told to look for a black person possibly trying to get into a building, they are going for the person who looks the most like the people who commit crimes. I know what people who commit crimes like robbery look like MOST of the time and they usually aren't wearing Haggar slacks and a polo. Common sense. Also, on a more unimportant note they're called cornrows not cornrolls. I don't know your background but you really sound more like an academic trying make a case for racism than someone who grew up in the bad part of town and really understands these things from a reality standpoint.</p>
<p>This reminds of when people were whining about security personnel profiling Arabs at airports. No we have to be fair and search the 80 year old retired libarian for bombs and not the person from the Middle East. Yes, this makes total sense.</p>
<p>One more: Rosa Parks doesn't even relate here. She was sitting in a place only for white people and refused to move. Rosa Parks was not outside a building early in the morning fitting a description (right skin and clothing color is something to go on), she was just a person who chose not to obey a law that she didn't like. The person beaten at Brown was questioned, not told to leave or that he was under arrest, then chose not to cooperate for whatever reason (doesn't really matter). At least that's how I understand the story.</p>
<p>Some people call them "cornrolls" come people call them "cornrows." AND you don't know anything about me or my background.</p>
<p>"I don't know how wearing "black" style clothing makes someone a gangster and nor do I believe that people at Brown in general make that connection."</p>
<p>You don't make that connection? Interesting. But later you assert:</p>
<p>"Meanwhile, wearing that same thing that a gang member would wear doesn't help your chances of not looking like a gang member when the police come around."</p>
<p>So I shouldn't wear the clothes that belong to my culture, my neighborhood, so I won't be percieved as a threat in the Brown community? It looks like you just proved the argument of my first post. </p>
<p>"This reminds of when people were whining about security personnel profiling Arabs at airports. No we have to be fair and search the 80 year old retired libarian for bombs and not the person from the Middle East. Yes, this makes total sense."</p>
<p>Until the day terrorists recruit whites to harm American people, if that has not already happened. </p>
<p>This is purely speculative, but I find your need to make multiple responses after your first post indicative of the fact that you didn't read through prior comments in depth as I had pointed out. With our differences aside, I think you should read them in depth and in their contexts because there are insightful arguments and comments made on both ends of the argument.</p>
<p>"I don't know how wearing "black" style clothing makes someone a gangster "</p>
<p>Me neither. That's why I didn't say it. What I DID say was that wearing wearing such clothing makes one percieved as either a threat, not belonging to the Brown community (i.e. not being a Brown student), or both.</p>
<p>You're right I don't know anything about you and that is why I said you SOUND like etc etc...If I'm wrong and you grew up in a bad urban neighborhood be the first to prove me wrong. Or am I right???</p>
<p>I made multiple posts because I actually have things to get done and had to stop and do something else. Just how it came out. It's not really necessary to even relate how I post messages to how well I understand something. You just made two posts yourself, does that mean I should say you haven't been reading into my posts enough? It's ridiculous. People call them cornrolls because they don't know they are actually called cornrows which sounds much like cornrolls obviously. It's still not the correct word. What is a corn row? A row of corn similar of a hairstyle. What is a corn roll? Perhaps a hairstyle similar a row of corn aka a cornrow? I think we cleared that one up.</p>
<p>"You don't make that connection? Interesting. But later you assert:"</p>
<p>Right, students have no reason to make that connection and understand there are people from different places at their school. However, the police at Brown know that the people who most often rob people at 3am fit a certain profile. That happens to be a profile shared by innocent Brown students and people who cause trouble on occasion. The hipsters from Providence aren't usually the ones robbing people early in the morning now are they?</p>
<p>"So I shouldn't wear the clothes that belong to my culture, my neighborhood, so I won't be percieved as a threat in the Brown community?"</p>
<p>If my culture and community made me look a lot like a skinhead should go and try to get into a building at 3am in a place where skinhead looking people rob innocent people? I can, but when a police officer comes I better not give him any grief for singling me out because I FIT the profile of the people who most often commit crimes around that area and fit the description given to the police in the first place.</p>
<p>"Until the day terrorists recruit whites to harm American people, if that has not already happened. "</p>
<p>Not even worth responding to that one.</p>
<p>"What I DID say was that wearing wearing such clothing makes one percieved as either a threat, not belonging to the Brown community (i.e. not being a Brown student), or both."</p>
<p>And that I disagreed with. I know and am glad I go to school with black people who wear baggy clothes. I am friends with black people who wear baggy clothes at Brown. It is just unfortunate that similar looking people commit crimes around the same neighborhood which makes people a bit more sensitive their look.</p>
<p>yeah, by my logic, police at the time, would have been correct in arresting rosa parks.</p>
<ul>
<li> this is a key point upon which we disagree. The cops were racist in arresting parks because the law itself was racist.</li>
<li> (1) the cops were wrong because they beat him without him showing force (you can say how you dont know but you do know because there were witnesses there who said it so
? not really sure how you can claim the cop was right/not racist)<br></li>
<li> (2) to get back to rosa parks, the ID policy itself is racist. Now, it would be one thing if the policy was that EVERY call there was a response and that response ALWAYS involved checking ID but this is not the case. The policy is racist because it is ALLOWED for it to be used in some cases and not used in others and cops sometimes come when there are calls and sometimes dont and sometime card and sometimes dont and are basically allowed to use racist biases.</li>
</ul>
<p>The fact is THE CALL WAS MADE and the police have to respond.</p>
<p>Yes, this logic would work if it was true but its not. The police do NOT respond to EVERY case. They do NOT send someone out for every case. This begs the question, why, in this case did they choose to send someone out? Because it was a black male. Now, you can say the police should always send someone out. Thats one thing. But it is NOT ok for the police to in suspicious cases to send someone out but NOT to respond to other calls. The fact that they would answer this call and not answer others shows the racism of dps.</p>
<p>the police absolutely would respond to the call. Do you realize the legal ****storm they would be in if that white person ended up committing a crime and the police had record that they were called and didn't respond?</p>
<p>No legal storm.
It happens all the time especially in the case of sexual assault where people, not even vague descriptions, are reported and there is no finding that person to say anything to them, to get their ID, or to arrest them. This is done with mostly white males who are mostly Brown students.</p>
<p>how are these not racist policies? how are these actions taken by dps not racist?</p>
<p>Like I said I was speculating. I made two posts simply because I wanted to address the same quote in two different ways. And I am not going to argue with you about black venacular and lingustics. </p>
<p>Now back to the point.</p>
<p>"students have no reason to make that connection and understand there are people from different places at their school."</p>
<p>That simply is not true. Like you probelmatically said, "the police at Brown know that the people who most often rob people at 3am fit a certain profile," why then are you making Brown students exempt from such stereotyping? Both students and police officers, staff members and administartors make such assumptions and those assumptions are racist. </p>
<p>You said you wouldn't respond to to the idea of white terrorists, what about the Oklahoma Bombings and the 1996 Summer Olympics? And yes I believe that if we limit our notions of who terrorists are, racially speaking, we are giving foreign terrorists amunition. BUt this again nis beside the point of this forum.</p>
<p>"If my culture and community made me look a lot like a skinhead should go and try to get into a building at 3am in a place where skinhead looking people rob innocent people? I can, but when a police officer comes I better not give him any grief for singling me out because I FIT the profile of the people who most often commit crimes around that area and fit the description given to the police in the first place."</p>
<p>In other words when a police officer stops me because I am black I should not complain. When a police officer is operating under racist policies I should not complain. When a police officer says I'm going to stop YOU because you don't look like a "Brown student" I should not complain. When Rosa Parks was told to move from her seat she should not have complained. When millions of black men, women, and children who protested Jim Crow laws were lynched in America's South their families should not have complained. When slaves rebeled and were later beaten to a pulp they shold not have complained............. </p>
<p>It's funny.... this thread came out of a discussion about whether TWTP should include white students. So often we talk about how white students need to hear the lessons shared during the program and change their biases. But we often forget that such change comes at the price of the community of color at Brown loosing its safe space. How can students of color be empowered when hearing wolfmanjacks racist remarks and other comments like them? </p>
<p>This was simply a side note and should not steer us off the topic of police brutality at Brown.</p>
<p>Wolfmanjack, you can respond to me but I cannot continue speaking with someone as racist as you. You can enjoy the freedom of pulling my quotes out of context, micconstruing my ideas and arguments, and injecting racist remarks into this forum. I will not respond.</p>
<p>ladyk, I can assure you that I, a white student, have been asked by the police to show my ID any time they are in my presence in response to a call (and as a very involved member of Brown's Greek community, I would actually bet that I have had to deal with the police more times than you have).</p>
<p>Please show me validated evidence that the police have explicitly not responded to calls regarding white people committing crimes, then I'll start to believe you. Just because they don't find someone doesn't mean they aren't trying.</p>
<p>Just like you say I can't be sure he fought back, you can't be sure the witnesses didn't miss one of the motions that to a normal person is not fighting back, but to the police is. Unless you've read the transcript of their testimonies, unless they gave a Joe Tessitore blow by blow account, it's not unreasonable to think they missed something.</p>
<p>I don't care if the policy is racist. (I mean I do, but in my opinion, it's not relevant here) whether or not the policy is racist, it is the police's job to enforce that policy. When you are staring down the barrel of said policy, in my opinion, it is not the time to disobey unless you're willing to deal with the consequences. There's a reason why none of the witnesses came to his defence during the incident, but did rally around the protests. There's a time and a place for everything, and the student chose the wrong time to take a stand against an unjust policy.</p>
<p>Maybe one day you'll get it, maybe not. But one thing I know for sure is that day is not today. I've discussed racism with multiple races in group discussions for long periods of time and have never had anyone call me a racist. So chalk one up for yourself!</p>
<p>"and the student chose the wrong time to take a stand against an unjust policy."</p>
<p>Thank you for reiterating that point, if there is in fact an official racist policy (this hasn't been verified as far as I can tell).</p>
<p>Did the DPS officer actually tell him he didn't look like a Brown student? And I was thinking he stopped him because he fit the description...hmmm.</p>
<p>I just don't see how it's difficult to see that it's quite possible that the DPS officer could have thought, "This is lame and stupid, probably just a student," and assumed he could just get an ID and be done with the issue. What impression is he given when the student not only refuses to comply but walks away?</p>
<p>And there is no way DPS is not responding to every call made. No way. Do you have any idea the issues that would exist if DPS is informed of a potentially dangerous situation, does nothing, and then that situation escalates? There is NO WAY that happens on campus. It's a HUGE liability issue and the whole point of having our own campus security force is to be able to quickly respond to any situation and gauge the threat.</p>
<p>I don't care if the policy is racist
Yeah, I noticed. On this point we just dont agree. I dont believe in following the law simply to follow the law. I believe the law should be in line with morality and only through challenging laws directly (as in disobeying them) can change really be made.</p>
<p>Please show me validated evidence that the police have explicitly not responded to calls regarding white people committing crimes
Give me your box number or an address and I will drop off/send you the reports. You can also go right to DPS and ask for the reports filed against DPS. You can even just ask for the ones in which the police were found guilty of neglect and get those and you will see. The fact is it happens. Its on all kinds of records so do your research.
DPS is NOT responding to every call made.
Do your research.</p>
<p>you can't be sure the witnesses didn't miss one of the motions that to a normal person is not fighting back, but to the police is. Unless you've read the transcript of their testimonies
No YOU cant be sure the witnesses didnt miss something because you have an unreasonable amount of trust in police and have not dont know enough about the case. Educate yourself.
so that you think everyone must be wrong except that police officer? There is a reason the officer that attacked the student was found guilty of misconduct, unless you think this incident of misconduct which is now on the officers record is also missing something. So everyone was missing something, the witnesses, the chief of police, the student themselves? The only one who did not miss something was the officer who was beating the student? Because that officer would never wrongly beat someone? Because the police could never do something like that? Please, give it a break.</p>
<p>I really feel like the people in this forum are going off of nothing. Read the transcripts and look at the records and look at the cases (even cases that have been won) against DPS. yet every year the same **** continues. this is why people protested DPS and formed CoPAIT</p>
<p>I hate to drag this thread out again but I just spoke to someone "in the know" about what actually happened. This individual said that when the student was first confronted and asked for his ID his response was, "F--- you!" He then fled to the street where a Providence cop in a DPS car approached him and yelled at the man and asked for his ID again. Again, the person being pursued said, "F--- you!" and pushed the police officer. The office then, according to procedure, took the suspect down. In the process the suspect hit his head on the ground. </p>
<p>So why did the officer get charged with misconduct?</p>